P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm very surprised that the 2.0 recording seems to have better imaging than the fancy 5.1. I tried the 5.1 with and without the center speaker and sub, and just can't get the imaging as clear as with the older CD.
Like ADTG, I also prefer the old stereo recordings and I hardly touched my collection of 5.1/7.1 SACD/DVDA/BD any more. Stick with well recorded source and you will be happier. I listened to the 802D several times when I was shopping for speakers a few years ago. To me they imaged fine, relative to many others I have listened to. I am sure some can do better, such as the Revel Salon 2, or KEF blade for example though I can't be sure without doing some comparison listening, but I still think the 802D does well enough within that price group. You just may have to experiment more on positioning them like others have suggested already.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I think imaging also has a lot to do with how your own perception is shaped. I don't know if this anecdote is one hundred percent relevant, but I'll tell this anyway. I used to play a computer game, an online first person shooter, some years ago with a computer that is used for music production, so it only had a simple pair of studio monitors for a sound system. Even though it was only a two channel system, I could hear exactly where every other player was, whether they were behind, beside, above, or below me, I knew right where they were and I could nail them before I even saw them. I was accused of cheating on many occasions, and I thought my big advantage was that my speakers were TOTALLY AWESOME! Except they weren't, they were good but not great, and now that I know a lot more about audio, I realize they were very poorly placed and wouldn't have imaged well at all they way I had them set up. As I learned more, I came to understand that it wasn't my sound system which helped me understand the spatial relationships, it was how my hearing or my at least perception acclimated to the sound field because I had played so much. In other words, what helped me was that I had NO LIFE - but because of this I could at least understand what the sound system was trying to say.

BOOM HEADSHOT
 
Y

yetanotherlogin

Audiophyte
To understand why it's so hard for systems to image in a way that "matches" a live performance, you have to consider the entire chain.

Let's simplify it for just an example and consider a live concert where a recording is made. You sit in a seat in the audience and listen to the concert. You hare hearing sound from individual instruments arriving at your hears from a particular location on stage. What your ears get is the direct sound from the instrument, and a lot of reflected sound from all surfaces in the venue. Your ears localize the instrument, yet hear the room in a three dimensional acoustic space.

Now consider the recording chain. There are mics, which don't have the directional characteristics of a pair of ears on a head on a neck on shoulders, etc. Most mics are actually mono pickups with either a cardiod or omnidirectional pattern. No one mic can sample the 3d soundfield, and even the few that claim to cannot do it in a way that matches the hears of every possible listener. There will be many mics, some spotted on instruments, some as spaced pairs, some as closely spaced X/Y pairs, and perhaps any of the combinations of pairs of mics on trees. If it's not an orchestra you are listening to, it's likely the recording will use fewer stereo pairs, and more "spot" (mono) mics. But none of the mics used will be at your head in your seat, they will probably be in locations you could never be.

So far, the electrical signals the mics produce bears no resemblance to the acoustic signals arriving at your head in the audience because the mics aren't were you are, and are of totally different design than your ears. Then, these signals get mixed to 2 or more channels, and we'll ignore the fact that the monitor system used in the mix won't match your system for now.

Now, you play that recording on your system in your room. What you hear is sound coming from your speakers, which aren't on a stage in a large 3D acoustic space, they're in your room. Their location can't possibly match the location of the original instruments in even the most basic azimuth and elevation. You're now hearing just two (or more) discrete sources. Again, ignore that their method of sound generation isn't the same as the original, and crash forward. Your ears hear the sound from the speakers, but also all the reflections coming off all surfaces in your room. None of those reflections existed in the original space. You also have the "mask" of the speaker's response, which didn't exist in the original. If you could remove all reflections from your room and just listen to two perfect speakers, you will have some darn nice imaging, but it will be wrong. Why? Both your ears are both hearing both speakers, which means the best you can do for a phantom image is to get your head exactly on the center line between them, but even then a phantom center signal won't be "real" because your ears are still hearing both speakers, effectively, a several microsecond delayed reflection. So the most tangible sound image will be when a sound comes from only one speaker (doesn't happen much these days). All other sound positions will be very different in size and location from the original soundfield.

Without going any farther you can see that it's pointless to ever think we can replicate the original. And that's not what anybody's trying to do anyway. What recording engineers and producers are trying for is an acceptable and pleasing rendition of the original performance. Sort of like an impressionist painting doesn't try for accuracy or reality, but is still pleasing.

Better imaging in a room can be had by eliminating as many early reflections as possible by either eliminating the reflective surface with treatment, or directing sound from the speaker away from it. But, even at its best, you can't ever replicate the original space, especially with just two channels. Front imaging with a 5.1 system is different. The phantom center is no longer an issue, almost anywhere in the room. But you still are dealing with an impression of the original. With more channels come more variables, and more chances for the recording engineer to create something more dimensional. But even 5.1 is limited in its ability to localize, basically in a distorted circle that connects the speakers. Height and Width channels help a lot in creating a 3D space, but so far we have no accessible content recorded that way, and must therefore depend on a spacial synthesis system to create artificial height and width.

There's no blaming the problem on the mics only, or the mix only, or the speakers or room only, or, especially, the recording medium which of all other links in the chain has the least impact on the input signal. But to maximize imaging, you have to eliminate as many extra influences that weren't present in the original as possible, and be certain that all front speakers match in character. You won't do that with a different, special "center" speaker. And the recording should have been produced specifically for your speaker layout. No fair re-mixing stereo to 5.1 if you want "reality", though some stereo > 5.1 processes can produce a very pleasing impression. Speakers that image best tend to have smaller or more unified sources, at the expense of sounding "large". They also tend to have more controlled coverage pattens (dispersion, or directivity) that avoid directing sound to possibly reflective surfaces.

There are some speakers that are designed to sound big and spacious, but break all the rules. These would be the bipolar or omnidirectional types, or types that deliberately point sound at reflective surfaces in the room. People confuse large, spacious sound with "imaging". It's very different, and though they can also be quite pleasing, there won't be much in the way of a tangible image. Again, not really "wrong", or "right" if it's pleasing and you like it.
 
J

josko

Audioholic
Imaging is very dependent on the capabilities of the speakers, and I've never heard the B&W 800 series throw an awesome image. I'm not saying they can't, but I've had several extended demo sessions with 800Ds and 802Ds at two different dealers and the imaging didn't impress me. The dealer set-ups were pretty good too. It's always been a mystery to me, because the 800 series looks like it should throw a great image, all that narrowness and roundness.
I wonder if the fact the B&W 800 series is ported detracts from its' imaging ability. I'm thinking that a sealed speaker would have a simpler impulse response which 'might' be desirable from an imaging perspective.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I wonder if the fact the B&W 800 series is ported detracts from its' imaging ability. I'm thinking that a sealed speaker would have a simpler impulse response which 'might' be desirable from an imaging perspective.
If there were a lot of ringing from the ports, that could cause a problem.

Nonetheless, I've heard sealed speakers that couldn't image if their life depended on it, and I've heard ported speakers that can image like crazy. I've also seen ported speakers that can put out a darned nice impulse response as well.

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/89/L vs18.1 impulse passive.jpg

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/66/N xref12 impulse response.jpg

Without looking up or being familiar with the speakers in question, I doubt you'd be able to tell which one of the two was ported.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
If there were a lot of ringing from the ports, that could cause a problem.

Nonetheless, I've heard sealed speakers that couldn't image if their life depended on it, and I've heard ported speakers that can image like crazy. I've also seen ported speakers that can put out a darned nice impulse response as well.

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/89/L vs18.1 impulse passive.jpg

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/66/N xref12 impulse response.jpg

Without looking up or being familiar with the speakers in question, I doubt you'd be able to tell which one of the two was ported.
I agree. The Revel Salon 2 is ported and images better than any other speaker I've heard.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
There's a lot that can be done to improve imaging and that's already being discussed. I just wanted to add in that, all but insurmountable, is that you will be playing from speakers.

They can reproduce the echos from the studio correctly for positioning, but they themselves will echo off the walls in your room; and the timing to your ears will also exist in the reality that there are only two source points.

Shy of earphones, there will be limits.

But let none of that discourage you from the improvements that can be done.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I wonder if the fact the B&W 800 series is ported detracts from its' imaging ability. I'm thinking that a sealed speaker would have a simpler impulse response which 'might' be desirable from an imaging perspective.
I guess nothing is perfect. I wish I could afford a pair of 802D, even just the original version. To me they are probably among the best sounding speakers in their price group, and as good as the Blades I recently auditioned. We all have our own favorites and will say all sorts of nice things about our picks but unless you have a chance to do a proper comparison yourself, you cannot be sure if they really sound better and/or image better than yours. May be the imaging you are getting is as good as most systems and may be you can improve it by trying different things. At the end of the day I hope you will soon succeed and can focus on enjoying the music.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I wonder if the fact the B&W 800 series is ported detracts from its' imaging ability. I'm thinking that a sealed speaker would have a simpler impulse response which 'might' be desirable from an imaging perspective.
The Salon2 is also ported on the bottom like the 802D, yet most people say the Salon2 images extremely well.

I think the 802D images as well as any speaker.

But don't expect ANY speaker to image exactly like real life unamplified symphonies. :D
 
J

josko

Audioholic
But don't expect ANY speaker to image exactly like real life unamplified symphonies. :D
To me, the crux of the matter is that I don't know what's possible, what to shoot for and what to expect when I get it 'right'. It feels like a kind of a 'blind man's bluff' tweaking my setup here and there without really knowing what to look for or when I got it right.
And don't get me wrong, I really do like my 802D's and the rest of my 5.1 setup.

And it's really surprising to me that imaging is better without the (HTM1D) center speaker. Up to now, I thought the whole point of the center speaker is to help out with imaging.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
To me, the crux of the matter is that I don't know what's possible, what to shoot for and what to expect when I get it 'right'. It feels like a kind of a 'blind man's bluff' tweaking my setup here and there without really knowing what to look for or when I got it right.
And don't get me wrong, I really do like my 802D's and the rest of my 5.1 setup.

And it's really surprising to me that imaging is better without the (HTM1D) center speaker. Up to now, I thought the whole point of the center speaker is to help out with imaging.
For music, I don't believe in the use of a center speaker. To me it makes things worse so you are not alone if you feel the center makes things worse in your set up.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
To me, the crux of the matter is that I don't know what's possible, what to shoot for and what to expect when I get it 'right'. It feels like a kind of a 'blind man's bluff' tweaking my setup here and there without really knowing what to look for or when I got it right.
And don't get me wrong, I really do like my 802D's and the rest of my 5.1 setup.

And it's really surprising to me that imaging is better without the (HTM1D) center speaker. Up to now, I thought the whole point of the center speaker is to help out with imaging.
For music, I don't believe in the use of a center speaker. To me it makes things worse so you are not alone if you feel the center makes things worse in your set up.
There is a very good reason many of us prefer to listen to music in 2.0 or 2.1. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Not really like that at all.
You are right it does sound like a bad analogy. I meant to say if we have to use more speakers for imaging, then no matter how many we use there will always be gaps, like 8,16,24,32 bit,there is no end to it. With more channels, you still have to rely on phantom effect between those channels. With more speakers, unless they are all of the exactly the same type, and currently on the market they typically are not, we end up with speakers that have different characteristics and that could also affect the depth I would think. I am sure there are good reasons why I feel two speakers sound better than three to me. I am no expert in this field at all, so I am just speculating what some of the reasons may be.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
There aren't any gaps in bit depth. Bit depth determines only dynamic range.

Here's an article. Audio bit depth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And sampling rates need only be slightly more than 200% the highest frequency you are concerned with.
I wasn't talking about bit depth at all, I was simply using an analogy, that in digital there are gaps, so if you use more channels/speakers you have gaps, unless you still emply phantom effects which I am sure multichannel recording still do though I do not the details. Further, more bit gets you more resolution, that is a given. Regardless, with digital you do have gaps (discontinuity) by nature but of course the question is at what point it matters not, due to human limitations. Again, I was not even talking about what you were thinking at all, and as I said/admitted I did use a bad analogy in the first place so there is no reason to debate any further on a totally different topic.:)
 
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