Why Is It That People Can't Do Basic Math?

BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
6-1x0+2/2=?

Seems easy enough, but looking at responses on Facebook, over half the answers are wrong.

I see how people get it wrong, but then they argue when you suggest that they are wrong. The best is when people say "The answer is (insert wrong answer) you F....... - only a moron would get that wrong!"
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
7, on a slightly related note I'm always amazed at how many suggestions for systems here are way over budget. It's fairly common to see 150-200% stated maximum budget even when someone lists a desired and absolute cap.

On a more related side note, I am so very bad at mental math that at this point I don't even try to get exact answers anymore and have perfected my ability to guestimate. I'm usually fairly close.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Also most modern calculators do order of operations for you, so with that in mind the wrong answers are even sadder. People couldn't be bothered to bust out a calculator to see if they were correct before arguing?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
That's basic ?!? :eek:

The reason people suck at basic math is because math is hard.

That problem had a gozinta which combined with the other order of operations stumbling block before coffee had me get the wrong answer twice. Who needs math, anyway? I just need a bigger amp.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I think your a answer is wrong but I'm bad at math...

The answer is 7. You use order of operations to solve it. PEMDAS- Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication and Division (left to right) and then Addition and Subtraction (left to right)

Wait, you said 7...
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
The answer is 1 you F....... - only a moron would get that wrong! :eek:

:p

Luckily, there is no test required to get a FB account, so we can just sit back and enjoy the show. :D I do wonder how many people are arguing just to screw with people, though.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I think the biggest problem with math in the US is that most jobs these days don't require any math at all, and like any other skill if you don't practice it you lose it.

I think young people in school also see that most jobs don't require math skills, so they're much less inclined to put any effort into learning math, thinking it has all the usefulness of learning Latin. Finally, math education, in the US at least, continues to be the abysmal process it has always been, favoring those to which math is intuitive, and often leaving behind those that have trouble thinking with symbolism.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Yeah, the answers truly are a strong indicator of how poor things can be in the education system.

I guess what gets me is that if someone is going to bother to answer, then they should at least be willing to check after they answer to see if they are right. Better yet, if they are arguing with someone to prove they are right, then perhaps they should also bother to check their arguement for accuracy somewhere besides their own minds.

The most common answers I've seen:
0 (because anything times 0 = 0)
1 (do the equation from left to right, ignore PEMDAS)
3.5 (ignore the 0, it doesn't matter)
5 (follow PEMDAS to the letter - Addition BEFORE subtraction - 6+0-1=5)

An occassional 4 or 8 in there as well, but 1 and 5 are easily the top wrong answers.

I did check on a number of calculators I have available... My iPhone answers it properly with it's standard calculator, my Windows PC calculator only answers it properly if it is in Programmer or Scientific mode. Google also answers it properly if you just type the equation into Google.

Really disappointed about our country sometimes.

Anyone got a $1000 system they can recommend for me? I've got $500 to spend.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Finally, math education, in the US at least, continues to be the abysmal process it has always been, favoring those to which math is intuitive, and often leaving behind those that have trouble thinking with symbolism.
For math, that's ultimately what it comes down to: conceptual thinking. Once you gain understanding of how a given formula works instead of just being able to recite it like you would the date for the Pearl Harbor attack, it makes things much, much easier.

I think a fair example is looking at the guys that can solve a Rubik's Cube in under a minute. The algorithm to do it isn't really that complicated, but few people know it and understand how it works, which makes it neat to watch. In the end though it's really not much, if any more complicated than the physics of throwing a ball with accuracy to another person thirty feet away.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Why Is It That People Can't Do Basic Math?
For the same reason people can't use simple, common, correct English. If you want to do the math: people=stupid.

Math was easily one of my best subjects, but I have a computer now...:) I don't need to know the math to do my job anymore; just need to know how to get the right info to the computer to let it do the solving. I got bad grades in English because it was boring to me, but I could pass the tests no problem because I understand the way the language works and get grammar and spelling, which many don't seem to. Looking back on it, it would have been easier to ace it than be lazy. Unfortunately, too many take the lazy route in too many things.

On the other hand, you don't need to be a mathematician or English major to be a good person :)
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I think the biggest problem with math in the US is that most jobs these days don't require any math at all, and like any other skill if you don't practice it you lose it.

I think young people in school also see that most jobs don't require math skills, so they're much less inclined to put any effort into learning math, thinking it has all the usefulness of learning Latin. Finally, math education, in the US at least, continues to be the abysmal process it has always been, favoring those to which math is intuitive, and often leaving behind those that have trouble thinking with symbolism.
I agree and disagree. As a math teacher the problem isn't necessarily that if you don't use it you lose it. I mean, yes, the geometry, trig, a lot of the algebra stuff, etc you definitely should lose as time goes on because you probably won't use it. However stuff like PEMDAS and the simple nature of the original problem, people should never use. One thing we try to hammer home is that you should never ever ever find yourself never doing math. Whether it's balancing your checkbook, keeping track of how much your spending grocery/pleasure shopping, or anything else. Nearly everything you do is some sort of math problem that you use to keep your basic math skills sharp.

The other half of that is trying to get students to understand that high school has nothing to do with the actual content. The content is there to make the real reason they're there interesting. Obviously the interesting part is entirely dependent on the teacher, which is sad. Both because there are so many poor teachers out there, but also because there are so many great ones that get a bad rap because generally when the word "teachers" is used, its coming in a negative context. Back to the point. Elementary and high school are a complete head fake. It's all about building neural connections and forcing developing minds to think in certain ways to prepare them for any situation they may potentially run into. Math is supposed to get kids thinking in organized, logical ways and to use reason to solve problems. Science does much of the same things, but also throws in a sense of wonder and curiosity, hence all the experiments. Social studies and English should be the most relevant subjects of all to students and they're usually two of the "dumbest."

I won't bore you with ranting from my soapbox. I will say this about math being abysmal. Whether or not school in general depends on teachers, community, and location in the country/in your state/in your county. All these factors weigh in much more heavily than the actual subject. A quick for instance. My district, in upstate NY located in Ulster county. This place hates education and teachers. It's reflected in the fact that no budget ever passes, it's reflected in who they elect to the school board, and who the school board hires for a superintendent. If you go 10 mins south to Kingston, much different. If you go one county over, it can be much different. Red Hook, only 30 mins away, is a completely different educational environment.

In NY, it also has to do with the tests. We test the kids to death, they can't do any of the math without the calculators because it's more important for them to know calculator tricks than the actual math so that they can do well on the test and can graduate and go to a good college. Now it will get even worse. The performance of the student's on the state exams directly affects a teacher's performance review. The whole system is a mess nationwide. Race to the top? What a joke. Just a rebadged NCLB.

Yeah, the answers truly are a strong indicator of how poor things can be in the education system.
It's also a reflection of the students. On average, the student body coming into schools these days is lazier, more apathetic, more street smart (or so they think), and even dumber because they think they're smarter. Constantly telling kids that they know so much more than I knew when I was your age has turned them into know it all's when they don't know a darn thing.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
It's also a reflection of the students. On average, the student body coming into schools these days is lazier, more apathetic, more street smart (or so they think), and even dumber because they think they're smarter. Constantly telling kids that they know so much more than I knew when I was your age has turned them into know it all's when they don't know a darn thing.
I consider the students, parents, educators, policy, etc. as part of the education system. I certainly do not simply point at the school itself, or a teacher, as a single point of 'the problem'.

Some people aren't there, and they need to fail. They need to have parents understand that their kids aren't there. It doesn't make the kid stupid, but it means that kid is not capable of doing what is required in that aspect. It certainly is a truth in life that just because you want to do something well, doesn't mean that you are capable of doing it well.

But, it is this type of basic math equation that every student should know how to solve by the end of fifth grade, and still know how to solve it at the end of high school. If the student does not know how to apply PEMDAS properly at the basic level, then they should know it, their parents should know it. It should be part of the testing process (if it isn't), but more importantly that testing needs to get back to students, and their parents, and their teachers, so there can be a proper analysis of their deficiencies.

I'm not sure I ever found out what I didn't answer correctly on my SATs... If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I study that and learn how to do it better? How can I improve? Why is it that parents and teachers and students aren't up in arms about this? Seems like the score matters a lot more than actually educating the kids sometimes, and those major tests should be used far less as a measuring stick and far more as a divining rod.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
6-1x0+2/2=?

Seems easy enough, but looking at responses on Facebook, over half the answers are wrong.

I see how people get it wrong, but then they argue when you suggest that they are wrong. The best is when people say "The answer is (insert wrong answer) you F....... - only a moron would get that wrong!"
In day to day transactions who cares? If your an Engineer you better get it right. If you are pushing a cash register it'll tell ya what change to make.
 
96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
lol. I got it right, but I have to give some credit to my kid's homework lessons. She's only 12 but is taking algebra and on occasion ask me for some help.
 
dkane360

dkane360

Audioholic Field Marshall
I agree and disagree. As a math teacher the problem isn't necessarily that if you don't use it you lose it. I mean, yes, the geometry, trig, a lot of the algebra stuff, etc you definitely should lose as time goes on because you probably won't use it. However stuff like PEMDAS and the simple nature of the original problem, people should never use. One thing we try to hammer home is that you should never ever ever find yourself never doing math. Whether it's balancing your checkbook, keeping track of how much your spending grocery/pleasure shopping, or anything else. Nearly everything you do is some sort of math problem that you use to keep your basic math skills sharp.

The other half of that is trying to get students to understand that high school has nothing to do with the actual content. The content is there to make the real reason they're there interesting. Obviously the interesting part is entirely dependent on the teacher, which is sad. Both because there are so many poor teachers out there, but also because there are so many great ones that get a bad rap because generally when the word "teachers" is used, its coming in a negative context. Back to the point. Elementary and high school are a complete head fake. It's all about building neural connections and forcing developing minds to think in certain ways to prepare them for any situation they may potentially run into. Math is supposed to get kids thinking in organized, logical ways and to use reason to solve problems. Science does much of the same things, but also throws in a sense of wonder and curiosity, hence all the experiments. Social studies and English should be the most relevant subjects of all to students and they're usually two of the "dumbest."

I won't bore you with ranting from my soapbox. I will say this about math being abysmal. Whether or not school in general depends on teachers, community, and location in the country/in your state/in your county. All these factors weigh in much more heavily than the actual subject. A quick for instance. My district, in upstate NY located in Ulster county. This place hates education and teachers. It's reflected in the fact that no budget ever passes, it's reflected in who they elect to the school board, and who the school board hires for a superintendent. If you go 10 mins south to Kingston, much different. If you go one county over, it can be much different. Red Hook, only 30 mins away, is a completely different educational environment.

In NY, it also has to do with the tests. We test the kids to death, they can't do any of the math without the calculators because it's more important for them to know calculator tricks than the actual math so that they can do well on the test and can graduate and go to a good college. Now it will get even worse. The performance of the student's on the state exams directly affects a teacher's performance review. The whole system is a mess nationwide. Race to the top? What a joke. Just a rebadged NCLB.



It's also a reflection of the students. On average, the student body coming into schools these days is lazier, more apathetic, more street smart (or so they think), and even dumber because they think they're smarter. Constantly telling kids that they know so much more than I knew when I was your age has turned them into know it all's when they don't know a darn thing.
I think part of the problem is the application of math. At least the math classes I was in, it was just do these problems and then we'll move to harder ones. What could that math possibly be used for? I have no idea. I know someone out there uses the math in their day-to-day life, but I'm not one of them. People have no incentive to put in effort beyond passing if they don't see the reason for it. I'll tell you that I have done MUCH better in classes that I feel are worthwhile to my future. Maybe if kids were given a more hands on approach to math other than putting a bunch of equations on a board, we would see more people taking an interest in STEM careers. If I had known the uses of some of the math I learned before I began perceiving it negatively, perhaps I would've put in more effort and joined my roommates as engineering majors.

And don't think I'm ragging on teachers. I have the highest respect for them and what they do, I just wish there were more good teachers out there.
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I think part of the problem is the application of math. At least the math classes I was in, it was just do these problems and then we'll move to harder ones. What could that math possibly be used for? I have no idea. I know someone out there uses the math in their day-to-day life, but I'm not one of them. People have no incentive to put in effort beyond passing if they don't see the reason for it. I'll tell you that I have done MUCH better in classes that I feel are worthwhile to my future. Maybe if kids were given a more hands on approach to math other than putting a bunch of equations on a board, we would see more people taking an interest in STEM careers.
I agree with you on this that most just try to get passed a subject they don't like or feel is useful, however fuzz is still correct. People are all about motivation and in high school, not enough students have it. You will almost NEVER see the "point" when you are in HS, until you need something that was taught there :) Your job as a student is to learn, regardless of whether or not you understand why it might be useful. You may never end up using it, but knowing it sure doesn't hurt you.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Some people aren't there, and they need to fail. They need to have parents understand that their kids aren't there. It doesn't make the kid stupid, but it means that kid is not capable of doing what is required in that aspect. It certainly is a truth in life that just because you want to do something well, doesn't mean that you are capable of doing it well.
It is a shame that our system doesn't really accommodate these people.

OTOH, my daughter is capable, but she is socially savvy (to put a positive spin on it) and is convinced it is so uncool to be good at math as a high school girl that she puts no effort into understanding. She sees each HW assignment as a task to complete as efficiently as possible without any desire to learn anything; despite a well thought out program from the teacher. Of course, if she had been learning along the way, she would be more efficient at the HW!
 
dkane360

dkane360

Audioholic Field Marshall
I agree with you on this that most just try to get passed a subject they don't like or feel is useful, however fuzz is still correct. People are all about motivation and in high school, not enough students have it. You will almost NEVER see the "point" when you are in HS, until you need something that was taught there :) Your job as a student is to learn, regardless of whether or not you understand why it might be useful. You may never end up using it, but knowing it sure doesn't hurt you.
I wasn't saying he was wrong. Just adding my POV :p

Maybe I wouldn't have seen the point, but it would've been nice if they tried. Knowing the math doesn't hurt, but learning it sure does :D
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I consider the students, parents, educators, policy, etc. as part of the education system. I certainly do not simply point at the school itself, or a teacher, as a single point of 'the problem'.
I agree, although depending on location I think one part of the total system is usually worse than the others.

Some people aren't there, and they need to fail. They need to have parents understand that their kids aren't there. It doesn't make the kid stupid, but it means that kid is not capable of doing what is required in that aspect. It certainly is a truth in life that just because you want to do something well, doesn't mean that you are capable of doing it well.
Kids do fail. Hundreds of thousands of students drop out of school every year. It's a major problem in the United States and is a reason we continue to fall behind other countries academically.

But, it is this type of basic math equation that every student should know how to solve by the end of fifth grade, and still know how to solve it at the end of high school. If the student does not know how to apply PEMDAS properly at the basic level, then they should know it, their parents should know it. It should be part of the testing process (if it isn't), but more importantly that testing needs to get back to students, and their parents, and their teachers, so there can be a proper analysis of their deficiencies.
I would argue that simply regurgitating a formula isn't what a math teacher or any teacher should be striving for. I know it isn't what I shoot for. I don't actually care about them being able to do the math, because if my primary goals are met even if they don't remember things exactly, they possess the skills to easily and quickly figure it out. Like I said before, school isn't about the content, even though that's all anyone seems to stress anymore. It's about the neural functions and connections. Strengthening these gives students and people the ability to problem solve and be "intelligent" and "successful" throughout their lives.

I'm not sure I ever found out what I didn't answer correctly on my SATs... If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I study that and learn how to do it better? How can I improve? Why is it that parents and teachers and students aren't up in arms about this? Seems like the score matters a lot more than actually educating the kids sometimes, and those major tests should be used far less as a measuring stick and far more as a divining rod.
The SAT's aren't a formative exam, therefore it's irrelevant what you got wrong. They're a summative exam, supposedly on everything you've "learned" throughout your elementary and high school career. In reality it's more or less a glorified reading comprehension test with pattern recognition (the so called math section) and with a "writing" component that I'm not even sure what that's supposed to tell you.
 

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