Audio Power Amplifer - Suggestion

[ski2xblack]

1) so are you saying that adding a seperate power amp will not change the sound quality as compared to a class D amp ?

Unless one of them is malfunctioning, overdriven, or poorly designed in the first place, it shouldn't. Sound quality is primarily a function of (a)the speakers, (b)their interaction with the listening space, and (c)source (recording) quality. An amplifier should not alter the sound quality at all. If you want qualitative differences, look at the speakers and room, use an equalizer, etc.

Some situations demand more power (large rooms, low sensitivity speakers, desire for high spl, combo of any of these) where inadequate power certainly would result in worse sound quality. That's why you need to determine if you're asking too much of your Pioneer in the first place, using that peak spl calculator.

2) Emotiva is aclass A/B amp and I'm sure the sound quality will be better

There are good amps of each and every variety, and poor amps of each as well. Check out the A/V University if you want to dig into the details of amp technology. We tend to stick to the 'good' ones when making recommendations here, regardless of circuit class.

 

[PENG]

question to all..

Why are these Marantz and other power amplifiers so expensive ???? Do they have something like gold wires or a diomand transformers that make them so expensive ?? OR do thay really have something that these daytone or emotiva or audiosource don't ? Is it just the name or something else ??

I am using a pair of Marantz SC-7/SM-7 (weighs 53 lbs) to drive my Energy speakers that have the following specs:

Freq response:
25 to 45,000 Hz +/-2 dB on axis
25 to 20,000 Hz +/- 1.5 dB 30 degrees off axis

Impedance:
8 ohms nominal (..of course they have low dips)

Sensitivity:
86 dB/W/M

Recommended power:
20W minimum, 200W maximum

Using the Crown SPL calculator, I would need tons of power in my 12X9X25 room that opens to another larger area, sitting at about 3 meters from the speakers. That calculator would also ignore any room gain, just to be on the very conservative side. In real life, I suppose most rooms would yield at least 3 to 5 dB or more from a few meters away. In both my H.T. and music listening rooms, SPL drops only 3 to 4 dB when in open field it would have drop 9.5 dB.

I can tell you when I listen at average SPL of 75 dB, the VU meters on the SM-7 would spend most of the time below 0.05W and rarely past the 1W mark. So much for those talks about how much power their hungry speakers need.

The fact is, you only need hundreds of watts if you listen at average SPL of 85 dB or more, in a large room, sitting at 4 meters or more from the speakers and need more than 20 dB of head room. If you are like me, even with my relatively low sensitivity speakers (86 dB/W/M), even a 100 WPC amp is more than enough to ensure the best possible sound quality you can get from your speakers.

 

[PENG]

question to all..

Why are these Marantz and other power amplifiers so expensive ???? Do they have something like gold wires or a diomand transformers that make them so expensive ?? OR do thay really have something that these daytone or emotiva or audiosource don't ? Is it just the name or something else ??

Google the vintage Marantz amps and check out their weight. My SM-7 is a 2 channel amp. It's transformer is huge, much bigger and heavier than any 7 channel AVR's. It kVA rating is probably about the same as that of the Emo XPA-5, yet the SM-7 is only rated 150WX2 and the Emo is rated 200WX5. The SM-7 also has 60,000 microfarads of filter capacitance, again same as that of the 200WX5 Emo. By extrapolation, I would guess the Marantz also has much more conservatively sized power transistors and heat sinks. All those extras contribute to the higher price. Emo and Audiosource are probably made in countries that have much lower labor costs whereas Marantz, Krell, McIntosh, Anthem, Bryston, Parasound Halo's high end amps are likely made in Japan, Canada, US = higher labor costs.

 

[Sangeet]

Google the vintage Marantz amps and check out their weight. My SM-7 is a 2 channel amp. It's transformer is huge, much bigger and heavier than any 7 channel AVR's. It kVA rating is probably about the same as that of the Emo XPA-5, yet the SM-7 is only rated 150WX2 and the Emo is rated 200WX5. The SM-7 also has 60,000 microfarads of filter capacitance, again same as that of the 200WX5 Emo. By extrapolation, I would guess the Marantz also has much more conservatively sized power transistors and heat sinks. All those extras contribute to the higher price. Emo and Audiosource are probably made in countries that have much lower labor costs whereas Marantz, Krell, McIntosh, Anthem, Bryston, Parasound Halo's high end amps are likely made in Japan, Canada, US = higher labor costs.

All of you guys were completely wrong. There is no problem with the speaker. The problem was receiver. I will send you my detail project report later tonight and how the problem is resolved.

 

[Sangeet]

All of you guys were completely wrong. There is no problem with the speaker. The problem was receiver. I will send you my detail project report later tonight and how the problem is resolved.

OK so here is the project report…..
Phase 1
I visited many of the electronics stores in Houston with my CD (Dire straits) and asked all of them to play same song using a pioneers receiver (if available) using 2 channel stereo. They played this CD again and again in different speakers (from $ 400 / pair to $ 16000/pair). Let’s not discuss on make and model. My overall conclusion was that some were ok, some good and some bad.
Phase 2
I went to a home theater store with my CD and asked him to play my CD on a 2 channel Integrated amplifiers or power amplifiers. These were played in at least 8 different speakers and out of these 8 I shortlisted just 2 sets. I had also packed my receiver (Pioneer SC 35) and kept it in my car and requested the shop manager that I would like to test these 2 shortlisted speakers with my receiver. If it sounds the same I will buy one of them. He agreed. I brought my receiver, hooked it up and bang. Same problem. Looks like the sound doesn’t have the punch and fullness. Even the manager agreed. We worked on my receiver controls and option but nothing. After working on it for an hour both of us gave us and agreed that It was strange. Let me tell you that the store owner is a veteran on audio and stereo equipment. He is about 60 year old and is associated with this field for 25 years.
Phase 3
We got a NAD power amplifier and connected that to the pre out of my pioneer receiver. This was connected to the same speaker that I had liked. But same problem.
Phase 4
The dealer had some old integrated amplifier (Onkyo Integra A 8800) and we connected this to the speaker that I had like and the sound was 10 times better than my receiver. I took this amplifier at home and connected my JBL ES 90 and man, it sounded toooo good . I couldn’t believe that it was the same old JBL. They had so much of power, punch and clarify that I was amazed. I could hear each and every instrument clearly and the sound was so crisp. They were 10 times better than any of the system that I heard in phase 1 above.
Conclusion :
Problem was receiver, not speaker. So I would like to buy a new 2 channel amplifiers / integrated amplifier. Please advice. I have already purchased the Onkyo Integra A 8800 (used) but would like to get something better.

 

[ski2xblack]

Conclusion :
Problem was receiver, not speaker. So I would like to buy a new 2 channel amplifiers / integrated amplifier. Please advice. I have already purchased the Onkyo Integra A 8800 (used) but would like to get something better.

Sangeet, based on what you have provided, the problem with the Pioneer was with the pre-amp section, not the amp section. Don't draw the wrong conclusion (i.e. attribute the differences you heard to the amps).

I took this amplifier at home and connected my JBL ES 90 and man, it sounded toooo good . I couldn’t believe that it was the same old JBL. They had so much of power, punch and clarify that I was amazed. I could hear each and every instrument clearly and the sound was so crisp. They were 10 times better than any of the system that I heard...

Dude, you're there. The Onkyo is making sweet music, no? Live with it for a while, kick back, and enjoy the music.

 

[PENG]

All of you guys were completely wrong. There is no problem with the speaker. The problem was receiver. I will send you my detail project report later tonight and how the problem is resolved.

I simply responded to your question (your post#10) of "Why are these Marantz and other power amplifiers so expensive ???? ......". I've never said anything about your speakers in my response, and I am "completely" wrong?.

 

[Alex2507]

I've never said anything about your speakers in my response, and I am "completely" wrong?.

Apology accepted.

 

[gene]

Unless one of them is malfunctioning, overdriven, or poorly designed in the first place, it shouldn't. Sound quality is primarily a function of (a)the speakers, (b)their interaction with the listening space, and (c)source (recording) quality. An amplifier should not alter the sound quality at all. If you want qualitative differences, look at the speakers and room, use an equalizer, etc.

Some situations demand more power (large rooms, low sensitivity speakers, desire for high spl, combo of any of these) where inadequate power certainly would result in worse sound quality. That's why you need to determine if you're asking too much of your Pioneer in the first place, using that peak spl calculator.



There are good amps of each and every variety, and poor amps of each as well. Check out the A/V University if you want to dig into the details of amp technology. We tend to stick to the 'good' ones when making recommendations here, regardless of circuit class.

That is a gross oversimplification of a very complex system. The interaction between the amplifier and loudspeaker isn't that simple. I have heard first hand on how badly high powered Class D amps could sound with low impedance, very resolving speakers. It's not just a function of power. I wish it was that simple, but its not and as an EE it took me years to realize measurements don't give you the whole picture.

Pioneer Elite receivers with ICE amps have issues driving 4 ohm loads. I noted this in my SC-07 review and proved it with measurements. I spoke to several loudspeaker companies that also informed me their findings matched mine. Pioneer engineers also acknowledged my findings and told me that was one of the reasons they moved away from the ICE module they implemented on the Elite receivers.

 

[JerryLove]

There's a reason we discussed the Ohm load presented by the OP's speakers (8ohm).

Yes. There's more than reading the wattage label (heaven knows I've had to deal with that with my 801's). But a properly built amp still remains either capable of fully powering a given load or incapable of it.

Class D's have seen the bulk of their development in pro-audio where the speakers are usually 16 ohm.
OTOH: I remember several posts from one the Peavy engineers discussing the IPR series and its ability to run at 1Ohm.

I'd be interested to know if anyone can identify, in blind ABX testing, the difference between a McIntosh, Emotiva, Peavy IPR, and Marantz AVR driving, say, my Paradigm S2's or the like.

 

[GranteedEV]

T I have heard first hand on how badly high powered Class D amps could sound with low impedance, very resolving speakers.

...and that is a gross oversimplification of a very broad and varying topology

 

[jinjuku]

That is a gross oversimplification of a very complex system. The interaction between the amplifier and loudspeaker isn't that simple. I have heard first hand on how badly high powered Class D amps could sound with low impedance, very resolving speakers. It's not just a function of power. I wish it was that simple, but its not and as an EE it took me years to realize measurements don't give you the whole picture.

Pioneer Elite receivers with ICE amps have issues driving 4 ohm loads. I noted this in my SC-07 review and proved it with measurements. I spoke to several loudspeaker companies that also informed me their findings matched mine. Pioneer engineers also acknowledged my findings and told me that was one of the reasons they moved away from the ICE module they implemented on the Elite receivers.

How new are these Class D amps you experienced? The last few generations of Class D I have played around with have been near indestructible on even highly reactive and wide phase angle loads.

I think Ski also acknowledged that there are poor performers of any topologies. I even think Nelson Pass has admitted to a stinker or two of his designs

 

[gene]

There's a reason we discussed the Ohm load presented by the OP's speakers (8ohm).

Yes. There's more than reading the wattage label (heaven knows I've had to deal with that with my 801's). But a properly built amp still remains either capable of fully powering a given load or incapable of it.

Class D's have seen the bulk of their development in pro-audio where the speakers are usually 16 ohm.
OTOH: I remember several posts from one the Peavy engineers discussing the IPR series and its ability to run at 1Ohm.

I'd be interested to know if anyone can identify, in blind ABX testing, the difference between a McIntosh, Emotiva, Peavy IPR, and Marantz AVR driving, say, my Paradigm S2's or the like.

It's difficult to ABX amplifiers but with Jim Salk's switch box, its very possible. I am going to try to get one for that very purpose and possibly have a few listeners over if and when this happens. No need to make it a DBT since the user won't know which amp they are listening to.

 

[gene]

How new are these Class D amps you experienced? The last few generations of Class D I have played around with have been near indestructible on even highly reactive and wide phase angle loads.

I think Ski also acknowledged that there are poor performers of any topologies. I even think Nelson Pass has admitted to a stinker or two of his designs

The amps that fell apart from my testing were the Pioneer ICE modules. The Axiom A1400 did poorly when driving the new Status speakers, especially in the bass region which was surprising b/c I like how to drove the bass in my older reference speakers.

I agree however that Class D has the potential to be on equal footing to linear amps. The new Anthem amp looks like it has a LOT of potential and I plan on testing it. I heard it at CEDIA driving the Paradigm 30th anniversary speakers and it was great. One day, I will test those Crown's you revere so much too.

 

[ski2xblack]

Cool! My vote: ABX that Pass with one of those Crown Drivecore.

Gene, gotta say it hurts to be called out by the big boss. I'm not one of the "all amps sound the same" crowd, and agree that it is a complex topic. I did provide a link for the OP to the AV University technical articles for that very reason.

 

[jinjuku]

The amps that fell apart from my testing were the Pioneer ICE modules. The Axiom A1400 did poorly when driving the new Status speakers, especially in the bass region which was surprising b/c I like how to drove the bass in my older reference speakers.

I agree however that Class D has the potential to be on equal footing to linear amps. The new Anthem amp looks like it has a LOT of potential and I plan on testing it. I heard it at CEDIA driving the Paradigm 30th anniversary speakers and it was great. One day, I will test those Crown's you revere so much too.

Guitar Center is probably right down the street from you 30 day no hassle return policy. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say the Crown has a much deeper bench than Axiom. Especially when it comes to SMPS and PWM.

I'll ship you one if you want. The 2500 DriveCore?

 

[ski2xblack]

Sangeet, are you still tuning in?

I think that there is something to learn from this discussion and the possible misunderstanding between Gene and myself, both generally, and in specific practice on your part.

The topic of sonic differences between amps is an old, tired topic, but one where the newbs, who lack certain baseline knowledge, can fall into the trap of believing that amps can cure certain sonic ills. The whole discussion can lead to misunderstandings that often are largely semantic in nature.

Audioholics is a place dedicated to "the Pursuit of truth in audio/video", so let's establish some facts. All available evidence strongly suggests that amplifiers, should they meet just a few basic criteria, are sonically indistinguishable in bias-controlled listening tests. These criteria are: linear response over the audible band, low noise, low output impedance, and operated within it's power limits (not overdriven/clipped).

Note that that is not the same as the statement "all amps sound the same". An amp, pushing a variable A/C signal (the music, which is actually pretty easy as signals go) into a variable load (the loudspeaker, which is pretty demanding as far as loads go) is as Gene said a complex interaction. It is appreciably different than test signals (very demanding as far as signals go) into a resistor (flat impedance, easy load) as is done in bench tests. The takeaway is that measurements don't tell all, they're just a differential slice, a picture taken from an oblique angle no less, of a larger whole. And unfortunately, as Gene pointed out in regards to the Pioneer ICE modules, not all amps are competently designed to handle the difficult loads.

I should also point out that it is rather difficult to try and diagnose the OP's problems remotely. He has been provided helpful advice, and performed a bit of critical thinking and testing at the dealership on his own, with good results. I'd like to think that we're helping the OP head in the right direction. That direction is looking more and more like an appropriate AVR (or AVR/pre-pro, amp combo) with a clean front end and more suitable for powering his JBLs, which he seems to like well enough. And at least he has the Onkyo to listen to while that is sorted out.

 

[tstan7777]

Coming from someone who has little technical knowledge......I replaced an Adcom gfa-5400 with an Aragon 2004 mkII. They were powering Klipsch kg 3.5's. The amps sounded totally different. The Adcom had a little harsher sound but to me had more detail. The Aragon transformed the low end. Instead of a dry, almost hollow bottom end, it had an extremely "fat" sound. Much more powerful. I actually preferred the Adcom overall. I was listening to mostly hard rock and the Adcom really brought out the "crunch" of the electric guitars. That's my only expierence with amplifiers and I'll forever believe an amp can change the sound.

 

[ImcLoud]

Coming from someone who has little technical knowledge......I replaced an Adcom gfa-5400 with an Aragon 2004 mkII. They were powering Klipsch kg 3.5's. The amps sounded totally different. The Adcom had a little harsher sound but to me had more detail. The Aragon transformed the low end. Instead of a dry, almost hollow bottom end, it had an extremely "fat" sound. Much more powerful. I actually preferred the Adcom overall. I was listening to mostly hard rock and the Adcom really brought out the "crunch" of the electric guitars. That's my only expierence with amplifiers and I'll forever believe an amp can change the sound.

Amps can definitely change sound, they make it louder that before .
But in my experience I look for reliability, low cost per watt, class a/b {not sold on D yet}, neutral sound {what goes in comes out}.

Although I am a firm believer in a shortest possible path, so if you want to play music and really hear what is being played, don't clutter it up with a HUGE AVR full of video circuits and switches, keep the audio path as simple as possible.... And I don't like EQ's, I want to hear it how it was recorded, not with less treble or more midrange, just how the mics picked it up and the professionals mixed it.

I honestly like how my carver ma202's {just a tiny bit different than a dayton apa150, I own both} sound with the pure dock going rite to them better than when I had my preamp between the 2. Its a noticeable difference, I tried it back and forth and very noticeable difference, the preamp tended to roll off the highs a little more, I couldn't tell what it did to the lows if it changed them at all but the highs changed as little as in less...

Thats why I have separate music and video systems...

So pure audio path for music, with theater, you need all that crab in there, otherwise you would be plugging and unplugging devices when you wanted to switch from cable to dvd...