Little help on a 20,000 Home Theater System please

[Tejay]

Hi Guys,

I'm a newbie here and looking for some expert advice and opinions. I am in the process of building a new house that will have a dedicated home theater in the basement. The room dimensions are 22' X 18'.

The majority of what we like to watch is action / adventure (Avatar, Black Hawk Down, etc) and things with a heavy musical themes/soundtracks.

Below is what I am considering for our system and I'm having a hard time deciding on speakers. I know there many great systems out there but these are two that I've heard and really liked.

Please give me your thoughts on these and any opinions on anything else that you feel would be better in the 10k range for the speaker system. Also, if anyone has one of these speaker systems, please give me your thoughts about it.

Thanks in advance. Tejay

Total System aprox 19,600

Receiver - Yamaha RX-A3020. (2200)
Blu Ray Player - BD-A1010. (500)
Projector - Digital Projection CINE 230-HC (6900)

Speaker System 5.1 from Either of the Below

Definitive Technologies. (aprox 10,000)
Front Mains - BP7000SC
Center - CS-8080HD
Rears - DI 5.5BPS
Sub - Super Cube Trinity


Klipsch. THX Ultra2 Home Theater System. (aprox 10.000)
Mains - KL-650-THX Bookshelf Speaker
Center - KL-650-THX Bookshelf Speaker
Rears - KL-525-THX Bookshelf Speaker
Subs-(2) -KW-120-THX Subwoofer

 

[ImcLoud]

This sounds like fun, you have an awesome budget,

As far as the projector and screen go, I dont know much about that part, but a lot of guys on here do so you will be in good hands there...
I do know I wouldn't buy a blu ray player, I use PS3, and you forgot your remote... I just got a harmony, expensive but makes it all worth it...


OK, I am hooked on separates, I don't like using AVR amp sections, some people say, "it makes no difference" , but that's because they don't have them , I notice a big difference, between powering with my avr and with my amps...
So start with the amp-
Emotiva is a great company for power, I have owned, {and still have some} BK, ati, carver, ect and Emotiva sounds the same if not better than most for 1/4 the price...

I played with these at their show room, amazing piece of equipment...
XPR-5 | 400W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier

So there is your power now for speakers...

Now from your description you sound like you watch the same stuff we watch... And I am a "listener" I have listened to so many systems I couldn't begin to put a number on how many... But there were a few that impressed me... 1 that sticks out for the ultimate theater setup, IMO... Is the Wharfedale Jade line... This stuff is new, and you get a lot for your money, if you dont mind the size, you will be impressed, they are STRONG, which makes every sound they make seem less than effortless...

With the jade 7 towers, surrounds, and c2 center {all linked below} it will cost under $7000, if you go down to the 5 towers and 1 center you can shave off around $1400, I have heard it both ways, and I would go with the 7 towers, jade surrounds, and 1 center, save around $300...

WHARFEDALE JADE 7 TOWER SPEAKERS (PR) at Music Direct
WHARFEDALE JADE C2 CENTER CHANNEL SPEAKER (EA) at Music Direct
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-53476-wharfedale-jade-sr-surround-speakers-pr.aspx

Then next is subs... HSU vtf15 dual drive- $2000 VTF-15H DualDrive Package

or uls15 dual drive ULS-15 DualDrive Packages
either way you can not go wrong...


So I would get the jades- $6500 {approx, you can probably find cheaper, or call and work a price}
Emotiva XPR5 $2000
HSU vtf15 dual drive $2000
and for a receiver I would just pick something with audysseey and preouts, $600 or so... Personally I would get a 709 from acc 4 less for $450...

So for the audio portion you would be around $11000... Do your self a favor and take a listen to the Jades, they dont get much coverage in the US, but a very nice product, I have the US reps number, if you are interested...

PS I have heard the Def tech towers Pnot the entire set, and the Klipsch set, and IMO they arent in the same league as the jades..

Also the Opus line can be found for good prices, but the jades are even nice, I have heard them all... Opus, is nice for music the opus 2-3s were some of the nicest musical towers Ive heard {with no sub needed}

Oh yeah and welcome, we are going to need pics of this when its all done, we are used to "what 9.2 system can I build for $300?" threads, you have a good budget, I dont think I spent that on my theater, 2.2, hi eff. tube system, PC system combined, and bathroom remodel, jk, lol..

 

[Steve81]

Hi Tejay, and welcome to the madness!

At your price point, there is certainly going to be no shortage of fantastic systems to choose from, and the two systems you've mentioned should certainly provide an entertaining HT experience.

A couple thoughts I will share:

1. 22' x 18' is a pretty large space. THX Ultra 2 specifies a room under 3000 cubic feet; assuming an 8 foot ceiling, you're ending up on the wrong side of that number. This isn't to say that the Klipsch system will suddenly sound like poop in your room, but it's probable that you'll be pushing it harder than intended to reach a given volume level. If you're not really planning to push the envelope, it's not a problem; but if you're not planning to push the envelope, my guess is you probably wouldn't be dropping this kind of cash on your HT.

2. ImcLoud mentions separate amplifiers, and it's certainly not a horrible idea, again going back to your room size. The actual amount of power you need of course depends entirely upon the speakers you choose and how loud you'd like to push the system.

3. There are more speaker manufacturers out there than I could hope to name. Broaden your horizons and listen to as much as you can. Klipsch and Def Tech only scratch the surface. If you're spending this kind of money, you owe it to yourself to make sure you're buying what sounds the best to your ears.

4. Don't forget the other side of your playback system: the room. A few well placed treatments can make a $5000 system sound better than a $50000 system where the room is ignored.

5. Don't forget to have fun

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi Guys,

I'm a newbie here and looking for some expert advice and opinions. I am in the process of building a new house that will have a dedicated home theater in the basement. The room dimensions are 22' X 18'.

The majority of what we like to watch is action / adventure (Avatar, Black Hawk Down, etc) and things with a heavy musical themes/soundtracks.

Below is what I am considering for our system and I'm having a hard time deciding on speakers. I know there many great systems out there but these are two that I've heard and really liked.

Please give me your thoughts on these and any opinions on anything else that you feel would be better in the 10k range for the speaker system. Also, if anyone has one of these speaker systems, please give me your thoughts about it.

Thanks in advance. Tejay

Total System aprox 19,600

Receiver - Yamaha RX-A3020. (2200)
Blu Ray Player - BD-A1010. (500)
Projector - Digital Projection CINE 230-HC (6900)

Speaker System 5.1 from Either of the Below

Definitive Technologies. (aprox 10,000)
Front Mains - BP7000SC
Center - CS-8080HD
Rears - DI 5.5BPS
Sub - Super Cube Trinity


Klipsch. THX Ultra2 Home Theater System. (aprox 10.000)
Mains - KL-650-THX Bookshelf Speaker
Center - KL-650-THX Bookshelf Speaker
Rears - KL-525-THX Bookshelf Speaker
Subs-(2) -KW-120-THX Subwoofer

I would really look at your speaker selection. Neither of your two choices are much bottle. There are much better speaker systems out there.

 

[jostenmeat]

"DIY heavy" post here, or option to hire out some work. Also with option(s) for easy level DIY, i.e. "glue and screw".

If it's me, I put the speaker/sub money into performance only, or as much as I can, and forget the looks. Why is ugly ok? Because I would hide at least 3 speakers and 2 subs behind a false wall, where they are completely invisible. Easy to frame for anyone that is even somewhat familiar with woodworking, the materials are super cheap, you can cover it all with black speaker cloth. The screen will be AT or acoustically transparent. If you're willing to build, you can get DIY fabric from Seymour, and build a pretty big screen of the same stuff that George Lucas uses, for only a few hundred dollars. For the "easy DIY", check out Jamestown frame that is accompanied by same fabric. Or you can spend 4 digits and just buy it direct, prebuilt. Read up on differences between weaves like the Seymour (my preferred) vs micro-perf.

Receiver/processor, I'm with ImcLoud, I'd get someting like that, $600. Add mch amplifier; if the receiver has a respectable amp section, and that the surrounds are close to listeners, even just a 3ch amp for the front three may be plenty. In fact, depending on the receiver, listening habits, and particular speakers chosen (efficiency, sensitivity), even a receiver may be plenty. But might as well get an amp at your budget, and not worry about it.

bluray, save yourself a few hundred dollars and get a Panasonic. They own the majority of BD patents if you're worried.

PJ, if it is max brightness you're looking for, you might consider upping it up to the 260 model. It should have other desirable attributes too. However if it was my money, I'd be looking into the top of the line JVCs coming around the corner. With the JVC, you are likely to have superior contrast, superior blacks, superior fill ratio, and probably have it considerably quieter with more placement flexibility. With the DPI you will at least get superior brightness and sharpness.

Speakers, hardcore DIY, I'd try negotiating a fee with someone like TLS Guy to make me some plans for 3 identical speakers for the front, with a matching design for surrounds. I'd let him clearly know I won't care in the slightest for the looks dept, at least for the fronts. (BTW, I'd paint the front speaks/subs all matte black, to reduce light reflections that go through speaker cloth and screen). "Easy DIY", I'd start looking into all the flat pack kits available from the most popular DIY oriented speaker companies. Buying outright prebuilt, for unlimited dynamics, I'd look at the pro audio type of stuff like JTR, Danley, and start reading about that stuff. Options, options, options.

Subs, I'd be curious about the possibility of an infinite baffle system. Or perhaps instead a couple of Tuba HT subs (the 72" variety), behind the false wall, but NOT directly behind the screen. You could probably build two of these monsters and have the amp for them, for only $1k I'm guessing for the total, and it's possible that you could have the most dynamically capable sub system of any regular poster here (possibly* save one or two that come to mind, maaaaybe; just making a point). Again, butt ugly, friggin' enormous, but yet easily hideable behind a false wall. A nice thing about DIY sub vs commercial sub is that there is no more annoying auto on/off feature. I never thought about this before, but now that I know what it's like, auto on/off, well I despise it. I can always hear it turn on and off. So distracting. Any leftover money from your budget will be for fixing the wall cracks and shattered glass that the subs will induce.

When you're spending 5 digits on video, for the movie experience, I wouldn't want reflected light coming off pretty speakers everywhere. There are a lot of enthusiasts who actually cover the tops of their exposed speakers to reduce the distracting light reflections.

So, not including speakers, but including everything else including the screen and false wall, subs, etc, say $13,000ish? Outside of attending an AH GTG or something, your odds are extremely high that you will never walk into a superior theater in your life, this is IMO, and that includes theaters that charge you $20, IMAX, etc.

 

[shadyJ]

In that price range, for acoustically transparent screens, the speaker that has my attention is the JBL LSR 6332. It's accurate as a studio monitor and high enough efficiency for a home theater. They are about $1600 each. I think they would be overkill for surround speakers though, so I would go with some kind of high efficiency bookshelf speaker for the surrounds. The aforementioned Emotiva would be a good amp for all those, but if you wanted to save a few dollars, check out the Outlaw Model 7500.

For the subs, get at least two. Some subs to look at are the Funk Audio 18.1, Rythmik FV15HP, PowerSoundAudio XV30, Chase SS-18.2P, SVS PC12-Plus, and the aforementioned Hsu VTF15h.

For a receiver or pre-pro, get something that has Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 with the Sub EQ. If the AVR is sufficiently powerful for you, you might just consider skipping the separate amplifier altogether. This will depend on how loud you like it.

 

[FirstReflection]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

This is NOT the sort of system you want to rush. $20,000 is actually, in many ways, a tougher budget to deal with than $2,000. It seems like a whole lot when you first hear it. But MAN it goes quick. You really need to slow down and do this right. 'Cause I don't think you're spending $20,000 for less than the very best that you can get for that money. You owe it to yourself to do this right. And folks are already spitting out speaker suggestions left and right. We don't even know the important basics yet!

We've got 22' x 18'...and nothing else.

Is the screen going on the 22' wall or the 18' wall?

How high is the ceiling?

What is the distance from eyes to screen for the primary "throne" seat?

How many rows of seating will you have?

How many seats in each row?

Is this an enclosed room?

If the room is open to other rooms, what are the dimensions? How big is the opening? Where is the opening?

Where are all the doors and windows? A diagram or photos would be extremely helpful.

Once we know the basics of the room, let's focus on making the room a good environment for audio and video! Throw $20,000 worth of great speakers into a poor acoustic environment, and you've just wasted all your money! Treat the room first, and $5000 worth of speakers can sound utterly amazing.

Let's do this right.

The projection screen. Very important. Knowing the viewing distance will tell us what size screen you should have. Knowing how many rows of seats and where they will be will tell us if we should shoot for the high or low side of screen size, and might inform us about how much brightness you need.

Do you want to be able to use 3D? If so, that's a MAJOR concern, because 3D glasses cut your projector's brightness by over 70%!

Might you go with an acoustically transparent screen? That might demand on-wall speakers, or speakers that can at least be placed very close to the wall behind them.

Might you go for a screen masking system? That could allow you to have 16:9 aspect ratio movies be the same height as 2.35:1 aspect ratio movies. You can have this constant height setup with either the "poor man's" version of an automated zoom, lens shift and focus, or you might want to go with an anamorphic lens. Those aren't cheap!

There are also dual screen possibilities - although those won't be acoustically transparent.

We've got A LOT to sort out before we start talking about speaker choices. Get the room in order first. That is BY FAR the most important component in your sytsem! And we might end up spending a good $2500 or more on acoustic treatments before we even look at any other gear.

Get the projection screen sorted first. There are a lot of options. And I highly doubt that with a $20,000 budget and a dedicated room that you want your viewing experience to be less than amazing.

You're almost certainly going to wind up looking at speakers that cost less than what you expected. The money goes quick! But it should go to where it makes the most difference and gives the most benefit! So let's not put the cart before the horse here. Work big to small. We need a lot more info and a lot more planning before we go spending thousands on speakers!

 

[ImcLoud]

FR,

always has to ruin the fun with useful information and well thought out responses

So never mind the shopping spree, its time for home work, answer all his questions, and now NO VIDEO GAMES BEFORE BED!!!

But seriously he's rite, with out room treatments, you may as well get spaghetti-O cans with strings going to a tin foil rubber band ball...

Plus I think you should be auditioning any speakers you consider buying, this should be a long thread, so lets start with the room specs so FR can get your layout rite...

And then shopping spree time

But even without seeing the layout, I would get dual 15" hsu subs and the 2000 watt emotiva 5 channel amp, just because you can

 

[Steve81]

But even without seeing the layout, I would get dual 15" hsu subs and the 2000 watt emotiva 5 channel amp, just because you can

Not to mention a few dedicated circuits to power it all

I'd also toss out SVS and Rythmik as solid contenders in the sub space. The Rythmik FV15HP is a value and output monster for example.

 

[ImcLoud]

Not to mention a few dedicated circuits to power it all

I'd also toss out SVS and Rythmik as solid contenders in the sub space. The Rythmik FV15HP is a value and output monster for example.

Very true, there are other sub manu's. out there but, HSU has 2 15's for $1700 thats pretty hard to beat, any other company is going to be $2800+

 

[Steve81]

Very true, there are other sub manu's. out there but, HSU has 2 15's for $1700 thats pretty hard to beat, any other company is going to be $2800+

Well, a pair of the FV15HPs with the 550 watt amp ($100 discount per unit) will run $2375 shipped in the black oak vinyl finish. For a subwoofer that will hold its own with a $2000 SVS PB13U one on one, that's not half bad. The VTF-15 is a good sub and it's definitely a compelling value option, but by the numbers that are available, the Rythmik is going to provide significantly more clean output, and it doesn't have any notable measurable flaws in Josh Ricci's testing.

Edit: Per AH's handy dandy spreadsheet, it's about a 5dB difference on avg from 20Hz to 63Hz between the Hsu and the Rythmik. For comparison, 6dB would equate to the Rythmik being equivalent to a pair of stacked Hsu's. What makes that worse is that the Hsu's numbers are adjusted up by 3dB from where Paul actually measured them although his figures for the FV15HP matched Ricci's results fairly well, and in his retest of the VTF15, the results didn't change markedly.

 

[ImcLoud]

Well, a pair of the FV15HPs with the 550 watt amp ($100 discount per unit) will run $2375 shipped in the black oak vinyl finish. For a subwoofer that will hold its own with a $2000 SVS PB13U one on one, that's not half bad. The VTF-15 is a good sub and it's definitely a compelling value option, but by the numbers that are available, the Rythmik is going to provide significantly more clean output, and it doesn't have any notable measurable flaws in Josh Ricci's testing.

Edit: Per AH's handy dandy spreadsheet, it's about a 5dB difference on avg from 20Hz to 63Hz between the Hsu and the Rythmik. For comparison, 6dB would equate to the Rythmik being equivalent to a pair of stacked Hsu's. What makes that worse is that the Hsu's numbers are adjusted up by 3dB from where Paul actually measured them although his figures for the FV15HP matched Ricci's results fairly well, and in his retest of the VTF15, the results didn't change markedly.

Thats tested with the 500 watt amp or 600? I know the Rythmiks are impressive amps, but I always thought the in room difference wouldnt warrant the $500+ price difference.. I know the numbers are important, but when you get 2-15" 350 watt subs home chances are you arent going to care about the extra 5db? I have 1 vtf12 and cant turn it 1/2 way up, and my room is a good size...

There are definitely choices out there, and this is one of the great things about this forum, you are going to get all sides of the coin {even the edge}.. Thanks Steve..

 

[Steve81]

Thats tested with the 500 watt amp or 600?

Test is with the 600W amp; dropping down to the 550 watt amplifier with the same box and driver per Rythmik drops the SPL by less than 0.5dB (and makes sense when you run it through an SPL calculator).

but I always thought the in room difference wouldnt warrant the $500+ price difference..I know the numbers are important, but when you get 2-15" 350 watt subs home chances are you arent going to care about the extra 5db?

I have 1 vtf12 and cant turn it 1/2 way up, and my room is a good size...

Entirely depends on what the end user wants, although room size plays a role in how much subwoofer you need to reach a given level. Me, I had a SVS PC12-NSD in a sealed 2500 cubic foot room. Certainly nobody would mistake it for a HTIB system in a 6000 cubic foot space...but I like bass So here I am with the PB13 Ultra. For some, a sub as powerful as an Ultra or FV15HP isn't enough, and for them there are JTR Captivators, Orbit Shifters, Danley DTS-10s, Seaton Submersives, etc.

There are definitely choices out there, and this is one of the great things about this forum, you are going to get all sides of the coin {even the edge}.. Thanks Steve..

Agree; it might be data overload at first if you're not expecting all the choices, but there's a lot of good intelligent guys on here; while I don't agree with everyone here all of the time by any stretch, even the arguments are informative.

 

[jdskycaster]

My dedicated HT is 18x23. Currently running Chase SHO-10's ($400ea.) and dual VS18.1's ($2K w/amp). Power the SHO's with some decent amplification, they are efficient so massive power is not a requirement, Emo XPA series would be more than sufficient. Pick up an AVR with XT32 as a pre-pro. Budget $5K for a PJ and AT screen, add a remote and you are good to go all-in for $15K.

Spend the remaining $5K on room treatments and you have a system for $20K that took me more than 20 years and over six figures in cost and experimentation to have finally arrived at that blow your socks off moment.

Most importantly, have fun with the journey.

 

[Tejay]

Wow...I am blown away with all the incredible information from everyone. This is exactly what I needed.

I will post answers to all the questions this evening with a few drawings so everyone can better understand what I'm working with.

Please give me break on the CAD drawings when I post them, as I'm not a CAD guru and never really learned 3D but I hope they will at least help convey the floor plan a little better.

Thanks again guys for all the great help, ideas and opinions. It amazes me that I have approached 3 different home theater companies in my hometown of Atlanta GA. One never responded to my emails and calls and the other 2 proposed simple solutions with what I considered sub-par electronics and speakers. Neither of the two that I spoke with offered any design elements, just a simple quote of "here's what you get for you budget" in equipment and installation. Not to mention...."I'm sorry but I don't carry that brand".

Frustrating to say the least. Thanks again to everyone for all the help and I'll have the answers back on this thread this evening.

You Guys ROCK!

Tejay

 

[ImcLoud]

Wow...I am blown away with all the incredible information from everyone. This is exactly what I needed.

I will post answers to all the questions this evening with a few drawings so everyone can better understand what I'm working with.

Please give me break on the CAD drawings when I post them, as I'm not a CAD guru and never really learned 3D but I hope they will at least help convey the floor plan a little better.

Thanks again guys for all the great help, ideas and opinions. It amazes me that I have approached 3 different home theater companies in my hometown of Atlanta GA. One never responded to my emails and calls and the other 2 proposed simple solutions with what I considered sub-par electronics and speakers. Neither of the two that I spoke with offered any design elements, just a simple quote of "here's what you get for you budget" in equipment and installation. Not to mention...."I'm sorry but I don't carry that brand".

Frustrating to say the least. Thanks again to everyone for all the help and I'll have the answers back on this thread this evening.

You Guys ROCK!

Tejay

I found the independent contractors are hit and miss you are much better off doing it yourself... cost wise and you will know your system inside and out..

 

[Tejay]

Thanks guys

 

[Tejay]

There are a few drawings coming soon.

Tejay

 

[Tejay]

Sorry...had to get my post count up to 5 to be able to post the images.

Please forgive me.

Tejay

 

[Tejay]

Here are few quick drawings that I hope will give you a better idea of what I'm trying to accomplish. Please forgive the CAD-ing as I'm a novice.

More info coming this evening.

Thanks for all the help Guys!

Tejay