Need advice (like all other nooblets)

[Blindf8th]

Heya all,
Researching brought me here (yikes). Definitely found a few articles that have helped (great info wow!), so I'm now hoping for a little more specific advice to get me across the finish line. Additionally, I have zero knowledge or experience in speaker understanding outside of what I have recently read.

My goal:
To get the best movie\TV experience I can utilizing in ceiling options (relatively zero music used).

Moving into our new home in a month and have to sell my floor standing Polk TSi400's since I have no place to set them. Also utilize the Polk CS10 and this setup has served me well in an apartment.

Understanding the limitations of in ceiling speakers (cringe) I have little options as my wife cannot stomach wall mounted speakers in our main living room which is what I started to look at initially. I too agree they would not be the best looking things hanging off our front and back walls, so here is the question and layout.

Layout is off center a little and I have no idea the best route to go.






Please tell me what you would suggest different. I was planning on keeping my Polk CS10 and placing it on a TV cabinet in the media slot just right of the fireplace. I was then going to mount the TV at the optimal height. My sub is a Polk (cant recall model) and was going to place it in the media slot as well. My AV\tuner is an Onkyo TX-SR604(B). The ceiling has the 4 pre-wired areas and my budget per speaker is about $300.

Is my goal of good movie experience something that can be achieved with what I'm looking to do? I do know that having the ability to angle the tweeters is a must, so what would you buy for the $300 price range? Looked at some B7W's (thoughts)?

Thanks again for any thoughts on this as I'm definitely learning as I go.

Blind

 

[TLS Guy]

I will answer your question honestly. No, you can not achieve your goals with an all in ceiling solution.

It looks a very nice room.

Where are you going to put the TV? It will be far too high over that fireplace.

If you have to use that room, and I would keep your options open as to the space you choose, I would get two very good small bookshelf speakers on elegant stands and a well concealed good sealed sub. I really don't see a good multichannel surround option for that room and keeping your wife happy.

I think an elegant 2.1 solution will give you the best movie solution for that room.

Your wife needs to understand that speakers do not have to be invisible. Choosing the right solution and using form and function to achieve your goals is what is required.

I have come to understand that for this new AV era, if you can possibly achieve it, a dedicated media room is the way to go. I understand that in many situations that is not possible.

However you are moving into a new home and this is the time to ask the questions as to how you use your spaces. Most people don't give real thought to this.

My speakers are massive, but they fit in and add aesthetic as well as stunning acoustic results to this space. Click on the links to my picture to see the photos. We have some really nice spaces in this home, but my studio is my wife's favorite!

 

[zieglj01]

Look at some Artison speakers, that attach to your TV
Tell your wife, that they are part of the TV.
Artison Sketch LCR DualMono® High-performance speakers for ultra-thin flat-panel TVs at Crutchfield.com

 

[ImcLoud]

I was like "B7W" what is that? Then I got it...
OK...

Ceiling speakers aren't optimal, and you have high ceilings so I would stare clear... Take it from me, I have a dozen ceiling speakers and they are good for ambiance, but thats about it...
Artisians are a good option if they will work for you, room wise, it looks like the tv is in a small area in your pic...

I'm confused about your budget, is it $300 per speaker for all 5 so that is $1500... or do you want to keep your center and buy 4 speakers? so lets address that first, If you keep that center, you need to get a matching front and right speaker set, from Polk, Im not positive what would match but Im thinking it wont be what you want aesthetically...

How about this... Not sure if this is in or out of your budget...
You can piece together a sound bar system... this is what I would do if it were my money...
these were over $1000 not that long ago... BOSTON ACOUSTICS P400 On-Wall 3-Channel Speaker Black | Accessories4less

these wont be too noticible on the white ceiling BOSTON ACOUSTICS MCS130 Horizon Series 2-Way Surround Speaker Each | Accessories4less

And then this sub is just begging to be bought for the money its really nice, on clearence- Newegg.com - Klipsch Reference RW-12d 12" Powered Subwoofer Each w/ New box

That would only be $850 or so, and you get a 5.1 {sound bar has 3 inputs} with a good sub, really that systems MSRP is over $2600!!!

Also not sure if you have an avr already or what, but if it has too look small I like these marantz slimlines, If I was getting a sound bar, I would pick one of them, they are at a4l cheap heres one- http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARNR1402/MARANTZ-NR1402-Slimline-5.1ch-AV-Receiver-w/HDMI-3D-ready/1.html

there are a lot of sound bars out there...

KEF KHT8005 Soundbar Speaker System | Accessories4less

Good price on that unit, and with the right ceiling mounts them little speakers will seam invisible kind of...

I have heard the 8003 sound bar and it is nice...

That is by far not the best system for the money, since for that kind of money you can get a set of decent speakers with a decent sub, but you obviously realize you are going to have to make compromises for the appearances you want... Im not sure which sub you have, but most likely it isnt more than a 200w 10" Polk, the kef would probably be on par with that, and you could then sell your entire Polk system as a whole...

One last thing, I would mount the surrounds from them ceiling boxes with a light transition kit and long rod, match the light ceiling hub and rod to the one on your fan and then hang the speakers that way... But the wife probably wouldn't appreciate the ingenuity...

 

[Blindf8th]

I will answer your question honestly. No, you can not achieve your goals with an all in ceiling solution.

It looks a very nice room.

Where are you going to put the TV? It will be far too high over that fireplace.

If you have to use that room, and I would keep your options open as to the space you choose, I would get two very good small bookshelf speakers on elegant stands and a well concealed good sealed sub. I really don't see a good multichannel surround option for that room and keeping your wife happy.

I think an elegant 2.1 solution will give you the best movie solution for that room.

Your wife needs to understand that speakers do not have to be invisible. Choosing the right solution and using form and function to achieve your goals is what is required.

I have come to understand that for this new AV era, if you can possibly achieve it, a dedicated media room is the way to go. I understand that in many situations that is not possible.

However you are moving into a new home and this is the time to ask the questions as to how you use your spaces. Most people don't give real thought to this.

My speakers are massive, but they fit in and add aesthetic as well as stunning acoustic results to this space. Click on the links to my picture to see the photos. We have some really nice spaces in this home, but my studio is my wife's favorite!

Thanks for the honesty. The TV slot is just off to the right of the fireplace. The picture is a little deceptive as it will fit a 60" TV. Definitely not even considering above the fireplace.

Lets say that I was able to convince my wife of something else. If this was your space, how would you go about it? What would you get for around $1200-$1400? Its very possible I can sway her, but honestly thought the directional in-ceiling speakers might work out ok for both of us.

Lastly, whats the primary reason the in-ceiling option is not a good one? Is it the quality of the speakers in my price range, distance from sitting area, not enough mids? What is the main hurdle when trying to get a decent movie\TV sound?

Thanks a mill for the advice. Just want to save myself some money if its not worth the effort.

Blind

 

[Blindf8th]

Look at some Artison speakers, that attach to your TV
Tell your wife, that they are part of the TV.
Artison Sketch LCR DualMono® High-performance speakers for ultra-thin flat-panel TVs at Crutchfield.com

Unfortunately 56" is my max width, so these are not an option for us. Thanks though

Blind

 

[Blindf8th]

I was like "B7W" what is that? Then I got it...
OK...

Ceiling speakers aren't optimal, and you have high ceilings so I would stare clear... Take it from me, I have a dozen ceiling speakers and they are good for ambiance, but thats about it...
Artisians are a good option if they will work for you, room wise, it looks like the tv is in a small area in your pic...

I'm confused about your budget, is it $300 per speaker for all 5 so that is $1500... or do you want to keep your center and buy 4 speakers? so lets address that first, If you keep that center, you need to get a matching front and right speaker set, from Polk, Im not positive what would match but Im thinking it wont be what you want aesthetically...

How about this... Not sure if this is in or out of your budget...
You can piece together a sound bar system... this is what I would do if it were my money...
these were over $1000 not that long ago... BOSTON ACOUSTICS P400 On-Wall 3-Channel Speaker Black | Accessories4less

these wont be too noticible on the white ceiling BOSTON ACOUSTICS MCS130 Horizon Series 2-Way Surround Speaker Each | Accessories4less

And then this sub is just begging to be bought for the money its really nice, on clearence- Newegg.com - Klipsch Reference RW-12d 12" Powered Subwoofer Each w/ New box

That would only be $850 or so, and you get a 5.1 {sound bar has 3 inputs} with a good sub, really that systems MSRP is over $2600!!!

Also not sure if you have an avr already or what, but if it has too look small I like these marantz slimlines, If I was getting a sound bar, I would pick one of them, they are at a4l cheap heres one- MARANTZ NR1402 Slimline 5.1ch AV Receiver w/HDMI & 3D-ready | Accessories4less

there are a lot of sound bars out there...

KEF KHT8005 Soundbar Speaker System | Accessories4less

Good price on that unit, and with the right ceiling mounts them little speakers will seam invisible kind of...

I have heard the 8003 sound bar and it is nice...

That is by far not the best system for the money, since for that kind of money you can get a set of decent speakers with a decent sub, but you obviously realize you are going to have to make compromises for the appearances you want... Im not sure which sub you have, but most likely it isnt more than a 200w 10" Polk, the kef would probably be on par with that, and you could then sell your entire Polk system as a whole...

One last thing, I would mount the surrounds from them ceiling boxes with a light transition kit and long rod, match the light ceiling hub and rod to the one on your fan and then hang the speakers that way... But the wife probably wouldn't appreciate the ingenuity...

That TV area will allow for a max TV size of 60" (looks smaller in the pic for sure). My thought was to keep my center and sub (for a few months anyway) as they are both decent for a lower end system from what I've gathered. So my $1200-$1400 budget is technically for my mains and rears.

Definitely going to read up on the sound bars. I've seen a couple but honestly prefer a true 5.1 if I can swing it. I'll ask you the same thing I ran past TLS Guy. Let's say I could sway my wife to whatever I would like (humor me lol) what would you do with the space I have to work with for the 1400 range?

Thanks again for your input. All you guys really as most people I speak with seem to know less than me which is pretty sad. lol @ the wife reference at the end...

Blind

 

[Adam]

Hi, and welcome to the forum! Sorry if I missed this being mentioned, but have you considered in-wall speakers? You can get grills that can be painted to match the walls, so they wouldn't be obtrusive. You just need the wall depth to accommodate them.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the honesty. The TV slot is just off to the right of the fireplace. The picture is a little deceptive as it will fit a 60" TV. Definitely not even considering above the fireplace.

Lets say that I was able to convince my wife of something else. If this was your space, how would you go about it? What would you get for around $1200-$1400? Its very possible I can sway her, but honestly thought the directional in-ceiling speakers might work out ok for both of us.

Lastly, whats the primary reason the in-ceiling option is not a good one? Is it the quality of the speakers in my price range, distance from sitting area, not enough mids? What is the main hurdle when trying to get a decent movie\TV sound?

Thanks a mill for the advice. Just want to save myself some money if its not worth the effort.

Blind

Apart from the speakers being poor quality, the position is terrible. You will be watching the screen and the sound will be coming from the Heavens. This will be very uncomfortable and worse than the TV speakers. With those high ceilings clarity especially for voices will be very poor.

In that large space the quality and intelligibility of the sound from a TV will be open to question, unless you are very close. If you really intend to use that space, your wife might have to bite the bullet and do the job properly in any event.

In walls are an option, but with the TV off set from the fireplace this is also problematic.

More pictures of that space would be really helpful to guide you.

 

[FirstReflection]

Your best options are going to either in-wall speakers with grills that you can paint to match the wall color, or a nice, slim on-wall speaker - possibly one that incorporates all three front speakers into a single, long, slim case.

For example, the Revel LCR8 would look very unobtrusive. If you mount the TV to the wall, you can mount the LCR8 directly above or below the TV and barely even notice that it's there. Or if you have your TV on a TV stand, you can sit the LCR8 right below the TV and just tilt it upwards with the included base.

That's probably the route I'd go in your situation. In-walls might be troublesome in that TV alcove shown in the picture. But the Revel LCR8 would work just fine

In-ceiling speakers are fine for the surrounds. But I completely agree with everyone else here - avoid them at all costs for your Front 3 speakers. I just really can't imagine anyone having a problem with the looks of the Revel LCR8 solution.

The LCR8 is part of the Revel Concerta series. Revel also has in-ceiling speakers, so you can get a nice sonic match for the surrounds, all from Revel

You do need to cross the LCR8 over quite high though. Revel recommends 110Hz, and in my own audition of the matching M10, C10 and M8 on-wall speakers, I found that figure to be bang on.

So you'll need a nice subwoofer that can play nice and flat and clear up that high. I'm not sure what your requirements are in terms of subwoofer size and looks. I'm guessing your wife doesn't want to notice the subwoofer in the room either

 

[zieglj01]

Another nice option, is the Atlantic Technology FS-4000
front stage speaker bar. Atlantic makes good stuff.
Atlantic Technology FS-4000

Monitor Audio Radius, front stage speaker bar
http://www.soundadvice.com/Monitor-Audio-Radius-One-SoundBar-Black-Lacquer-White-or-Silver-Finish-P1310.aspx

Monitor Audio Radius on-wall speakers, are also nice
http://www.soundadvice.com/Monitor-Audio-R225HD-Flat-Panel-TV-Speaker-Black-Lacquer-White-or-Silver-Finish-Priced-Each-P1304.aspx

If you have to do in-ceiling for the surround channels >>
Then Snell would be a nice one, at a solid close-out price.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/SNELLOHT7/SNELL-OH-T7-Full-range-6.5-inch-coax-Direct-Power-waveguide-Each/1.html

 

[Blindf8th]

Apart from the speakers being poor quality, the position is terrible. You will be watching the screen and the sound will be coming from the Heavens. This will be very uncomfortable and worse than the TV speakers. With those high ceilings clarity especially for voices will be very poor.

In that large space the quality and intelligibility of the sound from a TV will be open to question, unless you are very close. If you really intend to use that space, your wife might have to bite the bullet and do the job properly in any event.

In walls are an option, but with the TV off set from the fireplace this is also problematic.

More pictures of that space would be really helpful to guide you.

Understood and thanks for the clarification. Boy I really am hosed here it seems. The only other one I can provide would be this one. Not sure if it helps much, but here ya go.

Blind

 

[Blindf8th]

Hi, and welcome to the forum! Sorry if I missed this being mentioned, but have you considered in-wall speakers? You can get grills that can be painted to match the walls, so they wouldn't be obtrusive. You just need the wall depth to accommodate them.

Thanks Adam,
Depth will be key. I'm guessing that would depend on the speaker as well? I need to check the walls then as I believe that it backs to our bedroom (unsure on depth of wall). I need to find out thanks...

Blind

 

[Blindf8th]

Your best options are going to either in-wall speakers with grills that you can paint to match the wall color, or a nice, slim on-wall speaker - possibly one that incorporates all three front speakers into a single, long, slim case.

For example, the Revel LCR8 would look very unobtrusive. If you mount the TV to the wall, you can mount the LCR8 directly above or below the TV and barely even notice that it's there. Or if you have your TV on a TV stand, you can sit the LCR8 right below the TV and just tilt it upwards with the included base.

That's probably the route I'd go in your situation. In-walls might be troublesome in that TV alcove shown in the picture. But the Revel LCR8 would work just fine

In-ceiling speakers are fine for the surrounds. But I completely agree with everyone else here - avoid them at all costs for your Front 3 speakers. I just really can't imagine anyone having a problem with the looks of the Revel LCR8 solution.

The LCR8 is part of the Revel Concerta series. Revel also has in-ceiling speakers, so you can get a nice sonic match for the surrounds, all from Revel

You do need to cross the LCR8 over quite high though. Revel recommends 110Hz, and in my own audition of the matching M10, C10 and M8 on-wall speakers, I found that figure to be bang on.

So you'll need a nice subwoofer that can play nice and flat and clear up that high. I'm not sure what your requirements are in terms of subwoofer size and looks. I'm guessing your wife doesn't want to notice the subwoofer in the room either

Based on the pictures I have here. where would you put the LCR8? It definitely looks clean, but what were you thinking... above the fireplace or on the TV stand in that space? I'll have a wall mount for the TV at optimal viewing height. The sub is a Polk which will definitely go in that space unless I'm told to place elsewhere here lol). No way my wife is winning that battle. The sub stays in that space.

Blindf8th

 

[ImcLoud]

That TV area will allow for a max TV size of 60" (looks smaller in the pic for sure). My thought was to keep my center and sub (for a few months anyway) as they are both decent for a lower end system from what I've gathered. So my $1200-$1400 budget is technically for my mains and rears.

Definitely going to read up on the sound bars. I've seen a couple but honestly prefer a true 5.1 if I can swing it. I'll ask you the same thing I ran past TLS Guy. Let's say I could sway my wife to whatever I would like (humor me lol) what would you do with the space I have to work with for the 1400 range?

Thanks again for your input. All you guys really as most people I speak with seem to know less than me which is pretty sad. lol @ the wife reference at the end...

Blind

Unless you are buying polk left and right speakers your center isnt going to work, your front 3 have to be matching timber or you will get a terrible sound, this is more than important, I tried it before and you would rather not have any l r, vs unmatched l r c....

Next a soundbar is true L C R, so you would have 5.1, there are 3 inputs on the back just like hooking up 3 speakers, they are actually pretty impressive...
The Revel FR, mentioned look interesting, I have been wondering about them for some time, but never heard them.... if you decide on a sound bar maybe start another thread asking which people have experience with...


Also check out Pendant style speakers that can be directed.. I know a friend of mine had some JBLs for his surrounds, and they did the job... They just look like lights hanging from the ceiling....

Personally though I would get a pair of ceiling mounts with a decent set of surround speakers and a decent sound bar, from the looks of the room, your going to have to hang the speakers on the walls and having at least one on a stand for the left surround...

 

[ImcLoud]

Now to answer your question about what to buy for $1400, Im still not clear on your receiver situation and what sub you have but for a $1400 5.1 in your room...
Im thinking I would go an audition Paradigm {millenias look interesting}, JBL, and definitive tech on wall speakers and then I would try out a few sound bars, the Boston, KEF, Revel, B&W, ect... And figure out my front 3, then for surrounds the important thing to figure out is, how you are going to mount them, either wall and stand or hanging... Then the surrounds are just effect speakers so there are tons of options out there, dipole, bipole, bookshelf, ect..

Personally I would go soundbar {a good one} and hang to bookshelfs..

 

[markw]

If, in fact, the TV is in that recess next to the fireplace, about the only thing that makes sense for TV sound is a decent soundbar, pehraps with a subwoofer nearby. The Martin Logan Vison is new and supposedly excellent, albiet a bit pricey, but the upside is you won't need a receiver.

That might not be ideal foir music but if that's critical, for that I would recommend a stand-alone system with speakers placed on/near another wall for more optimal placement.

It's hard to argue with the laws of physics and room placement

 

[ImcLoud]

If, in fact, the TV is in that recess next to the fireplace, about the only thing that makes sense for TV sound is a decent soundbar, peraps with a subwoofer nearby.

That might not be ideal foir music but if that's critical, for that I would recommend a stand-alone system with speakers placed on/near another wall for more optimal placement.

It's hard to argue with the laws of physics and room placement

I agree, you will Definitely need a separate system for music!!!

 

[Blindf8th]

Looks like I might have found a solution that prior to today I would have never considered. If I'm wrong with with how this might work, please shoot me down...

What about the folllowing:
Mount the TV above the fireplace
By 3 Martin Logan's motion SLM series for LCR
By 2 Martin Logan's motion FX for rear mount on wall
Utilize my current sub for now

The only thing I've questioned is the height at which the TV and LCRs will be. The guy at Star Power assured me that this would be a killer setup and definitely one I could enjoy TV\movies for sure. This pushes my budget to around 3200, but if I can achieve what I'm hoping for (great movie experience) then Ill be happy long term. The wife also liked the slim design and the fact no large holes would have to be cut out.

Is he wrong in anyone's opinion?

Thanks again for all the assistance with this. I would have made a mistake for sure and if the above is not a good option either, ill just go with a soundbar and be done lol

Blind

 

[ImcLoud]

I think that is a lot of money... I wouldnt spend that on a speaker like that, if they were full towers that did everything than yes, but for ultra thin wall speakers I cant see it...

How about this... for around $1400 they are a couple inches thicker but who is going to notice that...
this center
Newegg.com - Definitive Technology Mythos Three Table Top and On-Wall Center Channel Speaker Each
these for left and right fronts... Newegg.com - Definitive Technology Mythos Three Table Top and On-Wall Center Channel Speaker Each
these surrounds
Newegg.com - Definitive Technology Mythos Gem Compact Main or Surround Speaker (Black) Pair

or them surrounds and 3 of these instead of the above left right center combo.. adds a couple hundred to the price but they are on sale rite now for $400 off msrp, Newegg.com - Definitive Technology Mythos Eight On-Wall Main and Center Channel L/C/R Loudspeakerr (Black) Each

Then grab a decent sub, HSU VTF2 you will still save $1500 over the martins and them def techs come with all the brackets for wall mounting

PS as for mounting your speakers left and right inline with the tv, and the center either above or below, I would lift the tv up a few inches and put it below, you can simply build your self a wood box, paint it black and put it under your tv, then bolt the center to it, or just leave the center in front of it... Another option would be to paint a board and put it accross above the tv and bolt it to that... You could always have a carpenter come in and put a shelf above the tv, paint it to match the room and mount the speaker on that..

I honestly think this will sound just slightly better than a good sound bar for a lot of work... You right speaker has to go in that little space between the door and tv nook, so they are going to be really close together anyway, the soundbars shortcomings, are small drivers, small cabinets, that are close together, this is just slightly addressed with the slim speakers and your setup....

I definitely would not spend over $3000 on them martins, I can promise you that...