Home Theater Room acoustics from heck

[bikemig]

So my "new" home theater room has seriously bad acoustics. The house was built in 1936 but the family room is a fairly new addition. The listening area in the family room is 9 ft wide by 13 ft deep. The problem is the inside wall is brick (it is an old brick house and the inside wall used to be the outside wall of the house) and the outside wall has nice deep glass windows overlooking the yard. The room looks great but the acoustics are awful. I'm attaching some pics.

Any ideas? I am currently running floorstanding speakers (PSB image T-6) and they do not work well in the space. I am thinking of replacing them with some smaller bookshelf speakers and a sub for a 2.1 set up. I was thinking of picking up the NHT absolute zeros and B-10D sub. The speakers need to go fairly close to the wall so I was thinking that sealed speakers might help out. The reason I was thinking of replacing the floorstanders with smaller bookshelf speakers is that I wanted to mimic something like a nearfield set up so that the system at least sounds good while you are sitting on the couch (if that makes any sense).

 

[bikemig]

I probably should have pointed this out in my first post but I can't do much in terms of changing the acoustical properties of the HT or family room. I don't want to lose the views of the yard from the windows and, in any case, the other half of my relationship isn't going to let me do much tinkering with the decor.

So the only potential solution will be with the speakers. They PSB Image T-6 are great speakers and worked very well in my previous house but in this room of our new house they sound bad. Now I suspect most (if not all speakers) will sound badly in this room but I was thinking that perhaps speakers with a more focused dispersal of sound might be an improvement. I'm obviously not an expert on how speakers interact with a room or room acoustics for that matter but I know what sound bad and these speakers in this room just don't sound right.

 

[Adam]

First off, that's a nice looking room! I know it's got its issues with sound, but it looks to be a nice place to relax.

I'm a huge fan of auto calibration on receivers to help out with some of these issues. MCAAC has made a world of difference in my living room. I'm assuming that have, but I'll ask...have you run the calibration on your NAD?

 

[bikemig]

Thanks for the kind words about the family HT room. We love the "new" house which is a brick neo-tudor house (that's the style in our neighborhood) built in 1936. My daughter snagged the best HT room when she took over the finished basement . . . . but the family room is very cool esp. for an old house.

I'm only running a 2.0 set up right now with the floorstanders. I used to have (in our previous house) a 2.1 set up with the floor standers running full range for music (and no sub) and the crossover set at 60 Hz for movies. The new HT room is so narrow at 9 feet that I gave up on the sub and just decided to run the floorstanders full range for everything.

There is no auto calibration with a 2 speaker set up so I just set it up using my various test CDs by ear.

The move to the new house was a really good lesson on the importance of room acoustics. The floorstanders I use for HT sounded awesome in our previous home and crummy in our new (old) house. The bookshelf speakers I use for music playback sounded pretty bad in our previous house because the room was too simply too small and sound great in our new (old) house.

 

[jostenmeat]

I'm a huge fan of auto calibration on receivers to help out with some of these issues. MCAAC has made a world of difference in my living room. I'm assuming that have, but I'll ask...have you run the calibration on your NAD?

Unlike many NAD products, this one doesn't appear to use Audyssey, well not any version of MultEQ anyway.

That said, it's still very hard for me to believe you can't auto calibrate for two speakers only. Though the results will probably be minimal, it's a single position calibration.

The move to the new house was a really good lesson on the importance of room acoustics. The floorstanders I use for HT sounded awesome in our previous home and crummy in our new (old) house. The bookshelf speakers I use for music playback sounded pretty bad in our previous house because the room was too simply too small and sound great in our new (old) house.

The next residence, if ever there is one, and the daughter is still there, beat her to the punch by singing, shouting, clapping, yelling, having wild sex, in every room before they get dedicated to whatever purpose. You'd be surprised at what you can get from a single shout, even if having the whole setup might be more indicative of the situation, there is IMO a lot to get from simple testing like that.

All that aside, there are only a couple of small things that cross my mind. The first is only for a really cuckoo audioholic, but when no one is around, start putting the speakers and yourself, in all sorts of positions, I'm talking even the most ugly, unacceptable, useless positions. You might be surprised with a certain positioning, and at least you'll know where to gravitate towards, if willing to move stuff around for critical listening. I've in the past recommended sliders on couch and stuff for this kind of thing.

The other thought is that, yeah, it's sure possible that every speaker you buy will be displeasing to you, so the only way I see is being somewhat of an abusive customer, by purchasing bunches of speakers that allow for 100% return within however many days, and spending the time to listen to them in room.

Outside of the above, given your stated circumstances, I can't think of anything else atm.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My 2c:
Start here:
Free Online Room Acoustics Analysis
Chat with them or Call
Even few panels placed in right places will make HUGE difference. Get Measuring tools and start using them....

 

[jostenmeat]

My 2c:
Start here:
Free Online Room Acoustics Analysis
Chat with them or Call
Even few panels placed in right places will make HUGE difference. Get Measuring tools and start using them....

He seemed to infer that panels are probably impossible, at least that's what I gathered.

Also, with due respect, I think there is a lot more to "acoustics" than dimensions and surface materials, because well at least in my experiences, it's often what's behind the surface that can also be maddening. Nutshell: the short description service seems a bit "too easy" to me, and if anything, is probably more marketing, in hopes of selling, which of course is to be expected, but I wanted to say it.

If the OP is convinced panels are the WTG, I think the GIK art panels might be a nifty possibility.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/room-acoustics-system-layout-setup/52332-glenns-custom-panels.html

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

He seemed to infer that panels are probably impossible, at least that's what I gathered.

Also, with due respect, I think there is a lot more to "acoustics" than dimensions and surface materials, because well at least in my experiences, it's often what's behind the surface that can also be maddening. Nutshell: the short description service seems a bit "too easy" to me, and if anything, is probably more marketing, in hopes of selling, which of course is to be expected, but I wanted to say it.

If the OP is convinced panels are the WTG, I think the GIK art panels might be a nifty possibility.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/room-acoustics-system-layout-setup/52332-glenns-custom-panels.html

There is no magic in this. Speaker placements, Room treatments will make the biggest difference. Auto Config only do so much .... even if op gets tops of the line XT32 Pro

 

[jostenmeat]

There is no magic in this. Speaker placements, Room treatments will make the biggest difference. Auto Config only do so much .... even if op gets tops of the line XT32 Pro

I have put hundreds of lbs of treatments, I'm talking double digit panels, stuffed into a bedroom before. It was simply an impossible room. This is not an argument to room treatments making the "biggest difference", but that it can still be lots of money down the drain in a worst case scenario; simply put: it still CAN easily be a misappropriation (or waste if you want to use a stronger word) of funds. There is no guarantee, and again, my main point is that I'm not diggin' the "plug in the numbers, and here you go, just buy x of these, x of those, and if you really want the best sound in your room, another x of these special items; all for only $799!".

So I agree with your statement, but I wanted to clarify my misgivings.

And I'd like to hear from the OP about what kind, and how many, treatments he will allow.

Lastly, I will not trust a website service that doesn't know how to use the word "its". Multiple times on your link.

We don't spell hers as her's, or yours as your's. It's is a contraction of it and is.

 

[TLS Guy]

So my "new" home theater room has seriously bad acoustics. The house was built in 1936 but the family room is a fairly new addition. The listening area in the family room is 9 ft wide by 13 ft deep. The problem is the inside wall is brick (it is an old brick house and the inside wall used to be the outside wall of the house) and the outside wall has nice deep glass windows overlooking the yard. The room looks great but the acoustics are awful. I'm attaching some pics.

Any ideas? I am currently running floorstanding speakers (PSB image T-6) and they do not work well in the space. I am thinking of replacing them with some smaller bookshelf speakers and a sub for a 2.1 set up. I was thinking of picking up the NHT absolute zeros and B-10D sub. The speakers need to go fairly close to the wall so I was thinking that sealed speakers might help out. The reason I was thinking of replacing the floorstanders with smaller bookshelf speakers is that I wanted to mimic something like a nearfield set up so that the system at least sounds good while you are sitting on the couch (if that makes any sense).

Actually that room does not look the worst of rooms acoustically by a long shot.

It is live in terms of reflection, and will find faults in less able speakers like the devil, but allow really good speakers to shine.

You have glass on one side, and brick on the other, this will cause a lot of early reflections. Brick is actually a pretty good acoustic surface. I never pass an opportunity to make use of a nearby glass window. Your floor is also live by the look of it, so a very low Q speaker design is mandatory in that room. Any speaker in there must be critically damped unless you want to lay some thick carpet.

I feel confident I could design and voice speakers to sound good in that space.

You are listening in the near filed by the sound of it. So your idea of using bookshelves is a good one.

I think a pair of ATC SCM 7s with a good sealed sub would likely sound very good. Those speakers a better than what you now have by many orders of magnitude.

ADTG has just received his pair.

One thing I would do it to center your system on the room, so that the speakers are the same distance form the walls. In other words move the TV to the left and the right speaker a similar distance to the left.

 

[bikemig]

Well if the ATC SCM 7s sound better than the PSB Image T-6s by several orders of magnitude, I'd be really happy because I love my T-6s. I'm thinking of moving them to the living room which is very good acoustically.

I've googled the ATC SCM7s and it does not look like that they are that easy to find in the US but I'll check them out. I'll also center the HT in the room.

Yeah the problem is clearly reflections off the walls. When I first set this up when we moved into the house, the sound was really thin. Adding a carpet really helped. But I think the problem is that the T-6s disperse sound and I wanted something that had less dispersal and which would work well shoved back against the wall. I can't move the unit too far forward because of space limitations. Which is why I thought of the NHTs since they are sealed, have a 30 day money back guarantee, and would allow me to set up something like a nearfield set up centered on the couch. I can do the whole set up for around a grand.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well if the ATC SCM 7s sound better than the PSB Image T-6s by several orders of magnitude, I'd be really happy because I love my T-6s. I'm thinking of moving them to the living room which is very good acoustically.

I've googled the ATC SCM7s and it does not look like that they are that easy to find in the US but I'll check them out. I'll also center the HT in the room.

Yeah the problem is clearly reflections off the walls. When I first set this up when we moved into the house, the sound was really thin. Adding a carpet really helped. But I think the problem is that the T-6s disperse sound and I wanted something that had less dispersal and which would work well shoved back against the wall. I can't move the unit too far forward because of space limitations. Which is why I thought of the NHTs since they are sealed, have a 30 day money back guarantee, and would allow me to set up something like a nearfield set up centered on the couch. I can do the whole set up for around a grand.

Actually you do not need a narrow dispersion speaker, that will make matters worse. You need a speaker with wide, but very accurate dispersion.

You can order the SCM 7 here.

You can ask ADTG where he bought his. He seems very impressed with them.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Lastly, I will not trust a website service that doesn't know how to use the word "its". Multiple times on your link.

We don't spell hers as her's, or yours as your's. It's is a contraction of it and is.

That is a fine point.
I know my grammar is simply atrocious, but I have a good reason for this pickle...

As for bad grammar for vendor which provide services for acoustic analysis and treatments are not forgivable

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah the problem is clearly reflections off the walls. When I first set this up when we moved into the house, the sound was really thin. Adding a carpet really helped. But I think the problem is that the T-6s disperse sound and I wanted something that had less dispersal and which would work well shoved back against the wall. I can't move the unit too far forward because of space limitations. Which is why I thought of the NHTs since they are sealed, have a 30 day money back guarantee, and would allow me to set up something like a nearfield set up centered on the couch. I can do the whole set up for around a grand.

A room with reflections is not necessarily a bad room. For instance, how does your wife's voice sound in the room in the vicinity of the speakers? I bet pretty much like it usually does.

It is just that ambient spaces focus on some specific speaker shortcomings like a laser beam.

1). Poor handling by the designer of the half space/full space transition of the speaker will be revealed in an ambient room with devastating effects.

2). Poor off axis response and especially one that does not mirror accurately the on axis response will cause lots of trouble.

3). Discontinuities in crossover transitions, will be revealed.

So what you need is a very good set of speakers. If it is a bookshelf you want, you won't find a better one that the SCM 7 I doubt.

As usually the case with rooms, it is the speaker's shortcomings that become dominant and not the room, though of course rooms interact with speakers, but with good ones seldom in a devastating way, with poor speakers the reverse is true.

 

[GIK Acoustics]

As usually the case with rooms, it is the speaker's shortcomings that become dominant and not the room, though of course rooms interact with speakers, but with good ones seldom in a devastating way, with poor speakers the reverse is true.

I think I would disagree with this. Even just looking at a plot as simple as frequency response, speakers are usually pretty flat. Even though they may have large peaks, they are usually only a few dB. Most of the speakers I have seen are roughly +/- 2dB from flat. However, even a VERY good purpose built room by an acoustician hardly comes close to that. An exceptional room would measure around +/- 5dB to +/- 10dB. In comparison, most acoustically untreated rooms we see is more like +/- 20dB to +/- 30dB. You would think this as an extreme, but it is pretty typical.

I do not disagree however that the speakers play an immense role, and what you listed is certainly very important. From experience, I just believe adding acoustic treatment will make a much more profound difference in the room, especially noticeable when your mains are a decent distance away from you.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Well you need to add some absorption in there. Brick walled rooms generally have horrible bass issues, nothing to dampen the room modes, which means big (20dB type thing) peaks and deep dips.

Solutions to solve the bass issues generally involve a combination of :

- multiple subs AND EQ to handle the range <100Hz
- bass trapping for the range 100-300Hz

If you don't like the look of bass trapping I'd advise building a false wall at the front or back of your room to hide all the bass trapping in there.

Anyway you look at it...it's going to be expensive to fix.