Email I sent to HD Radio

W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
The points I make speak for themselves, hopefully I'm posting this in good company that understands where I'm coming from:
"I am an audio engineer looking for a new car stereo in my car and noticed the Pioneer DEH-P9400BH boasts HD Radio. What really surprised me was this claim:

'With HD Radio, you can listen to the radio in the same unmatched fidelity as your digital music. Your FM stations now with CD-quality sound...'

The standard for CD-quality is 16-bit, 44.1kHz sample rate as uncompressed wav files, as was defined by the Sony engineers in the early 1980s. Is HD Radio really broadcasting true redbook standard CD specs in their audio files, with zero data compression? If so, that's amazing. I'd at least think there would be some lossLESS compression going on. What exactly do you guys define as CD-quality, because mp3s do not meet CD quality by a long shot as they are a lossy compression format, even at high bitrates like 320kbps. Just for giggles, I once did the math on how high the mp3 bitrate would need to be for no data to be lost, and an mp3 would have to boast 1,411kbps to truly be CD quality, but at that point it's not compressing anything. Please tell me your 'CD quality' claim meets the industry standard definition and is not preying on the public's misconception of high bitrate mp3s being CD quality on the basis that they sound 'good enough.' This is not a snarky e-mail for the sake of it; I truly am interested in upgrading my 5-year-old stereo and am tired of listening to my iPod all the time (which is filled with wav files, not mp3s). If there is true high-fidelity audio to be streamed, count me in as a happy customer who's tired of my stale iTunes library. "
I kept getting an error on their contact page saying the comments field was too long (but without telling me exactly how too long it was) so I had to whittle down the actual e-mail a bit, but the aforementioned block of text was the initial whole thing.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The points I make speak for themselves, hopefully I'm posting this in good company that understands where I'm coming from:

I kept getting an error on their contact page saying the comments field was too long (but without telling me exactly how too long it was) so I had to whittle down the actual e-mail a bit, but the aforementioned block of text was the initial whole thing.
You won't get any useful information out of iBiquity, just obfuscating falsehoods.

This is the scoop, I put together on my blog.

Under the best of circumstances max bit rate is 130 kbs, but in practice is never over 90, usually around 40 kbs and I have found can be around 20 kbs!

It is said that 180 kbs is equivalent to analog FM.

It is not, the BBC have maximized their 180 kbs stream ACC3. They use there own coyopa servers designed in house. It is pretty good but not FM quality. The BBC admit that and now use 350 kbs in the UK, this is comparable to good analog FM, although the problems and advantages are different.

My friends Merc has a radio that defaults to HD, and you have to set it to analog every time you switch on. Even in the car a the iBiquity iBOC souds lousy.

Thank goodness the excellent sound system in my Chevy Equinox does not have HD.
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
I just read your blog. Wow, that sounds like something I want nothing to do with.

Is there any way I could get Pandora in my car stereo? I'd be willing to pay for a subscription. I usually just hook my iPod into the dock connector own my current stereo but getting bored with my iPod's music selection.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I just read your blog. Wow, that sounds like something I want nothing to do with.

Is there any way I could get Pandora in my car stereo? I'd be willing to pay for a subscription. I usually just hook my iPod into the dock connector own my current stereo but getting bored with my iPod's music selection.
I don't use Pandora, but I see they have a mobile app for cars, via smart phone.
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
argh, I don't have a smartphone. Was hoping there would be a car stereo unit that handled Pandora all by itself, streaming and everything, without needing to plug a smartphone into it. Looks like it doesn't exist yet. :(
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
You will still need some sort of 3G/4G internet service provider to get the intrawebz into your car. Once you have an Internet connection, then any Pandora player could be setup to play in your car if you get a head unit equipped with an aux audio input.

Realistically, if you are going to be paying for a 3G/4G internet connection, you might as well get a smart phone and pair it with a head unit that supports the functionality you want like this one...

JVC Arsenal KD-A735BT CD receiver at Crutchfield.com

I'm thinking I may end up putting a couple of AppleTV units in my minivan so that we can wireless stream video content to the screens in the car. So, there are definitely some cool options out there, but you have to be willing to deal with what is out there, and right now, smart phones are already out there.
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
...Realistically, if you are going to be paying for a 3G/4G internet connection, you might as well get a smart phone and pair it with a head unit that supports the functionality...
The only problem with that is: the way I have my iPod's dock connected to my Pioneer head unit right now is through a dock cable that's routed through the back of the unit and into the sunglasses tray in my car, just below the climate controls in the center dash. I just leave my iPod tucked away in there with the tray door closed for days at a time, only taking it out to bring it inside the house once in a while. If I connected a smartphone, I'd be opening and closing that tray all the time to take my phone with me once I got out of the car, only to put it back in and reconnect it every time I got in the car. If you saw my setup in my car, you'd see how much of a pain in the @$$ it would be to do this. This setup works great for my iPod because I'm not needing to take my iPod with me when I get out of my car or go inside the house, but I can't really just leave a smartphone in the tray all the time without people wondering why I'm never answering my phone.

So once again, it looks like what I'm wanting isn't there on the market yet: a head unit that will handle internet streaming all by itself.

Unless I bought a smartphone simply for internet access to sit in the car all the time, and keep my current flip phone to actually make calls with.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
If you purchased an iPhone (4 or 4s to keep the same dock connector) you could just use the existing setup you have and add the smartphone capabilities with Pandora and 3G internet. I think some of the carriers are even giving away the iPhone 4 with a contract and a 4s for $99 bucks.
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
That wouldn't be a bad idea and I appreciate your help. However, that solution still requires the use of a smartphone. I'm trying to nail down whether there's an option on the market currently that offers what I'm looking for, which is a car stereo unit that can stream Pandora by itself, without the need for a smartphone. I'm guessing no?
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Well, you can get an Audi with the Audi connect system. I'm pretty sure it's got internet radio along with a whole bunch of other features (wifi hotspot, google earth, etc). Ignoring the cost of the car, I believe there would be an additional $30/month bill from t-mobile :)
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
Maybe I could get an Audi with the service upgrade, lol.
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
HD Radio never did respond. Seems tacky for a company to not even send me a boiler-plate response.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
HD Radio never did respond. Seems tacky for a company to not even send me a boiler-plate response.
That is what I expected.

iBiquity go to huge lengths to conceal how miserable the bit rate is and their massive use of lossy compression.

They tell the radio stations that it allows them to broadcast a "CD quality" signal. Of course it is nowhere in striking distance of "CD Quality".

A while back Minnesota public radio were constantly claiming over the air, that listeners would get "CD quality" sound if they invested in an HD radio.

I had a huge fight with them over this, and made them stop this false claim over the air. To their credit, the engineering staff backed me with their administration on this issue and the false claim going out over the air was stopped.

I suspect there was backhanders or at least some very expensive lunches to FCC commissioners by iBiquity.
 
W

wlmmn

Junior Audioholic
A while back Minnesota public radio were constantly claiming over the air, that listeners would get "CD quality" sound if they invested in an HD radio.

I had a huge fight with them over this, and made them stop this false claim over the air. To their credit, the engineering staff backed me with their administration on this issue and the false claim going out over the air was stopped.
Good for you man. I like hearing stories like that.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
If I connected a smartphone, I'd be opening and closing that tray all the time to take my phone with me once I got out of the car, only to put it back in and reconnect it every time I got in the car....

...a head unit that will handle internet streaming all by itself.
Well, the JVC unit I linked above caught my eye because of this:

"Control PANDORA® Internet radio
JVC makes it easy to play your favorite PANDORA® Internet Radio stations. iPhone users can control PANDORA® when connected to the USB slot, while Android and Blackberry owners get full control of Pandora over the Bluetooth connection, depending on your phone's features."

This means that with an Android phone you do NOT plug it in. You sit down with the phone still in your pocket, turn on your car, and the radio will receive Pandora from the phone directly without any need to plug the phone in at all.

This is why I'm doing AppleTVs in my car. I can get in the car, turn on my Phone, then run a video from my phone to the AppleTV, to the monitors in my car and I don't have to plug in a single wire to do it. Keeps it super simple and clean on the day-to-day use.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, the JVC unit I linked above caught my eye because of this:

"Control PANDORA® Internet radio
JVC makes it easy to play your favorite PANDORA® Internet Radio stations. iPhone users can control PANDORA® when connected to the USB slot, while Android and Blackberry owners get full control of Pandora over the Bluetooth connection, depending on your phone's features."

This means that with an Android phone you do NOT plug it in. You sit down with the phone still in your pocket, turn on your car, and the radio will receive Pandora from the phone directly without any need to plug the phone in at all.

This is why I'm doing AppleTVs in my car. I can get in the car, turn on my Phone, then run a video from my phone to the AppleTV, to the monitors in my car and I don't have to plug in a single wire to do it. Keeps it super simple and clean on the day-to-day use.
I actually read further into this and similar units. The trick is this :
Until only the most recent android models like SG3 - usb streaming audio was not possible at all, which means that all Head units way to get audio from android device is using bluetooth - which of course too bad imo to be used for in-car entertainment - maybe for voice directions, but that's about it.
USB is used to read the info and provide controls (usually with special app installed on device)
btw: None of head units I looked into support FLAC.

Situation with iDevices is much better unfortunately and I don't see yet any real progress with android car head controllers.

Clarion have a 2 din unit coming up soon. Parrot already released one, but its still buggy and very limited. One of the better solution I seen yet is Nexus 7 tablet in Dodge Ram custom install by Sonix Electronics
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
...is using bluetooth - which of course too bad imo to be used for in-car entertainment...
I'm not familiar with the audio quality drop when used with Bluetooth... That was pretty much the solution which was in place and I thought current versions of stereo Bluetooth were pretty high for wireless audio quality?

USB is used to read the info and provide controls (usually with special app installed on device)
Yes, except with the newest Android stuff, which appears to allow for full control over Bluetooth. Unless that statement I quoted is wrong. I'm truly not sure, since I haven't purchased one.

One of the better solution I seen yet is Nexus 7 tablet in Dodge Ram custom install by Sonix Electronics
This one seems like it may be a real winner.

Why not go with a Touch with wi-fi and build it into the car in a convenient location with it hard wired to the stereo. Then, go with a smart phone with an internet connection. Just turn on the sharing for the internet connection and have your iPod Touch connect to your phone when you get in. No plugging in the phone or anything else, it can stay in your pocket. But, it will give you better access to Pandora and your music collection with a hard wired high-quality connection.

Car audio never quite seems to have exactly what someone is after it always seems. You kind of have to customize it all to put it together.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
You won't get any useful information out of iBiquity, just obfuscating falsehoods.

This is the scoop, I put together on my blog.
Interesting blog. If I may... $0.02 worth.

First note: HD Radio means "Hybrid Digital" not "High Definition". Just to be clear.

The test you attempted has a few flaws in it. First, the audio path from the source at the station to FM tx and the HD tx was not identical. It can't be for several reasons. The nature of audio processing for FM is entirely different from processing for HD. You can't really compare HD to FM without audio going into both systems, and few broadcasters will ever even come close to doing that. FM processing is in the world of the wild and wooly. The devices used for that job have almost 40 years of development behind them, but the goals of FM processing haven't changed much. However, even classical stations that should, in theory, be lightly processed are actually processed quite a bit. No point in the nuty-boltsy details here, but one of the intentional side effects of some processors is bass boost. Another is image enhancement, and of course dynamics control. What makes FM processing fundamentally different from HD processing is the presence of the pre-emphasis curve, and the restricted bandwidth caused by the 19KHz stereo pilot. Pre-emphasis is essentially a 17dB boost at 15KHz that starts just below 1KHz. A complimentary de-emphasis curve is applied in the receiver. The result is flat response, but reduced transmission noise. The difficulty is that modern recordings have lots of high end material that easily overmodulate a transmitter unless specially processed. The 19KH pilot tone must be transmitted without audio surrounding it, so all audio must be low-pass filtered so that very little energy is present above about 17KHz. The filtering process is complex, and now realized digitally.

By comparison, HD has no pre-emphasis, and no 19KHz pilot. Standard FM processing would not be appropriate at all, and that dictates an entirely different audio processor chain. The two will not sound alike. But which one sounds more like the source material? Who can say? I'd hazard that the FM processor will tend to hype certain aspects, which might make the HD process sound lifeless and dull by comparison. None of that defines how HD can sound, though. You've just uncovered a difference in the transmission chain.

All of the above makes me sound like an HD Radio booster. I'm not, in fact more of the opposite. It's a dumb transmission idea, and IMHO, doomed to failure, but not for lack of audio quality. The low bit-rate is inexcusable, and unnecessary, except for the fact that in the USA, HD Radio is placed on top of existing FM stations, diplexed right in. Dumb idea also. If HD radio was on a separate band, bandwidth wouldn't have been a problem, bit rates could have been higher, and we could even have had 5.1 channel radio. Oh well.

I recently had a new AVR on the bench for prepping for a client's installation. I fired up the HD Radio, and programmed identical FM presets. In our area there are more than a dozen HD signals to play with of varying bit rates. In many cases the HD surprised me. The separation was better than FM, it was more gently processed so sounded less energetic and dense, but with more dynamics, and it sounded lower distortion than FM. That's in most cases, there were some bad HD signals too. The classical station in town had a worse HD signal than its FM, for example.

The experience didn't leave me running out to buy an HD radio for my own, but it did put it in a somewhat better light for me than it had before. FM takes a beating in most reception situations, HD survives better. FM processing is aggressive, HD doesn't have to be. But, FM is uncompressed from a digital bit stream standpoint, where HD radio is beat up bad. It's a trade off, neither is perfect, and the preferences are often situational. I wouldn't give up on HD radio totally, but you might want to try both on each station then pick your favorite. Don't assume the HD Radio signature sound is all the bit-rate reduction, it's an entirely different audio chain too.
 
A

avengineer

Banned
Just as a sanity check, HD Radio is not CD quality, but neither is FM. The theoretical dynamic range of 16 bits (without noise shaping) is 96db. HD radio can do that, but FM is 85db transmitted, typically in the mid 70s received. FM channel separation is around 50db transmitted, degrading to mid 40s received. CD separation is theoretically the same as the dynamic range, same for HD. CD and HD audio bandwidth is 20KHz where FM stops shy if 17KHz, typically 15KHz. The low frequency limit on a CD and HD might be 10Hz, FM falls off quickly below 20Hz because of AFC limitations. FM looses in THD and IMD too, especially when processing is involved.

You can see why HD Radio proponents try to say it's CD quality, right? But what CD and FM do share is the lack of artifacts caused by severe bit rate reduction present in HD Radio, the results of which are program dependent and range from the barely audible to the "you've got to be kidding!"

The sanity check is that radio reception itself runs from acceptable to "change the station", where HD reception runs from perfect to analog fall-back, with a fairly large area covered by "perfect". With the proposed 10db signal strength increase HD may just beat the pants of FM in terms of reception.

So we audiophiles have low bit rate audio to put up with, but radio audiences are content drive, not audio quality driven. That's why there are AM stations that still dominate their markets. With the gradual proliferation of high rate uncompressed file distribution, we probably should source our music elsewhere and just let radio do what it does best: talk.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I'll let others chime on technical details, but I'll post my experiences with Pioneer DEH-4400HD
I choose it specifically since this unit is intended to serve as amplifier for my droid phone audio apps
But since it's also has onboard HD I am using it as well

Quality - Then reception is good - is a bit lower, but still very comparable to FM, but as mentioned both worse than original CD

But more importantly is content - HD allowed me to receive for free almost double the stations I used to get with regular FM and there A LOT of great music there with less commercials. As one time investment I think it was really worth it.
I got it on sale here and installed it myself
 
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