Velodyne EQMAX15 vs SVS PB12NSD

[bassguy]

Hi audioholics, can someone offer their advice? I'm looking at buying the Velodyne EQMAX15 sub or the SVS PB12NSD - as far as price (where I live - Australia) they are within 200 dollars of each other- the next model SVS is $900 more so it's out. I understand the differences in power (400RMS to 750 RMS)and according to audioholics and other website reviews - apparently the Velodyne offers better frequency matching for music applications as it's freq range appears to sit 25hz and up - versus the SVS being 20hz and up (but the SVS is better for movies).
But don't most action movies have great music sound tracks that go with them - would that mean the Velodyne is the better choice even for movies? Music would make up 95% of the sound you hear versus the small amount of explosions and booms you might hear in a modern action flick right?
My biggest question is, out of all the subs you've seen and heard which sub is likely to last the longest - which one is the most reliable - I know it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question here. I have had 3 subs and overtime they have all broken down.
The SVS PB12NSD has a 5 year warranty - but I've never heard one in the flesh, no one has them in my end of the Country (I can still order them) so I can't demo the sub at all. I'm told it can 'dig deeper' really pronounce the lower register of bass sounds very well - but without hearing it's just scary to buy something unheard. The Velodyne EQMAX15 has very little reviews on the internet (as I'm sure it's very new to the market) has a 2 year warranty a heap of cool features (like remote control, auto eq etc etc) but after 2 years is it likely to have issues? My local retailer (the only home audio hifi store for 400 KMS also has this sub but won't let me demo it - as he says sub demos are inaccurate and "he won't do them for people anymore". Anyways so technically I won't be able to listen to this one either.
Please someone out there tell me - if you had the money (and the EQMAX15 and SVS PB12NSD where the only two subs you could decide on) and you loved watching movies and TV and listening to music and you weren't going to buy two of them What would you do, what would you buy - and why?

 

[Steve81]

Judging by Josh Ricci's measurements of both, I'd probably lean towards the SVS.

My reasons?

For starters, the EQMax15 is really only delivering solid output down to 32Hz. After that, it's dropping like a rock and the distortion is going through the roof. I mean, at 25Hz, it can only put out 95.7dB with 26.2%; the SVS is delivering 105dB with 9.2% distortion at this point. I think its fair to say with movie special effects, there's going to be a pretty big difference.

Second reason: bandwidth linearity. Even at its limits, 6.4dB separates the maximum output from the minimum output from 20Hz to 120Hz for the SVS. The Velo on the other hand slightly exceeds 10dB from 32Hz to 120Hz (the SVS varies less than 4dB in this band), with a big hump centered at 63Hz. IOW, if you're pushing things hard, the SVS is going to sound more even and consistent, versus the peakier Velodyne.

Now don't take all of this to mean I think the Velo sucks. It delivers considerable output from 40Hz to 120Hz with remarkably low distortion and great decay. If you were strictly using it for music with little content below 40Hz, it seems like a good choice, and if you don't happen to be using a newer receiver, it's auto-eq would give it a useful advantage over the SVS.

However, the SVS is still capable of delivering respectable, if not earth shattering output, anywhere from 20Hz to 120Hz with fairly low distortion. I think it amazing that it ran through the 105dB level compression sweep with less than 5% distortion from 20Hz on up. About the only negatives it has are its group delay and decay rate around port tuning (the audibility of which is debatable) and its relative simplicity versus the Velo.

Edit: One last note: probably one of the nicest things about the SVS is that it is a truly bulletproof subwoofer. You won't really be able to make it misbehave. Reading Josh's notes, that doesn't seem to be the case with the EQMax 15.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Hi Bassguy,

I know I replied to you on my youtube video as well, but I just wanted to chime in here that agree with Steve81's evaluation.

 

[bassguy]

Guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with this one.
I've done the ring around dealers in Australia - most don't know SVS products at all one of them really criticized me for considering buying a sub unheard from an importer more than 3,000Kms away from me. He was telling me you 'can't hear' l20hz freq. in rooms when you're sitting within a couple of meters of a sub, stuff like that. He was also very critical of the velodyne subs in general (yes he wasn't the happiest chap). Anyways my wife will kill me if I spend any more money on my home theatre (after purchasing 2 subs in the past 5 years - Sony & a Proson - both have developed problems, the sony died twice and was too expensive to fix again).
Anyways what's all this got to do with these 2 subs.
I was always thinking (though having never owned one) that Velodyne was one of the best most reliable sub brands around (not sure where I formed this opinion). I had a demo of what was possible a cht-12q (about 1 year ago) and to be honest just wasn't impressed, don't remember "feeling" anything from the sub in the store.
When I saw the audioholics review of the EQMAX15 I thought, with a 15" sub and massive poweramp surely I'd get the wow factor then when watching movies. But maybe the "Wow factor" I'm thinking of it's that truly lower freq note reproduction. My old sony (a SA-WX700) did produce some of those amazing low tones - now when I read back about it's specs it was set between 20hz and upwards.
Why am I rambling like this..? Sorry, I'm just an amateur (as I'm sure you can tell). I'm a bass player, performer have some massive stage sized bass amps and cabs and a Lakland bass with the lowest 5 string notes you've ever heard - I've heard and felt some INCREDIBLE low notes in my time - but when it comes to home theatre I'm a TOTAL noob! So yes go with a powerful but distorted Velodyne that may not give me any of those truly LFE sounds I want to hear or go for a brand that I've had no experience with, but may do everything (and more) that I want - with the best warranty around?

I wish someone could make my mind up for me.. What is this free will thing!

 

[mike c]

im not familiar with the EQMAX15 ...

but i've had dual CHT-15R's before, and i wouldn't trade a PB10NSD for both of them.

yes, that's a 10"er.

back then, i was also impressed with the 1000 watt amp. but guess what, that's a 1000 watt amp at 4 ohms using a 6 ohm driver.

it also stated 23-XXXhz frequency response. but ground plane testing proved that was corner loaded AND in room in the best of circumstances.

fudge fudge galore.

the only people who say that 20hz and below is useless are those that sell something that can't do it or those that are simply ignorant.

 

[Steve81]

I've done the ring around dealers in Australia - most don't know SVS products at all one of them really criticized me for considering buying a sub unheard from an importer more than 3,000Kms away from me.

I would still warn to do your due diligence regarding the support and warranty you'd receive from SVS in Australia. I know they're fantastic here in the US, and their Canadian distributor, Sonic boom audio, is well regarded, but I don't know about their distribution network/policies in Australia.

He was telling me you 'can't hear' l20hz freq. in rooms when you're sitting within a couple of meters of a sub, stuff like that.

As Mike said, that's pure BS.

I was always thinking (though having never owned one) that Velodyne was one of the best most reliable sub brands around (not sure where I formed this opinion).

To be fair, they've been around for quite a while, so they are doing something right.

When I saw the audioholics review of the EQMAX15 I thought, with a 15" sub and massive poweramp surely I'd get the wow factor then when watching movies.

FWIW, according to Josh's notes on the Velo, the 15" driver is really the limiting factor as it lacks the excursion to deliver output down deep.

In use the EQ-Max 15 has plenty of output headroom but not much extension running out of gas quickly below 30Hz. It could produce some over driven noises if pushed too hard with the demanding low frequencies present in some movie soundtracks. The performance with music content or content not having extended deep bass was very good though and it will fill a large space nicely if not asked to play too deeply.

Interestingly the driver does not appear to be much different from the one employed in the CT-150 of over a decade ago. It is a modest driver without a lot of excursion capability, which will limit it's low frequency output capabilities. This driver appeared to be the weak link in the system as the amplifier seemed to have plenty of juice. Enough so that at times it appeared to be too much for the driver to handle. A driver upgrade to a more robust unit would likely take this subwoofer to the next level and allow it to extend deeper in frequency.

Data-Bass

 

[shadyJ]

To be fair, 20 hz is very close to the lower frequency limit of human hearing, and you have to have a lot of it for it to make a difference. Music almost never has 20 hz content in it, and it certainly doesn't crop up in every movie either, mainly just action movies made within the last ten or twenty years. I wouldn't call serious 20 hz output useless, but I wouldn't assign too much value to it either.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Music almost never has 20 hz content in it, and it certainly doesn't crop up in every movie either, mainly just action movies made within the last ten or twenty years. I wouldn't call serious 20 hz output useless, but I wouldn't assign too much value to it either.

That's what I used to think, but the RTA function on my OmniMic shows that quite a few contemporary jazz CDs have some pretty substantial content down to 20Hz. Synthesizers, obviously, but important to the music nonetheless.

 

[Irvrobinson]

the only people who say that 20hz and below is useless are those that sell something that can't do it or those that are simply ignorant.

I agree, and I used to be one of the ignoramuses. I listen only to music, and fought getting a sub for years, thinking that good quality bass down to 30Hz or so was all one needed. Wrong. Of course, 20Hz bass isn't important to chamber music, but there's a lot of content that sounds more real when you have strong response right to 20Hz. I'm sure for action movies the bar is even lower.

 

[mike c]

i especially like their "scientific" explanation that in a normal sized room the 20hz wavelength was longer the any of the room dimension, therefore one could not feel or hear 20hz anyway.

i kept quiet, moved on ... went home and enjoyed my 20hz.

 

[bassguy]

Thanks Mike C you just reminded me what the "audio expert" I was talking to (in a store) was telling me about 20hz wavelengths as he was speaking badly of Velodyne and SVS statistics (on websites) quoting these lower frequency performance results. Basically he was saying they were all useless and not to be convinced of a subs quality based on LFE tests. Thing is it's practically impossible for us buyers to actually hear most of these subs in the one place at the one time - and then you've got the infinite amount of differences in the homes we are going to put them in. I argue that tests seen on brilliant websites like audioholics and others are actually giving consumers far more information then they've ever had before to actually make a logical informed choice on subwoofers. No wonder many sales people are scared of this new army of informed customers - they may not actually be able to move the wrong product onto us anymore. When I started this thread and said my wife won't be happy if I spend more money on my home theatre, what I meant to say was - I can't keep wasting money on bad subs - and the stores dont have, or won't let me demo their products (or their too far away for me to get to) so all I have to go off is the advice of sales people good and bad (which isn't always bad by the way) or the excellent reviews of such websites as these and others and the advice of forums such as this one

 

[NewHTbuyer]

The way I see it, the happiest consumer is one who gets a product that matches their needs the best, because often one can't conclusively say that product A is better than B. if I was in your spot, I would ask myself the following questions.

Does SVS honor it's warranty in Australia? ( someone already stated this)

Do I watch enough movies that I want the ultra low bass output, below 30 Hz, or is that not important to me?

Do I care about the extra bells and whistles on the Velodyne?

I watch way more movies than music and I setup my sub, calibrated it once withAudyssey built into my AVR, and have not touched it in five years. So for me, the SVS would be a no brainer. Others might really enjoy a remote for their sub so they could change it on the fly, but only you can answer that question about your needs.

Good luck.