Subwoofer Dilemma

[slipperybidness]

If you can do 18"w in-between the speakers and tv stand I would get a pair of these for about $1500.

POWER SOUND AUDIO — XV15

Too big and tall

 

[slipperybidness]

I would still wager (as the user reviews seem to corroborate) that the SB13 would feel more powerful for the vast majority of the time for the simple reason that there are very few scenes in any movie that are centered in the band where the PB12-NSD has the advantage (20-25Hz). Simply put, there's a lot more going on in most soundtracks at 40Hz than 20Hz.

Thanks for the info, I guess I never realized that the movies have more content at 40Hz. I was looking at digging as deep as possible.

Looking like the SB13 Ultra is the choice from my original list. Remembering my size limits, I see a few others I would like some opinions on and compare to SB13.

1) How about either HSU ULS-15 Subwoofer or
VTF-2 MK4 Subwoofer

2) How about the Rythmic Rythmik Audio • 15" 600WRMS servo subwoofer F15HP

Can the SB13 compete with the 15" drivers of either HSU or Rythmic? And the HSU and Rythmic are a bit cheaper.

 

[Steve81]

Can the SB13 compete with the 15" drivers of either HSU or Rythmic? And the HSU and Rythmic are a bit cheaper.

I'm not sure its possible to say for certain given that neither of them have really been measured by someone like Ricci, or at least using similar methodology (that I'm aware of at least). Still, IIRC the 13.5" Ultra driver has something like 3" of linear peak to peak excursion, so I'd imagine the SB13 can keep up reasonably well.

Regarding the VTF 2.4, I'd expect the PB12-NSD to best that, especially down deep.

Is DIY or a custom build a possibility? As I noted in another thread, a pair of these would be interesting...

Data-Bass

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm not sure its possible to say for certain given that neither of them have really been measured by someone like Ricci, or at least using similar methodology (that I'm aware of at least). Still, IIRC the 13.5" Ultra driver has something like 3" of linear peak to peak excursion, so I'd imagine the SB13 can keep up reasonably well.

Regarding the VTF 2.4, I'd expect the PB12-NSD to best that, especially down deep.

Is DIY or a custom build a possibility? As I noted in another thread, a pair of these would be interesting...

Data-Bass

About the custom build....Yes and No.

Yes, I would be up for a custom build....eventually. I already have 1 audio project almost complete http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/81257-technics-integrated-steampunk-mod.html

I just started on my next audio project that will also be a class project, the Quickie Pre-amp from Bottlehead.

I am also working on my 1/5 scale R/C cars right now, so it will be a while before a DIY sub can hit my radar.

But, in the short-term, no, I would prefer to go the commercial sub route. Then, when (if) I do ever go DIY on the sub, then I have a reference sub for comparison

Man, I have been reading up on those custom Infinity Reference 12 HT builds and I am kicking myself right now. A few months ago, I sold 2 of them that I pulled out of my car to replace with a single 10, before I read about their usefulness as DIY HT subs

 

[slipperybidness]

How about the Epik Legend? Is it anywhere near the same league as the HSU ULS15 or the PB12 NSD

 

[pbc]

Given the sheer size of your room, a single subwoofer just isn't going to do much under 25Hz IMO. Look at Marshall's graph by way of example. He gets almost no room gain and the frequency response of the SB13 follows its natural response, dropping once it hits the high 20's and is down 3db by 23/25Hz or so. Whereas the PB12NSD actually has a bit more linear response down to its tuning point, and then falls off much faster. The PB12NSD however, doesn't have the 25Hz and up performance that the SB13 will give you. You could add more PB12NSD's to get better mid-bass performance, but you couldn't add more SB13 Ultra's to get a flatter curve to 20Hz as you'd get the same frequency response, just more headroom across the range, short of externally EQ'ing the units if they can handle more boost.

Even in my room, which is 1800ish cubic feet and has lots of room gain down low, I was hitting the limiter circuits when pushing the sub to -5dB or so to reference. SVS did such a great job with the limiter it's not noticeable 99% of the time (unless you're up close to the subwoofer or really listening for it). But it's doing just that, limiting output. Which is why SVS recommends it for small to medium sized rooms. The SB13 does excel from 25Hz up though, which is where the vast majority of movie effects live, and likely why it's not that easy to notice what's missing.

Having said that, I wouldn't focus on 15-25Hz in your room, personally. You're just not going to get there with a single subwoofer, short of say an LMS-18 in a 20" cube with a ton of power behind it and a MiniDSP EQ device.

The Epik Empire is probably a pretty good choice, as it has loads of output above 30hz, assuming you use Audyssey or something and it can tame the frequency response curve that the sub has.

Nathan at Funk Audio is also coming out with 15" sealed sub (20x20x18.5 deep) that you can opt for a higher powered amplifier (800 watts and DSP vs the standard 500 watts), and should come in under your budget, and an 18" sub (same size box) with a high efficiency 18" driver and more amp power, again under $2k for the basic finish (no rounded edges).

Edit - oops, just realized you said Epik Legend vs Empire. I'd go with the ULS15, SB13 or F15HP before the Legend, personally.

 

[Matt34]

Too big and tall

A lot shorter than the PC-13 ultra you mentioned in the first post.

Seriously though, I think you need a ported sub(s) in that room but the downside is they are generally bigger in size than sealed options.

 

[pbc]

A lot shorter than the PC-13 ultra you mentioned in the first post.

Seriously though, I think you need a ported sub(s) in that room but the downside is they are generally bigger in size than sealed options.

Agreed, the restriction of 20x20x20 though really limits the options. The PB12 NSD is probably the best ported box in that size range, but even that is 22" deep.

 

[Steve81]

Another option that comes to mind and meets the criteria (in a manner of speaking) would be a used JL F113 (or new if you're a really good negotiator). It's definitely WAF friendly, and using Ilkka's figures compared with the estimates for the SB13, it should deliver about an extra 3dB from 25Hz-80Hz along with 3-4dB greater output below that. Won't compete with a PB13U at 20Hz, but its not a total wimp either.

 

[slipperybidness]

Another option that comes to mind and meets the criteria (in a manner of speaking) would be a used JL F113 (or new if you're a really good negotiator). It's definitely WAF friendly, and using Ilkka's figures compared with the estimates for the SB13, it should deliver about an extra 3dB from 25Hz-80Hz along with 3-4dB greater output below that. Won't compete with a PB13U at 20Hz, but its not a total wimp either.

Thanks for all the input and great ideas, to everyone. I will check out the JLF113. I'm not familiar with there domestic offerings, but have seen it come up several times on the forums, and I have heard some car systems that rocked.

It's looking like the PB12-NSD may be the way to go for the near-future, that is just about the biggest box I could shove in there.

However, going by PBC's info, maybe stick with SB13 or one of the SB 15s from HSU or Rythmic.

Guess it's time to decide what I really want. The low low end extension or the movie punch in the face?

 

[slipperybidness]

Agreed, the restriction of 20x20x20 though really limits the options. The PB12 NSD is probably the best ported box in that size range, but even that is 22" deep.

Do you know, is that 22" with the grill or without the grill? If it is with the grill, I could probably get it to fit. If grill adds any more inches.......

 

[slipperybidness]

A lot shorter than the PC-13 ultra you mentioned in the first post.

Seriously though, I think you need a ported sub(s) in that room but the downside is they are generally bigger in size than sealed options.

Yeah, it was wishful thinking on the PC13. I thought I might be able to squeeze it behind the 23" overhang and be good to go, but now that I've looked at it again, I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[Steve81]

Thanks for all the input and great ideas, to everyone. I will check out the JLF113.

Meet the Fathom.

JL Audio Fathom f113 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

 

[pbc]

Can the F113 be had for $2k or under these days, outside of used of course?

 

[Steve81]

Can the F113 be had for $2k or under these days, outside of used of course?

With the retail price listed at $4000 on JLs website, I'd guess probably not. But it depends on how much leeway the dealer has, how well they're selling, etc. Still, it seems to be exactly what the OP wants, just not the price he wants

 

[Matt34]

On Audiogon I usually see the F110 under $2k used and sometimes the F112, but I've never seen a F113 that cheap.