Are LCD-LED Black levels anywhere near Plasma?

Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm defly in the camp of 14' requiring a bigger size, BUT I will say my eyes feel more fatigued with my throw distance to my 50". And that's at ~8ft, not the 14ft you have!

If it feels comfortable to you though, go for it. Upsize to make yourself happy if you want. I strongly suggest Panasonics, not just because I worked for them and every TV I've owned is one. I've also tweaked, sold, and used other TVS but in today's market I personally think they offer the best image quality for the dollar.

I do think, if you're into superb black levels, you won't find it on other TVs like you will on Panny's. Especially if they're not plasma.
 
PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
after a second measure im only11' away. Any cal. setting suggestions to over come the darkness of this panny p50u50?
 
ratso

ratso

Full Audioholic
i have an eye one and use HCFR to calibrate my samsung plasma. i can dial it in pretty close to the standard. and almost everyone on earth that sees my tv says the same thing - it's too dark. it takes a while to get used to a calibrated tv and appreciate it's darker more "film-like" look. now i am not saying that is what's going on with you but it might be. i would just pay a little extra to get it professionally calibrated and then you will have your answer.

http://http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm
 
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C

cardude99

Enthusiast
out of curiosity why on earth does everyone think plasma is the best? LED is the best there is when it comes to tv's
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
out of curiosity why on earth does everyone think plasma is the best? LED is the best there is when it comes to tv's
Nothing is the best at everything. It depends on what someone is most concerned about. This topic has been covered a lot in this forum (and I'm sure others). I'm not trying to be rude, but you can find a lot of great info by searching this site.
 
Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
out of curiosity why on earth does everyone think plasma is the best? LED is the best there is when it comes to tv's
For a user looking to minimize power consumption, you may be right on general. But as Adam said, there is no "best". It depends on what someone is looking for.

For example, best black levels in general have been plasmas. That might not be the case now with the current line of Sharp Elite TVs, but that has been the case for a loooooooong time.
 
PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
For a user looking to minimize power consumption, you may be right on general. But as Adam said, there is no "best". It depends on what someone is looking for.

For example, best black levels in general have been plasmas. That might not be the case now with the current line of Sharp Elite TVs, but that has been the case for a loooooooong time.
Plasmas are life like.
My p50u50 costs 11$ more a year in elec. then most leds.
Leds have major dimming problems.
Leds look cool, but are very unrealistic.

My opinions only.
 
M

Method

Junior Audioholic
"Unrealistic" in what way? Im not challenging you. That is a genuine question. I just got the green light from the sig otro that I could turn my kids' playroom into a hybrid "man cave", so Im in gonna be in the mkt for a TV soon (anytime between now and year end, theres no urgency). Off the cusp, without doing any research, I was going to be looking into LED's, specifically that 75" from Samsung (but its a hefty price at $11k). Back when I researched the **** out of TV's, Pioneer was just getting out of the Elite Mkt, and Pannie Plasma's where the set du jour.

Seems like that hasn't changed much.

I guess I could consider a projector too, but the room is kinda small and a funky space.

If anyone can point me in the right direction in this section of the forum, Id appreciate it.
 
PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
they tend to have that "soap opera" effect to them, at least the 120 hrz type. Im not a fan of there color reproduction capabilities.

however in your case, it sounds like led or lcd is the only way to achieve the size you want. ths sounds like a very fun project.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
"Unrealistic" in what way? Im not challenging you. That is a genuine question. I just got the green light from the sig otro that I could turn my kids' playroom into a hybrid "man cave", so Im in gonna be in the mkt for a TV soon (anytime between now and year end, theres no urgency). Off the cusp, without doing any research, I was going to be looking into LED's, specifically that 75" from Samsung
If the room is dark and you are okay at 65" in size, then there is no reason at all you shouldn't use a plasma.

LCD has issues. Higher refresh rates help deal with some of them, but they still have some small issues. Image uniformity, black levels, angle of viewing issues, blurring.

The soap opera effect can be turned off on ALL LCD TVs so I don't consider that something to worry about. If you like it, use it, if you hate it, turn it off.

But, at the end of the day, if you've done your homework then you should be aware that plasma produces a more natural image from all viewing angles with better black levels and a smoother image. This is just a natural aspect of the technology being used. The active light engine of plasma really delivers a better image.

But, LCD is more 'versatile' when it comes to brighter rooms and rooms with lots of windows.

That said, my family room has a few windows and our 64" Samsung works great in the room. Eventually we may move it to the basement (when I finish it) and put a 80" or 90" Sharp on the wall in the family room.

But, any room that you want the best possible image in really asks to have a plasma in it.

The 85" Panasonic is out there... maybe it will be at a halfway reasonable price at some point.
 
M

Method

Junior Audioholic
Gotcha. Unfortunately, this is the one room in my condo that has two huge sliding glass door (windows) in it. I can obviously control it with the shades, but just want to throw that in there.

Are LEDs thrown into the same category as LCDs at this point as far as performance?

What is "soap opera effect" slang for. I bought my dad a Samsung LCD (6000 series) and I noticed everything looked like a home movie. Couldnt stand it. Need to turn it off.

Which is the 85" plasma?...nevermind.
 
PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
I think off looks real good in a bright room, darker rooms tend to make the blacks look grey.

Soap opera effect is I think caused by the 120 hrz refresh rate? Anyway, you know how soap operas look? The way there filmed? That's the effect.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Gotcha. Unfortunately, this is the one room in my condo that has two huge sliding glass door (windows) in it. I can obviously control it with the shades, but just want to throw that in there.
Many plasma and LCD displays have reflective front glass. Be aware that this will affect things. Still, we have two large windows, then a morning room behind the family room. The reflections are more the issue, and some shades or curtains for when the light really bugs you does a great job. Very unlikely as a kid you don't remember a window bouncing off the tube TV you had that made the TV tough to watch... Same thing to deal with 30+ years later.

Are LEDs thrown into the same category as LCDs at this point as far as performance?
There are cold cathode tube lit LCD displays, and LED lit LCD displays. LED TVs are what they use in Times Square in New York City to produce billboards that are daytime viewable.

In Best Buy you are looking at LCDs, nothing else.

What is "soap opera effect" slang for. I bought my dad a Samsung LCD (6000 series) and I noticed everything looked like a home movie. Couldnt stand it. Need to turn it off.
See below, it's a long explanation.

Which is the 85" plasma?...nevermind.
Panasonic makes it, it is gorgous, it's outrageously priced right now. Unless they come out with a consumer one for under $10K, I don't expect much more life from it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The soap opera effect is the use of creative frame interpolation (CFI) or Motion Flow or a dozen different names by manufacturers. CFI converts a 60hz source (ALL TELEVSION!) and deblurs the image and inserts new frames between them. A 120hz display can convert a 60hz image (60 frames) into 120hz (120 frames). A 240hz display may be capable of delivering 240 frames.

The issue is not the additional frames, but the deblurring process. Blur is a natural part of how humans perceive motion. I do NOT like the term 'soap opera effect' - because it doesn't at all look the same.

It is far more close to a 'strobe light effect'. Where a strobe light flashes on and off very quickly, so people seem to be stopped without any blurring at all when moving very quickly.

The concept is that if you shoot a person at 1/60th of a second, then there is some blurring which occurs natually. This looks normal and smooth. If you remove the blur, so shoot the photo at 1/200th of a second (or faster) then show that image for a full 1/60th of a second, it won't look right. It will actually appear to be overly sharp, and there will be 'jumping' from one frame to the next. You see, you take a picture (1/360th of a second for easy math) then you wait another 5/360ths of a second, then you take another picture. You continue this process until you have 60 images to display in one second. But, instead of the natural blur your would have if you took 60 shots each at 6/360ths of a second, you have images with far less blur, and you are missing 5/360ths of a second of motion! You get a jump between each photo.

Video game manufacturers spent years and millions of dollars ADDING blur to the games to make them look more natural. Go into a dark room with a flashlight (non LED) and a LED flashlight - swing them back and forth. The normal flashlight has a lot of blur and moves smooth. The LED flashes on and off to fast to notice normally, but in a dark room, you see a pattern of dots floating in the air. Cool, but not at all natural. Same type of effect.

Not much detail here...
Motion interpolation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Speaking of same effect - My Pana ST30 plasma does indeed have this effect on - it does not annoying me really, but If I could disable it and back to blurred motion I would ...
BMX, do you happen to know the setting name for my TV which could disable this processing (if such exist at all)
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Speaking of same effect - My Pana ST30 plasma does indeed have this effect on - it does not annoying me really, but If I could disable it and back to blurred motion I would ...
BMX, do you happen to know the setting name for my TV which could disable this processing (if such exist at all)
PICTURE->ADVANCED SETTINGS->Intelligent Frame Creation -> OFF

That should do it.

Found the exact location on this site, which may or may not be accurate to your specific US version of the display...

Panasonic ST30 (TX-P46ST30B) 46 Inch 3D Plasma TV Review | AVForums.com - UK Online
 

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