Need the best amp

[trader247]

Sorry if this is a double post as I posted earlier in the beginners forum.

Hi, Just found this wonderful forum. I am looking for a nice amp.

I have a pair of Legacy Focus (4 ohm) speakers that I've had for years. I used to just run these off my Denon 5308CI on my home entertainment system and after about a year my Denon would keep blowing and have to go to the shop for repairs. The 5308 is rated 6-8 ohm, but I found the receiver/speaker mix in an Audiophile review and thought the receiver would hold up.

None the less, the Denon was either defective or could not feed the needed power to my Legacy Focus speakers. Long story short, I got rid of the 5308 and got the Denon 4311 instead because it was rated to 4 ohms, big mistake as this sounds like crap in comparison to my 5308.

So, now I have the 4311 and need something that can power my Legacy Focus speakers. I need a good amp recommendation that I can run from my receiver. I know I can get a Mark Levenson, McIntosh or LMM type amp, but that is not in the budget right this second. What is the best amp for the money I can get new/used to run my Legacy Focus 4 ohm speakers for around 2k give or take a little.

Thanks.

 

[templemaners]

Why don't you just get an external 2 channel amp for those instead of trying to force the 5308 or 4311 to play them? That would certainly be cheaper than $2000 I'm guessing.

How loud are you playing and far away are you sitting? Also, I wonder if your speakers have any phase/impedance complications that are putting additional strain on your receivers.

 

[trader247]

Why don't you just get an external 2 channel amp for those instead of trying to force the 5308 or 4311 to play them? That would certainly be cheaper than $2000 I'm guessing.

How loud are you playing and far away are you sitting? Also, I wonder if your speakers have any phase/impedance complications that are putting additional strain on your receivers.

I suppose I may be looking for an external amp, this is on of the thing I am trying to figure out what will work best. I see from your sig that you have a 4311 too.

I am just looking for what ever is best to run out the pre amps in the 4311, is that correct?

To answer your questions, I have a huge living room (30x40 and 15 feet tall).

So do I need an external amp, I thought they were all external if I ran it out of my AVR 4311. Any help appreciated.

Thanks

 

[templemaners]

Well, for an external amp, you'd have to go from the L/R preouts on the 4311 to the external amplifier's inputs, and then your speakers would plug into that external amp.

Given the size of your room, I think you would benefit from an external amp. Getting one of those would be better than changing the processor (5308/4311) side of things.

It also might be a matter of asking for too high of SPL's at your listening position. You have a huge room, so playing loud is going to be difficult, especially if you're sitting pretty far back.

Are you using a subwoofer(s) at all? That would take some of the strain off of the receiver as well.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If these are the original Legacy Focus design, the one with three 12" woofers, it's no wonder these are blowing out your receiver. I ran those speakers for over 12 years. A friend measured my pair, and they fell into the 2 ohm range with a capacitive phase angle for a good part of the bass octaves. We figured Legacy just paralleled three 8 ohm woofers. Though the Legacys were sensitive, like 95db/2.83v, they were a beast for an amp to drive, especially in a good size room.

For less than $2K you can get an ATI AT3002 from Reference Audio-Video, and it'll easily drive the Legacys to any volume they're capable of. There are other amps that will work just as well, but several of us use ATI amps on this forum, and they have awesome specs, low noise, excellent sound quality, and ATI really stands behind their products.

 

[ahblaza]

Why don't you just get an external 2 channel amp for those instead of trying to force the 5308 or 4311 to play them? That would certainly be cheaper than $2000 I'm guessing.

How loud are you playing and far away are you sitting? Also, I wonder if your speakers have any phase/impedance complications that are putting additional strain on your receivers.

Agree, it really sounds like you're pushing these and have some impedance dips that your receivers can't handle, there is a reason for the strain, replacing an expensive receiver with another expensive one is not the solution obviously. There are many good performing two channel external amps out there for less than $2000. I listed a few in your beginner's post, I'll list again. Use the 4311 as a pre-pro for your mains with an external amp and the AVR's amps for center and surrounds if you decide to do that at all.
The Beast
XPA-2 | 300W x 2 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier
or this
XPA-5 | 200W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier
They are both stable at four Ohms

Or this
Crown XLS2500 DriveCore Series Power Amp | GuitarCenter
The 2500 is stable into two Ohms and can be bridged for mono, and you can get $100 off with code SAVE100 hard to beat as stereo or mono amps for two at around $1100 or less.

I also suggested ATI here
ATI AT2002 Two Channel x 200 Watt Amplifier - B-Stock (120 V) - Amplifiers
Check out their multi-channel amps also.

Good call Temp, I think he is pushing too hard with those receivers or may have some other complcations, I don't know, I think those speakers need something more. I'm sure others will chime in, ADTG
Cheers Jeff

 

[trader247]

If these are the original Legacy Focus design, the one with three 12" woofers, it's no wonder these are blowing out your receiver. I ran those speakers for over 12 years. A friend measured my pair, and they fell into the 2 ohm range with a capacitive phase angle for a good part of the bass octaves. We figured Legacy just paralleled three 8 ohm woofers. Though the Legacys were sensitive, like 95db/2.83v, they were a beast for an amp to drive, especially in a good size room.

For less than $2K you can get an ATI AT3002 from Reference Audio-Video, and it'll easily drive the Legacys to any volume they're capable of. There are other amps that will work just as well, but several of us use ATI amps on this forum, and they have awesome specs, low noise, excellent sound quality, and ATI really stands behind their products.

Excellent, glad to hear that someone knows what I went through. The 5308 sounded fantastic, but when it blew it didn't matter as I had no more sound.

I will look into the ATI for sure. I did have it mentioned on another post (same question, sorry mods) that the Crown XLS2500 or the XPA-2 were possible candidates, any opinions appreciated.

By the way, can/should I bi amp the Legacy's or will I need two of the 2 channel amps to do this? If so, will the ATI accommodate this?

Thanks

PS, I love my music loud and with a big room it certainly takes all I can give it. I love the Legacy Focus speakers, they are the Focus HD's.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I love the Legacy Focus speakers, they are the Focus HD's.

Oh, the HDs. They're different. Two 12" woofers. Legacy changed the crossover and the drivers, and the HDs aren't so annoying to drive as the originals I had. I bi-amped mine with great success, but I doubt the HDs will benefit from bi-amping with an amp like the AT3002. Spend your money elsewhere, like perhaps a pair of subs for that huge room.

 

[trader247]

Oh, the HDs. They're different. Two 12" woofers. Legacy changed the crossover and the drivers, and the HDs aren't so annoying to drive as the originals I had. I bi-amped mine with great success, but I doubt the HDs will benefit from bi-amping with an amp like the AT3002. Spend your money elsewhere, like perhaps a pair of subs for that huge room.

I believe they are Focus HD's. But they have 3 12" woofers with two in the front and one in the rear.

Focus HD | Legacy Audio - Building the World's Finest Audio Systems

By the way, I have a single Jamo Sub Woofer A3SUB.3

 

[trader247]

My bad, they must be the original Legacy Focus.

Do you recommend bi amp then?

Thanks

 

[MosesMalone]

If you have $2,000 to spend on a brand new amp, i'd go for an Emotiva XPR-5. It's most probably overkill for what you have but specs wise, it's the best value for the money in this price range. I have one of these beasts myself and it drives my 4 ohms, 87dB speakers effortlessly and provides more than enough headroom for my setup. I have mine connected to a 4311CI, the sound is silky smooth. It also looks beautiful in real life, has high resale value, and you get a nice long, transferrable warranty, with great customer service.

 

[PENG]

I wouldn't go with anything less powerful than the XPA-1. Two for less than 2K.

 

[trader247]

If you have $2,000 to spend on a brand new amp, i'd go for an Emotiva XPR-5. It's most probably overkill for what you have but specs wise, it's the best value for the money in this price range. I have one of these beasts myself and it drives my 4 ohms, 87dB speakers effortlessly and provides more than enough headroom for my setup. I have mine connected to a 4311CI, the sound is silky smooth. It also looks beautiful in real life, has high resale value, and you get a nice long, transferrable warranty, with great customer service.

Are you using this for bi amp since it has 5 channels? Do you recommend bi amp and will this do if so, if not what do you recommend.

Thanks

 

[MosesMalone]

Are you using this for bi amp since it has 5 channels? Do you recommend bi amp and will this do if so, if not what do you recommend.

Thanks

I just noticed that you're only trying to drive 2 speakers (I jumped the gun and assumed it was an entire HT since you mentioned the 5308 and 4311.) For $2,000, my advice then would be to go for either 2 Emotiva XPA-1s, a Parasound Halo A21 (a little bit over $2,000,) or an ATI 3002. Any of those will surely be sufficient to drive your speakers, and they all provide good value. Emotiva is also soon releasing their "reference" XPR-2 and XPR-1 amps, which should fall into this price range.

 

[TLS Guy]

Are you using this for bi amp since it has 5 channels? Do you recommend bi amp and will this do if so, if not what do you recommend.

Thanks

Passive biamping will not help you. This speaker has no business being designed with passive crossovers. It should have been designed with active crossovers and built in amplifiers.

As I have pointed out many times before, designing passive crossovers at 80 Hz, as in this speaker, is a dead end, and should not be done under any circumstances.

When you calculate the load the amp actually sees from the impedance curve and phase, it is 1.6 ohms at 20 Hz and 1.5 ohms at 70 Hz.

Worse, I would bet that those numbers are lower than the DC resistance of the drivers, which would indicate ringing at the 80 Hz crossover region.

In my experience this is pretty much the rule in this type of approach.

I expect these speakers have blown a lot of amps. I doubt the EMO is robust enough for this speaker.

If you want to keep these speakers, I would recommend Quad Current dumping amps. These are unconditionally stable under all loads. In my view they are the finest and best amps available for domestic audio systems.

The 909 can be had on eBay and Audiogon for under $1000.

Or you can buy its replacement, the Quad QSP for around $1800.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Those are not HDs, those are the original Focus like I had. One really excellent thing about them was that bipolar bass. It was always easier to get good bass response in any given room with them. The odd thing was, you would think they would reach down really far with those three 12" woofers, but the in reality by 25Hz they were all done. Their best bass performance was at about 32Hz.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Passive biamping will not help you. This speaker has no business being designed with passive crossovers. It should have been designed with active crossovers and built in amplifiers.

As I have pointed out many times before, designing passive crossovers at 80 Hz, as in this speaker, is a dead end, and should not be done under any circumstances.

When you calculate the load the amp actually sees from the impedance curve and phase, it is 1.6 ohms at 20 Hz and 1.5 ohms at 70 Hz.

Worse, I would bet that those numbers are lower than the DC resistance of the drivers, which would indicate ringing at the 80 Hz crossover region.

In my experience this is pretty much the rule in this type of approach.

I expect these speakers have blown a lot of amps. I doubt the EMO is robust enough for this speaker.

If you want to keep these speakers, I would recommend Quad Current dumping amps. These are unconditionally stable under all loads. In my view they are the finest and best amps available for domestic audio systems.

The 909 can be had on eBay and Audiogon for under $1000.

Or you can buy its replacement, the Quad QSP for around $1800.

Wow. This is quite an assertive post, TLS Guy.

First of all, this is the one speaker I have heard that demonstrated a distinct advantage, in terms of reduced listener fatigue, from using passive bi-amping. I don't have a technical explanation for this, because I didn't have the capability to run sophisticated tests of the amps with the speaker load in place. There might be amps that could power the Legacys just as well without passive bi-amping, but the Levinson 334 I was using (250w/ch into 4 ohms) sounded better when using four channels of amplification. The Levinson was also dramatically over-engineered in the output stage and the power supply, and Madrigal built those amps to be stable to 1 ohm, and they tested that way. I generally don't recommend passive bi-amping to anyone, but the original Focus is, perhaps, one of those special cases.

You've made your position clear regarding crossovers, that this speaker or that speaker shouldn't be designed with passive crossovers under 150Hz, and those speakers include my current Revel Salon 2, but the truth of the matter is that the Legacys sounded awfully good in their day, and still sound good to this day. The Salon 2s are, IMO, pretty close to the state of the art. Maybe you're technically correct about how dumb these crossovers are, but these are the products that are out there, they sound awfully damned good, and a lot of us are not going to DIY an active speaker system just to avoid some amp issues. If given the choice, I'd rather spend 2x on amps to avoid "doing it right" with a DIY active system. Or 4x for that matter.

Finally, don't you think those 140w/ch Quads are woefully under-powered for the Legacys in a huge room like the OP has?

To respond to the OP about bi-amping, IMHO, if they sound great to you without bi-amping, don't bi-amp. I'd recommend going for a really capable amp, like the AT3002, which will put out something like 600w/ch into 2 ohms, and see if magic happens. If not, you can always add two more channels to it (making it a 3004) later. It is possible that the only reason I needed to bi-amp with the Levinson 334s was that they really weren't up the task of driving the Legacys in a large room, power-wise. I'd also make sure you have a 20amp dedicated circuit for the 3002.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I wouldn't go with anything less powerful than the XPA-1. Two for less than 2K.

I agree, the XPA-1 also a reasonable suggestion. I like the ATI only because I know it will be dead quiet with a highly sensitive speaker like the Focus. I haven't heard that verified with an Emotiva.

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow. This is quite an assertive post, TLS Guy.

First of all, this is the one speaker I have heard that demonstrated a distinct advantage, in terms of reduced listener fatigue, from using passive bi-amping. I don't have a technical explanation for this, because I didn't have the capability to run sophisticated tests of the amps with the speaker load in place. There might be amps that could power the Legacys just as well without passive bi-amping, but the Levinson 334 I was using (250w/ch into 4 ohms) sounded better when using four channels of amplification. The Levinson was also dramatically over-engineered in the output stage and the power supply, and Madrigal built those amps to be stable to 1 ohm, and they tested that way. I generally don't recommend passive bi-amping to anyone, but the original Focus is, perhaps, one of those special cases.

You've made your position clear regarding crossovers, that this speaker or that speaker shouldn't be designed with passive crossovers under 150Hz, and those speakers include my current Revel Salon 2, but the truth of the matter is that the Legacys sounded awfully good in their day, and still sound good to this day. The Salon 2s are, IMO, pretty close to the state of the art. Maybe you're technically correct about how dumb these crossovers are, but these are the products that are out there, they sound awfully damned good, and a lot of us are not going to DIY an active speaker system just to avoid some amp issues. If given the choice, I'd rather spend 2x on amps to avoid "doing it right" with a DIY active system. Or 4x for that matter.

Finally, don't you think those 140w/ch Quads are woefully under-powered for the Legacys in a huge room like the OP has?

To respond to the OP about bi-amping, IMHO, if they sound great to you without bi-amping, don't bi-amp. I'd recommend going for a really capable amp, like the AT3002, which will put out something like 600w/ch into 2 ohms, and see if magic happens. If not, you can always add two more channels to it (making it a 3004) later. It is possible that the only reason I needed to bi-amp with the Levinson 334s was that they really weren't up the task of driving the Legacys in a large room, power-wise. I'd also make sure you have a 20amp dedicated circuit for the 3002.

The Quads will give at least 250 watts per channel into that load. I suggested the Quads as they are designed to work well into highly capacitative loads to get the best out of their electrostatic speakers. The speakers are quite sensitive, and the Quads are the amp likely to drive them with the least chance of blowing up.

As regards bi-amping passively with those speakers, you might be right.

I suspect the 80 Hz crossover is ringing badly and could well be upsetting the performance of even the best amps throughout the rest of the range.

That really is a terrible load to present to and amp even before we get tot the ringing issue, and I bet that 80 Hz crossover does.

You can't make a decent full range speaker, at least to my satisfaction, without using some active crossovers. That is why subs are powered and use active crossovers.

 

[PENG]

I agree, the XPA-1 also a reasonable suggestion. I like the ATI only because I know it will be dead quiet with a highly sensitive speaker like the Focus. I haven't heard that verified with an Emotiva.

I also agree with your suggestion except he wants to spend 2K, he did say give or take so may be the ATI is an option for him. By the way, I am not a believer in getting power I don't need, but for those speakers, more will definitely be better and 500W is not too much. The 20 circuit is a good advice, or at least a dedicated 15A circuit.