Need Advice on "Entry-to-Audiophile" Grade Floorstanders for 2-Channel System

[BoredSysAdmin]

Oh, I totally disagree with the statement regarding them not doing anything decent before the LSi/LSiM; the RTi line, especially in "flagship trim" of the previous RTi12's and current RTi A9's, are rock-solid speakers with amazing build quality and excellent sound. I do agree the LSi's are ridiculously expensive...and I don't really have any listening experience with the series below the RTi line such as the Monitors, R/T/M's and TSi's...

Lets agree to disagree, I heard entire Polk line in same time and setting and I plainly remember RTi to have compressed and bright highs and muffed lows..
LSi are the ones I liked, but everyone have their own tastes...
I saw deals on Polk selling Refub LSI speakers on ebay at about half price, which I still think is overpriced.

Are Ascends approaching the "audiophile" ring if even from a distance?

Ascends are not "approaching the audiophile ring", they more doing things right than some extremely expensive speakers and tiny portion of their price
Granted some 340s not going to win beauty contests, but if budget is right Sierra Towers with NrT twitter upgrade might be what you need

That said above mentioned deal from audiocircle will get your Audiophile grade speakers at "mass-market" prices .... if you like the look of classic series...

p.s: 363 are good entry level speakers, but I would not call them audiophile quality - See Gene's remarks in thread for review of 363s
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/80430-infinity-primus-p363-floorstanding-loudspeaker-review-3.html

At $400/pr and below, nothing is really in the same league as the P363s from my experience. I don't have a lot of experience with towers in the $750/pr range. I mostly recommend bookshelf speakers until you get to around $1500/pr.

However, I have spent a lot of time with a close audiophile friend comparing the P363s, Fluance XL7Fs and Emp E55Tis and the EMPs are superior in every category except bass extension. Though the P363's have an edge in bass extension, the bass they produce isn't nearly as tight or snappy as the EMP bass.

The Fluance win on bass but tend to have a bit too much upper bass for their own good. The P363s are more balanced in sound than the Fluance but they also don't seem to play as effortlessly at loud SPL. The EMP's play much more effortlessly than either speaker. They have a much larger soundstage and sound more tonally neutral. The EMP E55tis paired with two Rythmik or SVS subs is hard to beat for the money. And, they look great which makes the wifey happy too

The P363s won't play nearly as loud without compression as the EMP's but they do have more boom and sizzle which can be appealing to a more casual listener. You definitely hear a bit more detail from the P363s than either of the other speakers but they are also a bit too sibilant on female vocals for my tastes.

For around $1k/pr, I'd take a serious look at the Aperion Verus Forte or the RBH MC-6CT tower (excellent speaker). The Verus Grand tower is also great and I'd expect similar from its smaller more affordable Forte sibling.

If your in a small room, I still like the idea of a really high performance bookshelf (ie. Definitive Studio 65s) and two subs over towers. If you're in a large room and like high listening levels, then a tower is usually more appropriate in conjunction with a subwoofer or two of course.

Now if you're on a tight budget and getting the P363s for $200/pr, GET THEM and later down the road throw them in a spare room when you have more funds to upgrade. They are an unbeatable deal at that price!

I'm sure the mods would significantly help in the bass department. The entire bottom cavity of the stock version is hollow which is ridiculous. But, the real limitation of these speakers IMO is the tweeter. The midrange driver is great however and the bass drivers are acceptable.

 

[moves]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the PSB synchrony 1 was put in the entry level category...

 

[j_garcia]

In what way are the 363's a "step up from the Polks" -- and are you referring to my R20's that they would be a step up from?

And, we're definitely looking for floorstanding towers, not bookshelves on stands.

Yes, I was referring to the R20s. The P363s are easily an upgrade to them.

The Ascends attach to the lower stand effectively making them a tower, just not making use of the whole cabinet air space.

Oh, I totally disagree with the statement regarding them not doing anything decent before the LSi/LSiM; the RTi line, especially in "flagship trim" of the previous RTi12's and current RTi A9's, are rock-solid speakers with amazing build quality and excellent sound. I do agree the LSi's are ridiculously expensive...and I don't really have any listening experience with the series below the RTi line such as the Monitors, R/T/M's and TSi's...

I would tend to agree with that. The RTiA line is good for the price and I consider them a step up from the previous RTi line. I think the LSis are decent (but feel they are very overpriced for their performance); I have not heard the LSiMs.

Before I registered here, I read thread after thread about everyone's proverbial love for the Infinity P363's and even noticed recommendations for the Onkyo 8555 to be paired up with these towers...I don't really sense the same kind of feedback now -- are the Infinitys simply a good price, with no audiophile-style signature to them at all?

Are Ascends approaching the "audiophile" ring if even from a distance?

The Infinities are a very good budget speaker. Better IMO, than anything below the RTiA line, and probably close to the performance but not quite the build quality of those. Given the current ridiculous price they can be had for, they are sort of a steal and I think that is what people are getting at: you basically can't beat them for $200/pr. The cabinets are the weak point and are closer to the TSi line in that regard, but the sound quality is there.

The Ascends, and this is just my opinion, exceed the RTiA line easily. They are very neutral with a leaning toward bright, but so are nearly all of the Polks RTiA and below. Where they improve IMO, is on depth and clarity with a nice smooth midrange. For lack of a better term, they sound accurate, though at times they can sound a bit "clinical" in that they are so accurate sounding, they will sometimes reveal poor recordings a bit too much.

I haven't mentioned the 8555 at all, because I don't see it as a weak link in the chain. It should be able to handle pretty much everything mentioned in this thread IMHO.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

btw: Onkyo 8555 is pretty decent amp and could probably do decent job paired with these speakers:
XRT-6.2 X-Ref Towers (pair) | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monobloc
8555 is rated to work well over 100w at 4 ohm

 

[ahblaza]

Oh, I totally disagree with the statement regarding them not doing anything decent before the LSi/LSiM; the RTi line, especially in "flagship trim" of the previous RTi12's and current RTi A9's, are rock-solid speakers with amazing build quality and excellent sound. I do agree the LSi's are ridiculously expensive...and I don't really have any listening experience with the series below the RTi line such as the Monitors, R/T/M's and TSi's...



Before I registered here, I read thread after thread about everyone's proverbial love for the Infinity P363's and even noticed recommendations for the Onkyo 8555 to be paired up with these towers...I don't really sense the same kind of feedback now -- are the Infinitys simply a good price, with no audiophile-style signature to them at all?

Are Ascends approaching the "audiophile" ring if even from a distance?

I don't think anyone one is saying the P363's are bad, there is a review at AH. If they are what you want get them and make a decision to keep them or not. These are well regarded around here as well.
EMP Tek Tower Speakers
I agree with BSA and j_garcia with their Ascend reco, I have the 340SE's and they don't sound like bookshelves as you mentioned. Give these a look.

CMT-340 SE Mini-Tower Loudspeaker
Sierra Tower Bamboo Loudspeaker

 

[HorizonRidge]

Lets agree to disagree, I heard entire Polk line in same time and setting and I plainly remember RTi to have compressed and bright highs and muffed lows..
LSi are the ones I liked, but everyone have their own tastes...
I saw deals on Polk selling Refub LSI speakers on ebay at about half price, which I still think is overpriced.

I agree with you regarding the pricing structure on the LSi's; don't know what they were thinking -- but from what I have read and reports from co-workers and friends who returned from some home audio shows who demo'ed them in rooms (one friend in particular who actually visited Polk's Baltimore headquarters during the press event for the launch of the new LSiM's), these things out-perform their price point and approach a true audiophile footprint.

As for the RTi line, well, my personal experience with my own RTi12's in my HT setup dictates otherwise; they seem to have a perfectly balanced sonic fingerprint, but in all fairness, I never heard them in a serious two-channel-only situation for dedicated music listening...perhaps the characteristics you describe above rear their heads during sessions like that.

Ascends are not "approaching the audiophile ring", they more doing things right than some extremely expensive speakers and tiny portion of their price
Granted some 340s not going to win beauty contests, but if budget is right Sierra Towers with NrT twitter upgrade might be what you need

That said above mentioned deal from audiocircle will get your Audiophile grade speakers at "mass-market" prices .... if you like the look of classic series...

Hmmm...

p.s: 363 are good entry level speakers, but I would not call them audiophile quality - See Gene's remarks in thread for review of 363s
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/80430-infinity-primus-p363-floorstanding-loudspeaker-review-3.html

Fair enough; indeed, I stumbled upon Gene's review when I Googled these towers...

 

[HorizonRidge]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the PSB synchrony 1 was put in the entry level category...

LOL; those categories weren't really polished in terms of exact wording, 'moves...what I suppose I meany by putting the PSBs there was that they are sold by the likes of Crutchfield now, so they can be considered "mass market" in a way, if not, perhaps, "entry level"...

 

[moves]

They are no way close to entry level

 

[HorizonRidge]

Yes, I was referring to the R20s. The P363s are easily an upgrade to them.

Okay...

The Ascends attach to the lower stand effectively making them a tower, just not making use of the whole cabinet air space.

Something to take into consideration here, though; the speakers for this room and system can't be too massive or overwhelming because space is at a premium based on the installation -- the towers will be flanking a Bell'O audio tower which houses the gear in the two channel rig, and the positioning of the rack and speakers is in a corner.

I would tend to agree with that. The RTiA line is good for the price and I consider them a step up from the previous RTi line. I think the LSis are decent (but feel they are very overpriced for their performance); I have not heard the LSiMs.

Interesting; my findings are somewhat different in that I found no real "upgrade" with the RTiA's versus the previous RTi line save for cosmetic differences of the new rounded cabinets. I own the RTi12's and have compared them with RTiA9's and others, and to me, they sound the same in terms of signature and only differ in that aforementioned cabinet factor.

Further, I think the RTi's are far better than just calling them "good for the price," which I realize is a common way to describe them by the audiophile community. As the mid-pack family member in the company's lineup, the RTi's I believe can hang with some of the best of 'em even a bit beyond their price class.

The Infinities are a very good budget speaker. Better IMO, than anything below the RTiA line, and probably close to the performance but not quite the build quality of those. Given the current ridiculous price they can be had for, they are sort of a steal and I think that is what people are getting at: you basically can't beat them for $200/pr. The cabinets are the weak point and are closer to the TSi line in that regard, but the sound quality is there.

Good to know...thanks...

The Ascends, and this is just my opinion, exceed the RTiA line easily. They are very neutral with a leaning toward bright, but so are nearly all of the Polks RTiA and below. Where they improve IMO, is on depth and clarity with a nice smooth midrange. For lack of a better term, they sound accurate, though at times they can sound a bit "clinical" in that they are so accurate sounding, they will sometimes reveal poor recordings a bit too much.

I haven't mentioned the 8555 at all, because I don't see it as a weak link in the chain. It should be able to handle pretty much everything mentioned in this thread IMHO.

Thank you.

 

[HorizonRidge]

They are no way close to entry level

OK. Noted.

 

[HorizonRidge]

btw: Onkyo 8555 is pretty decent amp and could probably do decent job paired with these speakers:
XRT-6.2 X-Ref Towers (pair) | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monobloc
8555 is rated to work well over 100w at 4 ohm

Thanks; I didn't even know Emotiva made speakers!

How should these towers compare with the likes of the PSBs, Polks, Infinitys, JBLS, Klipschs, etc. of the world?

 

[HorizonRidge]

I don't think anyone one is saying the P363's are bad, there is a review at AH. If they are what you want get them and make a decision to keep them or not. These are well regarded around here as well.
EMP Tek Tower Speakers
I agree with BSA and j_garcia with their Ascend reco, I have the 340SE's and they don't sound like bookshelves as you mentioned. Give these a look.

CMT-340 SE Mini-Tower Loudspeaker
Sierra Tower Bamboo Loudspeaker

Thanks; are those Emptek towers from an internet direct brand?

 

[zieglj01]

And, we're definitely looking for floorstanding towers, not bookshelves on stands.

If your budget is under $1500, and you want a speaker that is really nice
sounding and is built good >> then look at the Monitor Audio Silver RX6
speakers. They are really good for music, and are good for home theater.
They are Not entry level speakers, and are one of my favorite brands.
They are under $1300 a pair - and come in Rosenut, Walnut or Black.
RX6 | Silver RX | Monitor Audio

 

[HorizonRidge]

If your budget is under $1500, and you want a speaker that is really nice
sounding and is built good >> then look at the Monitor Audio Silver RX6
speakers. They are really good for music, and are good for home theater.
They are Not entry level speakers, and are one of my favorite brands.
They are under $1300 a pair - and come in Rosenut, Walnut or Black.
RX6 | Silver RX | Monitor Audio

Thank you very much for your heartfelt input here, zieg; indeed, the budget is under $1500, and we're kind of looking for the "entry-to-audiophile" pool to get comfortable with, to kind of move beyond the garden variety Polk/Klipsch/Infinity/JBL etc. models out there...at least if only just for our two-channel setup for now. I do believe I actually had the Monitors on my "gateway to audiophile" list in the original post...

Are the Monitors definitely good for JUST a music setup?

 

[j_garcia]

Interesting; my findings are somewhat different in that I found no real "upgrade" with the RTiA's versus the previous RTi line save for cosmetic differences of the new rounded cabinets. I own the RTi12's and have compared them with RTiA9's and others, and to me, they sound the same in terms of signature and only differ in that aforementioned cabinet factor.

I am not sure what they changed, but I spent quite a bit of time with one of the small RTiA line and found it to be smoother and a bit dialed back from the RTi line, which I always felt were bright. I did not compare the big dudes.

Further, I think the RTi's are far better than just calling them "good for the price," which I realize is a common way to describe them by the audiophile community. As the mid-pack family member in the company's lineup, the RTi's I believe can hang with some of the best of 'em even a bit beyond their price class.

To me, Polk has sort of the same problem in all of their speakers: midrange clarity. That was my nitpick with the LSis also. Either the drivers can't do it, or their crossovers don't cut it, or a combination of those, but they just don't quite have it down (which is odd, because their older speakers were excellent in this regard, SDAs, some others from the '90s) When I heard the RTiAs, that was the first real improvement I noticed.

 

[HorizonRidge]

Interesting observations, JGarcia.

 

[zieglj01]

the budget is under $1500, and we're kind of looking for the "entry-to-audiophile" pool to get comfortable with, to kind of move beyond the garden variety Polk/Klipsch/Infinity/JBL etc. models out there...at least if only just for our two-channel setup for now.

Are the Monitors definitely good for JUST a music setup?

Yes, they are real good for music only.

 

[HorizonRidge]

Yes, they are real good for music only.

Thank you, zieg; I am going to revise that original list to reflect changes in terms of classifications and now the model you suggested from Monitor...

 

[HorizonRidge]

UPDATED FLOORSTANDING SPEAKER CLASSIFICATIONS AND LISTS:

SOMEWHAT "MASS MARKET" AND "MORE AFFORDABLE" FLOORSTANDER OPTIONS:

Infinity Primus 253 (I think I can actually do better than these, though...)
Polk TSi300
Infinity Primus P363
Cambridge Audio S70
Polk TSi400
Boston Acoustics A 250
Klipsch Reference RF-42 II
Polk RTi A5
Polk TSi500
Klipsch Reference RF-52 II
Definitive Technology BP6B
Boston Acoustics A 360
Klipsch RF-62 II
Polk RTi A7 (these may be getting too large for our space)
Klipsch Reference RF-82 II

IT'S PROBABLY AROUND THIS POINT WE START GETTING INTO THE MORE "STEP UP/APPROACHING AUDIOPHILE" BRANDS AND MODELS:

NHT Classic Absolute Tower
PSB Image T5
Definitive Technology BP-8020ST
Definitive Technology BP10B
JBL Studio 570
PSB Image T6
Polk RTi A9 (too large for our space if based on the RTi12, which is essentially the same speaker, and which we have in our HT room...)
Boston Acoustics RS 334
PSB Alpha T1
Definitive Technology BP-8040ST
JBL Studio 580
Definitive Technology BP-8060ST
JBL Studio 590
PSB Imagine T
PSB Synchrony Two
Definitive Technology BP-8080ST
Definitive Technology Mythos STS SuperTower
Polk LSi Series (probably way out of our budget at this point, and with a too-low impedance to drive...)
Klipsch Reference RF-7 II
PSB Imagine T2 Tower

Yeah...at this point the more "mass market" brands like above get way out of our budget beyond these models mentioned...

STEP UP "ENTRY-TO-AUDIOPHILE" FLOORSTANDER OPTIONS:


THIEL SCS4T (out of budget, but just throwing it out there...)
PSB Synchrony One
Paradigm Monitor 7
Energy Veritas 6.2
Aperion Intimus 5T
Wharfdale Evo or Diamond
Monitor Audio BX5 & Silver RX6
Dali Zensor 5
KEF Q Series
Canton GLE Series
T&A
B&W 684
Martin Logan
Focal 714V
Ascend Acoustics

 

[j_garcia]

I emailed Danny about the Carnegie CSB1 and Davanti. Here's what he had to say about them :

Both are really, REALLY nice.

IMO, the Paradigm Monitor 7s don't fit that last list. The Studio 60s would be more in-line with the rest. There are a few others there that are maybe quite a bit better than the others listed, like the Theil

What else have you listened to outside of the Polks and did we get a rough budget?