Timbre matching and Audessy

[greatdavide]

Assuming that I am buying quality (Aperion Verus or better) speakers how important is timbre matching Fronts to center?

If I'm buying used it's easy to buy quality at a good price but hard to find people selling their whole system.

Will Audessy or some other room correction also smooth out the sound between the speakers?

as a side note I also wonder about the surrounds but am not as concerned as I am with the mains.

Can the higher ups bless us Newbs with an article in the university on timbre and matching speakers?

 

[zieglj01]

From Bluray Forum
Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - Timbre Matching?

 

[greatdavide]

Are better speakers more "neutral"

Thanks for the link, I'd read something similar but I'm asking a slightly different question. Looking back I worded poorly and didn't ask everything I was thinking.

Don't better speakers introduce less of their own timbre?

I thought part of the higher end speakers quality is the accuracy with which they reproduce the signal. It seems like any timbre introduced by the speaker that didn't originally exist in the signal would be another form of distortion. Thus with higher end speakers isn't this more of a minor concern than with a cheap set?

And if that is true should I focus more on timbre matching or on getting more speaker for my buck.

I understand that all other things being equal timbre matching is important. It just seems that in the used market if you mix a little you get much better speakers for you dollar.

Also I have another question. If the mfg is using different enclosures how do they timbre match? Is this more a product of the type of driver and cone?

 

[j_garcia]

Thanks for the link, I'd read something similar but I'm asking a slightly different question. Looking back I worded poorly and didn't ask everything I was thinking.

Don't better speakers introduce less of their own timbre?

I thought part of the higher end speakers quality is the accuracy with which they reproduce the signal. It seems like any timbre introduced by the speaker that didn't originally exist in the signal would be another form of distortion. Thus with higher end speakers isn't this more of a minor concern than with a cheap set?

And if that is true should I focus more on timbre matching or on getting more speaker for my buck.

I understand that all other things being equal timbre matching is important. It just seems that in the used market if you mix a little you get much better speakers for you dollar.

Also I have another question. If the mfg is using different enclosures how do they timbre match? Is this more a product of the type of driver and cone?

Every speaker has its own timbre, so to get the best results, you want timbre matched speakers. Accuracy or flatness of performance does not tell you how the speaker itself actually sounds. You can have two ruler flat speakers with different types of drivers that will sound very different, and price has no bearing on that. Timbre is based mainly on the drivers in question and quite a bit on the x-over design. The cabinets obviously do have an effect, but a far smaller one.

 

[markw]

"Accuracy" in a speaker is like beauty in a woman.

Every one has their own idea of what it is, and it comes in many different varieties, each appealing to a different taste.

Have you ever heard two speakers from two different manufacturers that sounded the same?

 

[greatdavide]

Every one has their own idea of what it is, and it comes in many different varieties, each appealing to a different taste.

Have you ever heard two speakers from two different manufacturers that sounded the same?

Well only if you count the best buy showroom. The local hifi guys don't carry a huge selection and since I'm budgeting for used speakers I not going to have them rewire their showroom for me to listen.
Never higher quality speakers on the same amp in a controlled room to compare if I can hear a difference between a timbre matched center and one from a different company.... Probably a short list of people who have.
I can never be sure if what I was hearing going from speaker to speaker was my imagination, position in the room, source,etc. I don't want to buy and regret.

 

[markw]

I was merely offering a real-world decription of accuracy

From your statement correcting us earlier, even after zeig's extremely helpful link was posted, I was led to believe that you actually has more experience in this matter than us here.

Even after all this, it seems that the definition of timbre still eludes you.

I thought part of the higher end speakers quality is the accuracy with which they reproduce the signal. It seems like any timbre introduced by the speaker that didn't originally exist in the signal would be another form of distortion. Thus with higher end speakers isn't this more of a minor concern than with a cheap set?

 

[greatdavide]

I'm eluded quite often

From your statement correcting us earlier, even after zeig's extremely helpful link was posted, I was led to believe that you actually has more experience in this matter than us here.

Even after all this, it seems that the definition of timbre still eludes you.

Nope didn't mean to give the impression that I wasn't new at all, I'm new to decent equipment( see the bottom of the first post) and i could very well be misunderstanding what timbre is and I appreciated Ziegs link. I know it matters, I'm just trying to get a sense of how much this matters so I can get an idea of where to make compromises. If timbre matching is the very top thing I should keep in mind when looking at speakers that's all good.

Mark, if the last post sounded rude or ungrateful I apologize, it wasn't my intent.


I've only been able to listen to matched 5.1 systems at the local showrooms and not mixed so I'm unfamiliar with how different speakers sound when they aren't timbre matched. I was under the impression that the better the speaker the closer they got to some measured reference (like the way the image of a good tv is calibrated and measured with ISF). I was also thinking THX and Audessy were the calibration methods and used some built in reference (ziegs article said that timbre is also known as tone color or quality). If this had been true it would make sense to buy the most speaker I could for my buck even if they weren't perfectly timbre matched since the difference would have been small and I could have calibrated it out. But it appears speakers have a lot more variance and you can't mix them as easily as I first thought. Good to know!

I really would love to see an audioholics article explaining timbre compared to distortion for us newbs.

 

[markw]

Unlike electronics, there is no "measured reference" for loudspeakers. Listen to a Magnapan and then a Klipsch. Both good brands, but totally different sound. The same can be said of any two brands.

Each speaker designer has their own idea on what a speaker should sound like and designs them towards that goal. That's why there are so many speakers. If they all sounded the same, there would not be that many different brands

Add to that the room placement/interaction you've got a whole new variable can o' worms to add to that subjective design goal.

As for what it does, imagine someone walking out of the left channel and, while talking, slowly traversing the room to the right speaker, talking all the while. If the speakers are properly timbre matched, the voice will sound the same all the way across that plane. If the center is not matched, you'll notice that the voice changes in the middle.

Now, some people are fine with that. If you think you're one of them, then fine, get whatever one "reads" best to you but, on the whole, most of us tend to prefer a matched center so the sound field is consistent across the front plane.

It's your call. There is no right or wrong in your own system.

 

[j_garcia]

Timbre matching would be more important than trying to get the "best center" and "best mains" in your budget, at least for the front 3, so ideally what you shop for are speakers that give you a good compromise between the speakers you consider most important. You could mismatch the surrounds and very easily get away with it, but the front 3 will be fairly obvious when they don't match as it won't give you that seamless blend between them. Audessy cannot correct this.

I shopped by finding the mains I wanted first, since music is more important to me. Then added the rest of the speakers that matched, which in my case, ended up being 5 of the same speaker

 

[lsiberian]

I hold this mantra to the extreme that the front 3 speakers should ideally be the exact same speakers. Doing this requires either wall mounting the tv or using projection. Sacrifices I'm willing to make for optimal sound.

That said I must point out that TLS Guy has pointed out that speakers of sufficiently hi-fidelity don't have timber matching problems in a DIY center channel thread one of our members made when he was building a special center to go with his L-R Speakers.

You don't always have to match the Center with the L-R channel brand wise to get excellent results. If you are buying new speakers buy the matching center, but on the used market experimenting isn't always a bad thing.

 

[Nemo128]

Each speaker designer has their own idea on what a speaker should sound like and designs them towards that goal. That's why there are so many speakers. If they all sounded the same, there would not be that many different brands.

Hell yeah. Search around in these forums enough and you will find people who like the sound a particular brand makes, and they'd be right!

There are people who prefer the Klipsch sound, and those who do know what that means. I prefer the Def Tech sound over many other brands, but I also don't like Def Tech subs. Subs though, in my opinion, are more objective in selecting than other speakers. I like the sound that Aperions make (the ones I've heard) I don't like the sound that Polks or JBLs make for a couple examples. And I hate the sound that Bose makes, muahahahaha had to throw that in there.

It's really all about what sounds right to you, and you may even figure out that your fronts NOT being timbre matched is what does it for you acoustically! I found out the hard way it didn't do it for me.

 

[greatdavide]

Aperions

Yeah I like Aperions, There are a newish pair of used Verus grand towers at the local audio store that I am totally eyeing and started this whole thought as I can't afford a new center. The towers are $800 for the pair and still under warranty. I have an old lower end Aperion setup now and my center is the old Aperion 5c which has different drivers, crossovers and cones. Also I would give up my Aperion sub in a heartbeat... Great speakers, mediocre sub.

 

[j_garcia]

Hell yeah. Search around in these forums enough and you will find people who like the sound a particular brand makes, and they'd be right!

There are people who prefer the Klipsch sound, and those who do know what that means. I prefer the Def Tech sound over many other brands, but I also don't like Def Tech subs. Subs though, in my opinion, are more objective in selecting than other speakers. I like the sound that Aperions make (the ones I've heard) I don't like the sound that Polks or JBLs make for a couple examples. And I hate the sound that Bose makes, muahahahaha had to throw that in there.

It's really all about what sounds right to you, and you may even figure out that your fronts NOT being timbre matched is what does it for you acoustically! I found out the hard way it didn't do it for me.

While timbre matching is ideal, I agree with both lsiberian and Nemo128 that you don't HAVE to to it. I've heard systems where there is no center to match a given speaker so the user found one that was similar in timbre and it works fine. That may be more luck than anything, but it can be done. I've done it also, though I mixed speakers from different lines from one manufacturer. To me it just makes it a little easier to do by going with one "family" or line of speakers that were intended to go together for the front 3, so the key is to find the front 3 that work for you. If they don't match but it works for you, problem solved

 

[zieglj01]

There is no timbre matching police force coming to get you.
Everyone has their own land of paradise - I will say that the biggest difference
is in music. However, I am a nit-picker and I pick up differences in voices and
movie sound tracks. I have owned a whole lot of speakers, and I will say this,
that Polk will not match Klipsch, Infinity will not match Signet, Atlantic Tech
will not match Definitive Tech, Monitor Audio will not match KEF, Snell will not
match NHT, Boston will not match Focal, Onix ELT will not match Cambridge >
and so on. I have come close - however, no ringers as in horseshoes.

Have fun, and do what is best for you!

 

[FirstReflection]

Anecdotally, I think the easiest way to understand timbre is to think of any given musical instrument, and then think of how different brands, makes and models of that musical instrument could all play the exact same note, but not sound exactly the same! The most obvious would probably be guitars, but even think of pianos or violins or trumpets or what-have-you. Why will top level violinists pay literally millions of dollars for a Stradivarius vs. only hundreds or thousands of dollars for other violins? Is a 'G' on a Strad a different note than on any other violin? Is it a more "accurate" 'G' on the Strad? Well no. It's the same note. And you'll identify it as coming from a violin and not from a trumpet whether it's a $15 million Stradivarius or an $80 fiddle made in China. But they do not sound identical. And no amount of computer-applied EQ will make the $80 unit sound like a Stradivarius. That's timbre in a nut shell

So, it's important to realize that no speaker is "perfect". No speaker has literally flat frequency response. There are always variations of at least a few dB throughout the audible spectrum. And Audyssey won't correct for those. Audyssey is looking for bigger changes than just 1 or 2 dB.

And no speaker is completely devoid of all harmonics. Harmonics are what tell us that a note is coming from a violin and not a trumpet. A frequency devoid of any harmonics is just a sine wave test tone. There is an utterly amazing amount of audio information in the harmonics. It is how we distinguish and recognize every instrument and every voice!

So every speaker will have harmonics of its own. Sounds that are produced by the materials of the speaker itself, and not just an accurate reproduction of what is in the recording. These inherent material harmonics are the reason why one of the keys to timbre matching speakers is to use the exact same drivers and cabinet materials in every speaker. Failure to do that means different inherent harmonics. So it might sound like three pianos all playing up at the front of the room. You've got identical Yamaha pianos on the left and right, but in the middle, you've got a Steinway. They're all pianos. They could all be the same size and be playing the exact same notes. But the Steinway won't sound exactly the same as the twin Yamaha pianos. The reason? Slightly different harmonics. And they could all be very good, very well tuned pianos! One person might prefer the sound of the Yamaha, while someone else prefers the Steinway. Is either person "wrong" or "right" for that preference? Nope. And is one brand more accurate than the other? Not if they're all in tune. And yet they still do not match in timbre, and we can pick that out!

So that is why timbre matching the front 3 speakers is so important. No one is going to take two Yamaha pianos and a Steinway in the middle and say you bought crappy pianos! And they can all three be tuned to perfection and be very accurate. But they won't match in timbre. And with the front three speakers in a home theater setup, we want them to match perfectly across the front

 

[lsiberian]

So, it's important to realize that no speaker is "perfect". No speaker has literally flat frequency response. There are always variations of at least a few dB throughout the audible spectrum. And Audyssey won't correct for those.

Audyssey actually does a good job of correcting for speaker issues. Obviously there are some things it won't correct, but speakers can be brought very close to flat, clean response with the proper drivers, cabinets, and crossovers. The proper cabinet is nearly impossible to build for every speaker problem so we are forced to compromise.

 

[TLS Guy]

As I have said often on these forums, timbre matching should be called what it really is: - error matching. A perfect speaker would not have timbre. A musical instrument must have a speaker should not.

Very good speakers exhibit very little timbre and good high performance speakers from the few best manufacturers do sound very similar indeed.

Unfortunately all this comes about because of common loudspeaker ills.

Especially retained energy and high Q resonances.

Distortion, especially of the non linear variety.

Hysteresis distortion.

Frequency response aberrations, which in loudspeakers are almost always polar dependent, which severely limits the ability of programs that provide frequency response correction to be effective.

As the state of the art improves it is becoming clear, that phase and time aberrations are deleterious, you just have to minimize the other ills for this to become apparent. I have long maintained that phase and time relationships in multi driver systems are important.

Last but not least thermal compression which is present to high degree in all budget and medium priced systems unless they are highly sensitive and efficient, which imparts a dullness to the sound. This may account for the fact that Klipsch have a following. They are so sensitive, that this problem will be much less than for most other speakers at equivalent price.

The bottom line is that in two excellent designs, using different drivers they will timbre match. So yes, you can use for instance left right speakers with rigid cones and a center with a highly damped soft cone. Done right both will get you pretty much to the same place, so that the sound stage is seamless.

Unfortunately high price does not guarantee success as even in the upper price offerings there are still far more bad speakers than good ones.

Engineering an accurate high performance loudspeaker is a formidable challenge and not to be undertaken by the faint of heart.

 

[niles300z]

timbre

Timbre matching would be more important than trying to get the "best center" and "best mains" in your budget, at least for the front 3, so ideally what you shop for are speakers that give you a good compromise between the speakers you consider most important. You could mismatch the surrounds and very easily get away with it, but the front 3 will be fairly obvious when they don't match as it won't give you that seamless blend between them. Audessy cannot correct this.

I shopped by finding the mains I wanted first, since music is more important to me. Then added the rest of the speakers that matched, which in my case, ended up being 5 of the same speaker

Forgive me if I mention anything that may have been covered but one trick I have found that may help timbre matching is the pink noise generator built into many recent ht receivers. In the menu options there is usually a channel level adjustment that outputs a particular test tone to help account for inequalities in efficiency and room acoustics. This tone when played across my three fronts showed me there is a definite tonal difference between a mirage avs -100 I just got compared with my mission 70 mkll which had previously been paired with a def tech jr center which looks to have been using the same vifa d-19 tweeter and seemed to be a better match. Many manufacturers used similar dome tweeters which may be a step in the right direction when matching.