Do Amps really have signatures?

[M Code]

out of curiosity, do the lower end amps from manufacturers of the likes Denon, Onkyo, Yam, Marantz, NAD...use *compromised components*? Or is the difference just the power section? (The other features Is not really relevant for this post. Amplification, low noise, frequency response (phase response?) is what I am looking at)

Amplifer sections within an AVR are a compromise @ best, especially the lower priced ones < $1000 (SRP)...
Everything is packed into one chassis, and driven by intense price competition...
A quality, branded multi-channel component amplifier will annihiliate the majority of amplifiers sections within an AVR..

Comparing such higher and lower end amps/models from "well respected" manufacturers, and driving a speaker which both can drive efficiently, now are there any instances where there are differences?

If the loudspeaker is a quality, high resolution full-range system then the audible differences would be minimal @ lower SPL levels..
However as the loudspeaker system is pushed harder using a high-dynamic range source then the lower end amplifier can/will start to misbehave delivering audible, negative byproducts....

Just my $0.02..

 

[Irvrobinson]

If the loudspeaker is a quality, high resolution full-range system then the audible differences would be minimal @ lower SPL levels..
However as the loudspeaker system is pushed harder using a high-dynamic range source then the lower end amplifier can/will start to misbehave delivering audible, negative byproducts....

Just my $0.02..

Well, the guy claiming there aren't any audible differences has several sets of high resolution speakers and several different amplifiers...

 

[jinjuku]

Not necessarily...
Pro audio amplifiers are built 1st for reliability..
2nd for sonic performance.
If a Pro audio amp goes down during a set, it can ruin the performance.
One of the best Pro audio amps ever built was the Crown DC300, extremely reliable almost bulletproof..
However its amplifier topology was quasi-complementary rather then full complimentary, its IM distortion was higher and in home applications sounded harsh..



Just my $0.02..

Where in do people come up with this stuff? I owned the DC300A, DC 150A, IC150A. Wasn't the DC300 introduced in 1968? Give it a break. The SS audiophile stuff back then wasn't any better.

Grab a Macrotech or iTechHD and tell me how it's sonics are 2nd chair. Crown certainly doesn't bill it that way:

The Crown® Macro-Tech® i Series continues the Macro-Tech legacy of unparalleled sonic accuracy and detail, putting sound quality above all else

This is their VERY first bullet point. When you have been producing amps as long as Crown has, for the market they have, reliability doesn't take 2nd seat to SQ.

Unlike the Audiophile boutique brands Crown has the chops to do both. Not just one.

 

[KEW]

I have to say that I have a hard time understanding what design conflicts would exist between a robust, over-built, highly reliable amp ... and one with good sound quality. Just sayin'.

 

[M Code]

Where in do people come up with this stuff? I owned the DC300A, DC 150A, IC150A. Wasn't the DC300 introduced in 1968? Give it a break. The SS audiophile stuff back then wasn't any better.

Grab a Macrotech or iTechHD and tell me how it's sonics are 2nd chair. Crown certainly doesn't bill it that way:

The Crown® Macro-Tech® i Series continues the Macro-Tech legacy of unparalleled sonic accuracy and detail, putting sound quality above all else

This is their VERY first bullet point. When you have been producing amps as long as Crown has, for the market they have, reliability doesn't take 2nd seat to SQ.

Unlike the Audiophile boutique brands Crown has the chops to do both. Not just one.

Since we have done multiple product development projects with Crown over the last 15 years, we know just a little about their products...
The Crown amplifiers over the last 20 years have been one of the strongest brands in Pro Audio.
Thats precisely one of the reasons Harman bought them..

In fact we have actually setup and run various competitive amplifier comparisons @ Harman with some of the higher Crown/Harman executives in the audience listening panels....

Their latest products such as the iTech products using their IP & new processor developed by TI are sonically excellent..
And now can be used in a home theater system, however before the smaller form factor digital amplifiers were available we would never recommend using some of the larger chassis pro audio amplifiers for home theater unless they were mounted in a remote closet or rack far away from the listening stage. Their fan noise alone raises the noise floor several dB..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Irvrobinson]

Since we have done multiple product development projects with Crown over the last 15 years, we know just a little about their products...

Interesting. Who is "we"? Your profile lists you as a classic muscle car restorer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I KNEW IT!

Shhhhhhhhhhh. Don't tell anyone. I just love these speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I bet if Crown puts their amp inside a Lexicon (like that 8ch class-d amp) chassis, no one would question quality.

 

[slipperybidness]

Shhhhhhhhhhh. Don't tell anyone. I just love these speakers.

My brother bought an old hearse and is wanting to restore it, put in flat panel TV and make it slick. I gotta show him these speakers, probably out of his price range, but give him some good ideas.

 

[KEW]

Shhhhhhhhhhh. Don't tell anyone. I just love these speakers.

Get one with handles so the pallbearers won't drop it!

 

[Alex2507]

Well, the guy claiming there aren't any audible differences has several sets of high resolution speakers and several different amplifiers...

That stuff is so high end that 'within their design parameters' on all of them refers to the other side of ear bleed levels. It's the entry and mid level stuff that I expect to be able to hear differences with as their design parameters are exceeded in playback on this side of ear bleed levels.

 

[3db]

That stuff is so high end that 'within their design parameters' on all of them refers to the other side of ear bleed levels. It's the entry and mid level stuff that I expect to be able to hear differences with as their design parameters are exceeded in playback on this side of ear bleed levels.

My Yammy gave me an autograph yesterday..eligible of course. I'm keeping the signature just in case it gets famous or something.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My brother bought an old hearse and is wanting to restore it, put in flat panel TV and make it slick. I gotta show him these speakers, probably out of his price range, but give him some good ideas.

Your brother is very sick.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Their fan noise alone raises the noise floor several dB..

I can see fan noise as an issue. But the new Harman Crowns like XLS are silent from 1 ft out. Not an issue. With SNR better than -100dB, the noise floor is not an issue either.

But if you don't like pro amps or any other amp, that's okay. Nothing wrong with that.

I think we could debate forever on this topic.

Some believe and some don't believe. Nothing will ever change.

It does appear to me that Audioholics have more members who don't believe the amp hype or any other hype than any other forums. That's why I prefer AH to most forums.

 

[jinjuku]

Since we have done multiple product development projects with Crown over the last 15 years, we know just a little about their products...

Welcome to the Club. My 1st intro to the pro-audio world was slinging Amiga's in audio and video edit suites in 90. Crown, QSC, AMX, Crestron, Panasonic D1, X-Overs, TBC's.

All I know is for 3 years I offered anyone that wanted a free Parasound amp to come over and blind, stone cold, pick it out 9/10 coin flips from a fan modded Crown XLS 402 and not a single taker.

Agreed about moving amps with fan noise to a rack. Did that in countless installs both studio, live venue, home. It doesn't mean because they have a fan that their SQ is compromised. Just means you don't need amps in your room to enjoy your speakers.

 

[Gordonj]

Well i know i will get carpet bomb'd on this but there are sound differences between amps. And yes i have heard them, i have even been in A/B tests. And i have even had long conversations with amp designer buddies over the sonic differences between amp manufactures and they agree you can hear differences.

So I land on the side of, if it sounds good and you like it go for it! and pass another Corona and lime while we kick back and enjoy the show....

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well i know i will get carpet bomb'd on this but there are sound differences between amps. And yes i have heard them, i have even been in A/B tests. And i have even had long conversations with amp designer buddies over the sonic differences between amp manufactures and they agree you can hear differences.

So I land on the side of, if it sounds good and you like it go for it! and pass another Corona and lime while we kick back and enjoy the show....

Gordon

I'm not biting.

I'm too cool to care.

But if everyone says that amps sound the same or similar, the amp industry would crumble and your friend would be out of a job....and so would a lot of people in the audio industry.

We don't want that, do we?

 

[jinjuku]

I have an expectation bias that with the way people talk about amps that there is going to be a night and day difference like you hear with speakers.

To me the difference doesn't cover the cost gap. Especially in light of much better speakers available at often the cost in difference. Never mind 99% of people don't have $10-$15K to spend on amps.

 

[Gordonj]

I'm not biting.

I'm too cool to care.

But if everyone says that amps sound the same or similar, the amp industry would crumble and your friend would be out of a job....and so would a lot of people in the audio industry.

We don't want that, do we?

No we want everyone employed!

But they are multiple friends from multiple manufactures that i have known for long times. And, well, i have heard the differences. But its ok. We all just have to agree to disagree on this one and enjoy. No matter what I say will convince you (or others) that there is a sonic difference and no matter what you say (or others) will change my feeling. But truly, it is all good!

And while you really do care, your still cool

Gordon

 

[Gordonj]

I have an expectation bias that with the way people talk about amps that there is going to be a night and day difference like you hear with speakers.

To me the difference doesn't cover the cost gap. Especially in light of much better speakers available at often the cost in difference. Never mind 99% of people don't have $10-$15K to spend on amps.

You are absolutely right!! The differences are very small and subtle. And you are 100% right! The big differences will be in the speakers not in the amps (for the most part). And that is all with in reason.

Gordon