Fullest Sonic Potential

[Adam]

No question about it, the Mr. T amps.

I pity the fool that doesn't buy my amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

good idea. place each other on 'ignore' (it's a forum function, you'll love it)

Yeah, you're right that is a great feature. I just added 2 persons on this thread I couldn't care less about reading. I love it. It's like they don't even exist in my world.

If Hocky and Markw have not put me on their ignore list, they should do it now. That is a great feature.

 

[markw]

It's really funny how some people don't know when they're being made a fool of, particularly when they do it to themselves.

 

[slipperybidness]

You're kidding, right?

When it's not making any volume at all, it's not producing any watts. Its got the potential to produce 300 watts given a large enough input signal.

Of course, if you attenuate the input signal to zero on the power amp, none of that input, no matter how strong is is, will make it to the amp. You're not really saying that, are you? Nobody here would be that stupid, I hope.

I think I must agree. No need to insult anyone, I think there must have been some confusion along the way.

 

[markw]

I think I must agree. No need to insult anyone, I think there must have been some confusion along the way.

No confusion on my part.

 

[PENG]

In reading preamp output specs we need to be careful. Some provide just the rated output figures, e.g. Yamaha AVRs (1V), Denon/Marantz (1.2V), Onkyo TX-NR5010, rated/max (1.0/5.5V), Prepro such as Marantz AV8003(1.0 V), AV7005 (1.2V), others provide rated and maximum output, e.g. Adcom (1.2V/9 to >10V RMS), yet others provide only maximum output, e.g. Parasound Halo, 8V, Bryston BP26, 16V and then ATI preamp's manual would just say output level 3.5V RMS period. They also don't tell you much about their gain, some don't mention it at all. I guess you can do the math yourself from their input sensivities and other data provided, but you would have to make some assumptions in trying to interpret those data.

So my suggestion is, let's not jump to conclusion about one is better than the other without doing a more in depth comparison using all available data. That is not to say I cannot jump to conclusion in extreme cases, such as saying the Bryston BP26 offers a higher output than my Marantz AV7005. I am also guessing, Denon/Marantz probably can do rated output of 1.2V, maximum output of 5 to 6V, before clipping, based others (such as Onkyo, Adcom) that specified both. Again, I would be guessing as I am not sure how they define "rated" and "maximum", and I shouldn't guess so forget it.

 

[ACsGreens]

Jeez Hocky, sounds like the amps aren't the only thing that are a little "sensitive."

I love the Mr. T reference, kudos.

 

[Trev]

 

[Irvrobinson]

Unfortunately, that's a Marshall guitar amp. I wouldn't recommend it for an audio system.

 

[Bghead8che]

Mr. T amps?

I've never heard that expression.

Regarding gains/ level attenuating knobs, I think most of us equate the increased in gain to increased noise floor (hiss sound).

The fact that ATI amps can have a gain of 34dB and still have a SNR of -123dB and crosstalk of -100dB from 20Hz-20kHz is pretty good.

Since louder is "better" and "punchier" to some people who don't level match, and assuming the SNR & crosstalk can be great like -123dB 20Hz-20kHz & -100dB 20Hz-20kHz, respectively, why wouldn't all amps have a gain of 34dB or 36dB?

I'm curious. Is there a SINGLE 3rd party test that proves ATI has a SNR over 120 and channel seperation of 100 db plus? I don't doubt their claims I'd just like some proof.



-Brian

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm curious. Is there a SINGLE 3rd party test that proves ATI has a SNR over 120 and channel seperation of 100 db plus? I don't doubt their claims I'd just like some proof.

-Brian

Every place will have a different number. HTM, AH, Soundstage, Stereophile, S&V, and every manufacturer.

We can only guess.

For example, HTM has just about every AVR's SNR above -100dBA @ 1w. Yet, the best SNR I've seen on Stereophile is probably the Mark Levinson No.532 300wpc x 2ch amp @ -105.4dBA.

There's no secret that Harman International is in bed with ATI - Mark Levinson, Lexicon, & JBL. I believe the Mark Levinson 532 amp is an "enhanced" $8K version of the $2.5K AT3002 amp. Just like the $7K Lexicon amp is an enhanced version of the $5K AT3007 amp.

If my assumption isn't too far out, the AT3002 amp's SNR will also measure close to ML-532 @ -105dBA on Stereophile, but probably -135dBA on HTM, and something entirely different on AH, Soundstage, S&V, etc. Just my assumption which could be totally wrong.

 

[frostbyte]

I wouldn't praise those companies, either. Well, certainly not Emotiva, anyway. lol. But if the discussion comes up and my opinion is relevant, I will post what I think about my own hardware. I think it is a bit more appropriate than trolling around regurgitating the same things over and over about what I own.

edit: And for the record, I don't intentionally stalk your posts - you just post a lot and it is fairly frequent that they make me face palm.

AcuDefTechGuy started his own thread. He didn't take over someone elses thread and put an opinion where it wasn't asked for. Many of us value his comments. Many of us don't have the funds to buy just about anything to try it out and compare. His thoughts often come from a lot of personal investment in time and resources to have one person with knowledge of many products. IMO, someone that praises high end speakers and relatively low end electronics is someone that really just uses his ears and happens to have the same basic philosophies as I do here. A well built relatively inexpensive amp will sound the same as an ultra high end amp. I've done testing of products up to $20k per channel of amplification and settled on about 10 times cheaper for the same sonic value. It may not be a pretty, but my ears don't have eyes. Speakers are the opposite. I usually find that the more expensive, the better. Obviously you will have some "value" products that are great, but add more money and that value is still there, but won't compare with the next product. An RBH T2 for example is an expensive beast of a speaker that sounds amazing...until you compare it to something well above it's price point in say the Status Acoustics 8T. The same basic company, but much more expensive will sound much better more than likely.

So allow people to say what they like if it comes from tons of experience many may not have the ability to get due to not having the same budget/time/etc.

 

[PENG]

Every place will have a different number. HTM, AH, Soundstage, Stereophile, S&V, and every manufacturer.
We can only guess.

They probably use different weighting system. HTM seems always use A weighting. Stereophile likely uses a more stringent standard.

For example, HTM has just about every AVR's SNR above -100dBA @ 1w. Yet, the best SNR I've seen on Stereophile is probably the Mark Levinson No.532 300wpc x 2ch amp @ -105.4dBA.

HTM did have a couple of AVR in their recent tests at lower SNR, e.g. <100dBA. See examples below:

NAD787 ($4,000)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –70.19 dB left to right and –75.42 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –103.26 dBrA.

Pioneer VSX-42 ($450)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –75.56 dB left to right and –75.29 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.46 dBrA.

Rotel RSX-1562 ($2,599)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –85.04 dB left to right and –78.82 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –95.81 dBrA.

Marantz SR-6006 (1,200)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –76.85 dB left to right and –76.78 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –110.24 dBrA.

Denon AVR-3312 ($1,100)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –77.40 dB left to right and –77.93 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.68 dBrA.

Yamaha RX-A1010
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –101.96 dB left to right and –97.36 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.80 dBrA.

Arcam AVR-360 ($1,799)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –80.14 dB left to right and –84.32 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –110.66 dBrA.

Harman Kardon AVR-3650 ($999)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –72.82 decibels left to right and –72.11 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –103.05 dBrA.

Denon AVR-1612 ($349)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –83.11 dB left to right and –90.35 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with "A" weighting was –106.93 dBrA.

NAD T757 ($1,600)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –57.84 dB left to right and –58.01 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –105.48 dBrA.

Sony STR-DH520 ($229)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –86.28 dB left to right and –80.79 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with "A" weighting was –107.13 dBrA.

Anthem MRX-700 ($2000)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –73.01 decibels left to right and –72.06 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 hertz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –104.67 dBrA.

Marantz SR—7005 ($1,600)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –77.20 dB left to right and –76.63 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –98.00 dBrA.

Onkyo TX-NR5008 ($2,699)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –89.11 dB left to right and –82.03 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –106.30 dBrA.

Pioneer VSX-821 ($330)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –67.03 dB left to right and –63.24 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with "A" weighting was –89.11 dBrA.

 

[Irvrobinson]

They probably use different weighting system. HTM seems always use A weighting. Stereophile likely uses a more stringent standard.

Stereophile always measures both unweighted and A-weighted at 1W.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

NAD787 ($4,000) SNR 8ohm 10 Hz to 24 kHz was –103.26 dBrA.
Pioneer VSX-42 ($450) SNR was –108.46 dBrA.
Rotel RSX-1562 ($2,599)SNR with an 8-ohm 10 Hz to 24 kHz was –95.81 dBrA.
Denon AVR-1612 ($349) SNR with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz was –106.93 dBrA.
Sony STR-DH520 ($229) SNR with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz was –107.13 dBrA.
Marantz SR7005 ($1,600)SNR 8-ohm 10 Hz to 24 kHz was –98.00 dBrA.

Kind of sad how the cheap Pioneer, Sony, Denon have better than SNR than NAD, Rotel, Marantz.

HTM arasound JC1amp: The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 hertz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –109.45 dBrA using the RCA input and –103.88 using the XLR input.

Stereophile: The JC 1's signal/noise ratio (ref. 1W into 8 ohms) was 87.8dBA.

These are all A-weighted.

How can a $4,000 JC1 have a SNR of -103dBA when a $200 Sony is -107dBA?

And how can the RCA measure a lot better than XLR ?

HTM makes no sense to me.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Kind of sad how the cheap Pioneer, Sony, Denon have better than SNR than NAD, Rotel, Marantz.

Parasound JC1amp: The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 hertz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –109.45 dBrA using the RCA input and –103.88 using the XLR input.

These are all A-weighted.

How can a $4,000 JC1 have a SNR of -103dBA when a $200 Sony is -107dBA?

And how can the RCA measure a lot better than XLR ?

HTM makes no sense to me.

I don't know the details of the JC1 design, but two factors I can think of could explain what you feel are anomalies. First, I'm pretty sure the JC1 is an all-discrete design, while the Sony is almost certainly IC-based in the pre-amp stage and the 1st stage of the power amp circuits. I know audiophiles don't want to hear this, but ICs often have much superior characteristics for low-voltage circuits. One reason is that you get very consistent thermals with ICs, and at -100db that's a factor. ICs are also better because the smaller a circuit is the less noise it will pick up, and the easier it is to shield it.

Nowhere in the JC1 literature does it say it uses a fully balanced topology. If it did you would think Parasound would brag about it. This could have something to do with the lack of benefit for the XLR connection, because the differential signal may just be converted to single-ended right after the jack.

Of course, I'm just speculating.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know the details of the JC1 design, but two factors I can think of could explain what you feel are anomalies. First, I'm pretty sure the JC1 is an all-discrete design, while the Sony is almost certainly IC-based in the pre-amp stage and the 1st stage of the power amp circuits. I know audiophiles don't want to hear this, but ICs often have much superior characteristics for low-voltage circuits. One reason is that you get very consistent thermals with ICs, and at -100db that's a factor. ICs are also better because the smaller a circuit is the less noise it will pick up, and the easier it is to shield it.

Nowhere in the JC1 literature does it say it uses a fully balanced topology. If it did you would think Parasound would brag about it. This could have something to do with the lack of benefit for the XLR connection, because the differential signal may just be converted to single-ended right after the jack.

Of course, I'm just speculating.

Good points.

$4K components measuring like $400 components.

All kind of goes back to the saying that all these amps and preamps sort of sound the same. I'm sure audiophiles don't want to hear that.

And yeah, I would brag about being fully balanced too. Just because something is $4K or $5K, does not guarantee that it is fully balanced.

I noticed some of the Krell's don't brag about being fully balanced either.

Seems like most are not fully balanced.

 

[moves]

Good points.

$4K components measuring like $400 components.

All kind of goes back to the saying that all these amps and preamps sort of sound the same. I'm sure audiophiles don't want to hear that.

And yeah, I would brag about being fully balanced too. Just because something is $4K or $5K, does not guarantee that it is fully balanced.

I noticed some of the Krell's don't brag about being fully balanced either.

Seems like most are not fully balanced.

what do you mean by fully balanced?

 

[Irvrobinson]

what do you mean by fully balanced?

There's a really excellent explanation in the ATI product brochure on page 7, which can be downloaded here.