flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
I'm pretty sure I agree with you on the fact that amps driven within their limits and with similar measurements may sound similar (I can see the reasoning). In the case of the MA7000, you're also throwing in a preamplifier in the mix. Now for sake of argument, would a combination of a similarly spec'd amplifier (say 250 watts/ch) with a similarly priced+spec'd preamplifier "sound" different than the MA7000? If not, using the same amount of $$, would you spend more on the amplifier or the preamplifier? The MA7000 is MSRP $8,000, how would you divide that purchase? I ask because this is my hobby and interested in hearing opinions of people that have more experience in this field. I'm always up for learning plus it will give me my next purchases, maybe....:D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
It was Gene.

I believe I have also heard qualitative differences between amplifiers, but Gene's comments were indicative of a greater magnitude of difference than I've ever heard, and I've owned Levinsons and class A Krells. The differences I hear manifest themselves in listening fatigue, rather than any ability to pick them out in A/B testing.

I have regular access to a friend's system with Pass Labs amps, though I've never A/B'd them with anything. He also runs different speakers than I do, so any comparison is utterly meaningless. I can say that they are awesome amps, exquisitely built by passionate people in California, and that they are visual works of art as much as audio devices. Nonetheless, if you are worried about price performance compared to more mundane products, or you're wondering if there really are differences between an XA160.5 (which my friend uses) and a Crown XLS, you're not in their target market.

In the Stereophile review of the XA30.5, JA measured some very unusual distortion characteristics, in that the distortion spectrum was nearly all third harmonic. That has always fascinated me. I have wondered if such a different distortion spectrum would be audible.

In the past couple of years I've lost my passion for spending many thousands of dollars pursuing very subtle differences. Well, at least with amplifiers. Part of it could be my objective skepticism that any differences that are at least 80db below the fundamentals could result in overt audible differences.

That stuff aside, if you have to have a dream amp, you could do a lot worse than Pass Labs stuff. They really are awesome products built by awesome people. But anyone worried about the price is missing the point.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
In the Stereophile review of the XA30.5, JA measured some very unusual distortion characteristic...
And the measurements of Pass Lab are nothing special. Like SNR on the XA30.5 was 87dB A-weighted.

I was expecting godly numbers like SNR of -140dBA and XT of -140dB minus the Distortions found.

Even Kal Rubinson said that some amps sound differently, some amps don't sound differently, but none of the differences compare to speakers.
 
ratso

ratso

Full Audioholic
nice summation there, irv. i should mention that if i do wind up getting one, i will be getting a USED pass X250 which is around $2500. unfortunately like many, price is an issue - i certainly am not the "intended audience" for one of the top of the line pass amps. as for ADTG's comments it is the oldest audiophile chestnut to "trust your ears". this statement always makes me laugh as that is absolutely the LAST thing that audiophiles actually do - mention any kind of blind listening test and they go ballistic. measuring equipment is much more sensitive then the human ear, and if you can hear a difference you should be able to measure it (although it's funny that any self respecting audiophile will claim they can hear dog whistle frequencies and microscopic jitter levels easily from the kitchen with the dishwasher running).
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
And the measurements of Pass Lab are nothing special. Like SNR on the XA30.5 was 87dB A-weighted.

I was expecting godly numbers like SNR of -140dBA and XT of -140dB minus the Distortions found.
87db A-weighted below 1W is a very good measurement. I've seen better in JA's reviews, some mid-90s, but -83db unweighted is indicative of a quiet circuit. 140db below 1W is probably unmeasurable. I've seen some measurements posted by other sources of 110 to 120db below 1W, and I've never understood how those are measured and calculated.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The SNR on HTM are also for 1W. Most AVR have a SNR of -100dBA.

$400 Pioneer AVR:
THD+N from the CD input to the speaker output was less than 0.073% at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk was –75.56 dB left to right and –75.29 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with was –108.46 dBrA.

I think the 2.83v = 1w, right? :D

Of course, it's only for 1kHz, not 20kHz. :D

87db A-weighted below 1W is a very good measurement. I've seen better in JA's reviews, some mid-90s, but -83db unweighted is indicative of a quiet circuit. 140db below 1W is probably unmeasurable. I've seen some measurements posted by other sources of 110 to 120db below 1W, and I've never understood how those are measured and calculated.
.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I'm not in the camp that all amps 'sound the same'. I'm sure there are some horrible sounding, poorly designed amps that have good numbers and a flat frequency response.

I'm also not in the camp that only a $30K amp can sound smooth, round, warm etc...

I've played amp roulette and money should go into the speaker. Irv really said it best. My experience has me disinterested in going out and actively seeking a Pass/Odyssey/Theta/Classe amps. Now if someone want's to bring over one I would be all for it and it would be a good time.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm not in the camp that all amps 'sound the same'. I'm sure there are some horrible sounding, poorly designed amps that have good numbers and a flat frequency response.

I'm also not in the camp that only a $30K amp can sound smooth, round, warm etc...

I've played amp roulette and money should go into the speaker. Irv really said it best. My experience has me disinterested in going out and actively seeking a Pass/Odyssey/Theta/Classe amps. Now if someone want's to bring over one I would be all for it and it would be a good time.
Well, if I owned a $30K amp, it will be the smoothest sounding amp, it will sound significantly better than all your amps, and that's all there is to it. :D
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I guess the other thing about paying these prices is the build quality of these amps. I've heard from a number of people that these things will last a half a lifetime, if not your entire one.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I guess the other thing about paying these prices is the build quality of these amps. I've heard from a number of people that these things will last a half a lifetime, if not your entire one.
Maybe. Components age, like capacitors. They may last your lifetime, but perhaps not without some servicing, and that can be expensive. Replacing the caps on a high-end amp can easily cost $1000.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I think the 2.83v = 1w, right? :D

Of course, it's only for 1kHz, not 20kHz. :D
You're half correct. 2.83 volts does equal 1 watt into an 8 ohm load. I don't understand your second statement though. SNR is measured across a frequency band, like 20-20KHz, not at a single frequency. Personally, I like to see unlimited, unweighted SNRs, because noise outside of 20-20KHz is still a sign of bad design, IMHO.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You're half correct. 2.83 volts does equal 1 watt into an 8 ohm load. I don't understand your second statement though. SNR is measured across a frequency band, like 20-20KHz, not at a single frequency. Personally, I like to see unlimited, unweighted SNRs, because noise outside of 20-20KHz is still a sign of bad design, IMHO.
Oh, sorry, the 1kHz was for the Xtalk. :D

The SNR was from 10Hz-24kHz. But my point was, even a $400 AVR has a SNR of -108dBA. And the Pass Lab is -87dBA?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Oh, sorry, the 1kHz was for the Xtalk. :D

The SNR was from 10Hz-24kHz. But my point was, even a $400 AVR has a SNR of -108dBA. And the Pass Lab is -87dBA?
I doubt those measurements are comparable. The SNR of 108db below 1W would be better than JA has ever measured from *any* amplifier, at least to my knowledge. Also, it does not jibe with most manufacturers' ratings, which are typically 100-120db below full power, which puts the specs at 80-90db below 1W. And the AVR measurement includes the line-level pre-amp section, making it more unbelievable. So I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.

That AVR measurement is too good to be true in the context of the Stereophile measurements.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Maybe. Components age, like capacitors. They may last your lifetime, but perhaps not without some servicing, and that can be expensive. Replacing the caps on a high-end amp can easily cost $1000.
that's yucky!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I doubt those measurements are comparable. The SNR of 108db below 1W would be better than JA has ever measured from *any* amplifier, at least to my knowledge. Also, it does not jibe with most manufacturers' ratings, which are typically 100-120db below full power, which puts the specs at 80-90db below 1W. And the AVR measurement includes the line-level pre-amp section, making it more unbelievable. So I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.

That AVR measurement is too good to be true in the context of the Stereophile measurements.
Good point. Even the Mark Levinson 532 (which is probably an enhanced version of the ATI AT3002) measured only -105.4dBA.

So no way these AVR can be better than that.

Mark Levinson No.532H power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

The Classé CT-M600 SNR measured 95.8dBA, the Bryston 7B SST2 was 95.7dBA; the Ayre Acoustics MX-R was 92.5dBA; the Musical Fidelity Titan was 96.1dBA; and the MBL 9007 was 100.6dBA.

So looks like the Mark Levinson team (probably also ATI, Lexicon, JBL, Cary, Theta, Outlaw) has the best SNR of 105.4dBA on Stereophile.

I wonder why the SNR specs on Stereophile is so low. ATI says the AT3002 is -123dBA.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's below full power, so the 1W number is going to be at least 26db worse.
Bottom line, we have to compare Stereophile to Stereophile, AH to AH, HTM to HTM. We can't compare HTM to Stereophile to AH, etc.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Good point. Even the Mark Levinson 532 (which is probably an enhanced version of the ATI AT3002) measured only -105.4dBA.

So no way these AVR can be better than that.

Mark Levinson No.532H power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

The Classé CT-M600 SNR measured 95.8dBA, the Bryston 7B SST2 was 95.7dBA; the Ayre Acoustics MX-R was 92.5dBA; the Musical Fidelity Titan was 96.1dBA; and the MBL 9007 was 100.6dBA.

So looks like the Mark Levinson team (probably also ATI, Lexicon, JBL, Cary, Theta, Outlaw) has the best SNR of 105.4dBA on Stereophile.

I wonder why the SNR specs on Stereophile is so low. ATI says the AT3002 is -123dBA.
Can you clarify on what this means? SNR means signal to noise ratio correct? What do these numbers actually mean?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Signal-to-noise ratio (often abbreviated SNR or S/N) is a measure used in science and engineering that compares the level of a desired signal to the level of background noise.

from wikipedia

the higher the number the better. In practical terms it means that with the amp on and the source on the speakers will be dead silent. No hum, no buzz, no white noise.

The question that usually arises is "At what point do the differences become more scientific than practical?" or put another way, is there an SNR, above which, audibility is negligible?
 
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