Review - Side by Side: LMS5400 vs TSAD18

[Docks]

I have the extremely lucky opportunity to test the Funkywaves TSAD18 vs the LMS5400 sub, both using the extensively braced FW18.0 cabinet custom made to your wishes.
Thanks Nathan from Funkaudio/Funkywaves for this opportunity.
I will start off with this initial piece, and provide additional comments as I continue testing these subs.

Unpacking
As you see the FW18.0 comes very well packaged, foam, wrapping, wood panels and a thick cardboard box keep this in good shape during shipping. Opening the box and removing the subwoofer reassures that this is a premium product and by no means a typical subwoofer. A helper to unpack and carry this is HIGHLY recommended. Having the LMS5400 from funkaudio did not dull the experience of unpacking a second one of these. Veneer was as specified in a nice jet black color (yes not very original, but I love it) dark enough to be black but light enough to still see the grains in the veneer.

Test System
Let me start by presenting my system.
Paradigm S8 main channels, FW18.0 (lms 5400) sub on left, FW18.0 (TSAD18) sub on right.
Behringer EP4000 on sub duty, bridged and switching between the two subs, also testing them together unbriged with this amp.
QSC CX404 as main channel amp
Integra DHC 80.2 Preamp
Behringer DCX 2496 adding EQ as desired (had about +13db at 20hz with a second order , to counter the roll off of the LMS5400 in a sealed cabinet).
Belkin PF60 power center (mainly bought to use as delayed start from preamp DC trigger)

Initial Impressions
Upon placing this sub in its position i was immediately surprised at the weight difference between the TSAD and the LMS (50 pounds difference!). The TSAD is a considerably lighter driver, especially when compared directly to the LMS. After placing the TSAD I sat down on the couch just to take it in, and was immediately struck with the attractiveness of the carbon fiber on such a large driver. A gentle push on the driver showed me that the woofer is surprisingly stiff, the LMS almost feels sloppy when beside the TSAD. I was actually concerned about the travel of this driver because the thing feels like it shouldn’t move much.

Music!
Digging through my FLAC collection resulted in me choosing my first album for this.
Daft Punk: Tron soundtrack and cranking the EP4000 up allowed me to become fully engrossed in this. I’ve heard this on my LMS, so I had a reference point, I honestly thought these two drivers would sound very similar - I was mistaken. The LMS seems to have a bit more bass lower, but the TSAD has more higher up, and when I say “higher” i mean 40hz. I asked myself, if its lower is it better? The meat of most music is above 40hz, which the TSAD appears to excel on this soundtrack. Using both subs side by side, i was adjusting the channels again to my surprise it sounded like the LMS was “slower” than the TSAD, almost like the LMS is dragging the music out, this gives me the impression that the TSAD is a bit more “true to the source”

**More to be added over the next few days/weeks, I have been very busy with work. If anyone has questions i can try answer them.**



*Unpacking*

*In place*

 

[shadyJ]

Jesus, that is so beautiful I can feel my eyes welling up. You are a lucky guy.

 

[Adam]

...that is so beautiful I can feel my eyes welling up. You are a lucky guy.

I thought the same thing when I saw that picture...but only now have my eyes dried enough to start typing again.

 

[Irvrobinson]

That's the best speaker packaging I've ever seen.

I'm surprised the two subs sound so different. Are you using a low-pass filter of any sort?

 

[Docks]

That's the best speaker packaging I've ever seen.

I'm surprised the two subs sound so different. Are you using a low-pass filter of any sort?

Yeah both 80 and 100hz low pass from the integra. They are just different subs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I should be getting my dual TSAD18v1 in a couple of weeks from Nathan.

The one thing that concerned me about the LMS is that it is more fragile than the TSAD.

Or I should say that the reason I got the TSAD was because Nathan said it is much tougher than the LMS.

I don't think I would/ could ever challenge the LMS to even break a sweat, but .......

I think Nathan said the LMS has a 2dB advantage over the TSAD between 30Hz-40Hz, 1dB advantage over the TSAD from 30Hz-40Hz, but the TSAD has a 3dB advantage over the LMS from above 40Hz.

But that's all measurements. Like Irvrobinson, I didn't think we could hear a significant difference in real life. But I'm glad you liked the TSAD.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah both 80 and 100hz low pass from the integra. They are just different subs.

I'm not doubting you, but the difference strikes me as odd, especially since you're using a low-pass filter. Perhaps Nathan will chime in with what his measurements reveal. I would have thought that below, say, 100db of output these subs would be indistinguishable from one another below 100Hz.

 

[Docks]

I'm not doubting you, but the difference strikes me as odd, especially since you're using a low-pass filter. Perhaps Nathan will chime in with what his measurements reveal. I would have thought that below, say, 100db of output these subs would be indistinguishable from one another below 100Hz.

This is subjective but I can tell you drivers with similar freq responses can sound different, especially when you start to compare things like Ribbon to metal or fabric tweeters (driver material). I'm sure others here would agree with this, also when you take into account things like phase differences, room shape, seating position etc.

2 Objective points possibly supporting my findings:
I believe the extra punch (speed) with the TSAD to be a result of two things.
1. Linear inductance variance of less than 10% through its entire mechanical travel range, the lms can vary over 100% (This immediately shows me the TSAD is more in control)
2. Slightly boosted bass above 40hz, and less below 40. I suspect the LMS has little control below 40hz.

If you have a chance to listen to the two drivers side by side you would notice a difference.

Here are measurements sent to me from Nathan. The black being the lms, the red TSAD. (Mainly to reinforce what ADTG said), ignore the room hump at 40hz.

 

[Matt34]

I think the "fragile-ness" of the LMS gets a bit over-exaggerated. I've pounded on mine and it barely even moves, much less hits max excursion.

Sure, if try and play a 10hz sine wave at 130db, you'll probably blow it up, but lettuce be real.

 

[funky waves]

Yes there are many other factors other than room response, and even distortion, that can make drivers(yes even subwoofers, as some people do believe this to be true with mids and tweeters, many do not believe it true with subwoofers) sound different. Even when the LMS and TSAD are Eq'ed to identical frequency response's(their THD curves are very similar, with the TSAD having slightly higher THD under 30hz, and less over ~50hz), they do sound "different"

The main differences that make the TSAD18 sound different than the LMS, "better"(everyone so far who has compared them side by side has come to this conclusion), are efficiency, power compression, and inductance linearity.

The overall efficiency of the TSAD is higher than the LMS, allowing it to have more overall output with the same power

The power compression is lower on the TSAD, giving it better dynamics especially in the upper(over 40hz) bass. This is also compounded with the higher efficiency.

Inductance linearity, this I feel is a common design oversight with subwoofer drivers, as the inductance changes through the stroke of the cone this changes the impeadance curve even as low as ~40/50hz, which affects the frequency response, distortion and power required, from the amplifier(the amplifier is dealing with changing loads with every cone movement, and different changes at different frequencies).

Docks; try moving your crossover frequency up, even as high as 200hz, and compare the TSAD to the LMS with increasing frequency. Your setup lends itself to this without having localization issues.

 

[funky waves]

I think the "fragile-ness" of the LMS gets a bit over-exaggerated. I've pounded on mine and it barely even moves, much less hits max excursion.

Sure, if try and play a 10hz sine wave at 130db, you'll probably blow it up, but lettuce be real.

Its not so much fragileness as it is that the driver has the ability to run itself into its mechanical limits with full motor force, even so it can take quite a bit of bottoming before it actually suffers damage, but its like building a car with 1000HP but with a drivetrain rated to take 700, yes if you only ever use 700 you'll be fine, but you know if you ever open it up something could give, and maybe not but the risk is there.

In a sealed enclosure, unless you have more than ~2kw on tap, and are reckless with it, you are reasonably safe. The issue mostly comes up with a ported or passive radiator alignment, even with the proper protection via a highpass filter, it is surprisingly easy to bottom out even with ~2kw

 

[Matt34]

Yes there are many other factors other than room response, and even distortion, that can make drivers(yes even subwoofers, as some people do believe this to be true with mids and tweeters, many do not believe it true with subwoofers) sound different. Even when the LMS and TSAD are Eq'ed to identical frequency response's(their THD curves are very similar, with the TSAD having slightly higher THD under 30hz, and less over ~50hz), they do sound "different"

The main differences that make the TSAD18 sound different than the LMS, "better"(everyone so far who has compared them side by side has come to this conclusion), are efficiency, power compression, and inductance linearity.

The overall efficiency of the TSAD is higher than the LMS, allowing it to have more overall output with the same power

The power compression is lower on the TSAD, giving it better dynamics especially in the upper(over 40hz) bass. This is also compounded with the higher efficiency.

Inductance linearity, this I feel is a common design oversight with subwoofer drivers, as the inductance changes through the stroke of the cone this changes the impeadance curve even as low as ~40/50hz, which affects the frequency response, distortion and power required, from the amplifier(the amplifier is dealing with changing loads with every cone movement, and different changes at different frequencies).

Docks; try moving your crossover frequency up, even as high as 200hz, and compare the TSAD to the LMS with increasing frequency. Your setup lends itself to this without having localization issues.

I might have to give the 18.0 with the TSAD a try and compare them myself.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Docks; try moving your crossover frequency up, even as high as 200hz, and compare the TSAD to the LMS with increasing frequency. Your setup lends itself to this without having localization issues.

200Hz?

Do you think hypothetically that the TSAD will sound even better if we set the XO @ 200Hz, instead of the usual 80Hz?

 

[Irvrobinson]

200Hz?

Do you think hypothetically that the TSAD will sound even better if we set the XO @ 200Hz, instead of the usual 80Hz?

I've been recently retuning my system, because I have tweaker's disease and can't leave well enough alone. While the OmniMic measured my in-room response at +/- 5db overall (with 1/6 octave smoothing), both sine sweep and noise testing pointed to a ~5db trough in the response curve centered around 125Hz. That's not a very good place for a suck-out, so I've played around with optimizing that region. About six hours or so of experimenting last weekend led me to close on moving the low-pass filter up to a knee frequency of 120Hz, with a 12db/octave slope, 3db of boost at 100Hz, and with the mains running full-range.

The sine sweeps point to what is now a slight emphasis in the octave from 100-200Hz, perhaps a couple of db, so now that region is pumped up by about 7db compared to what I was hearing. Much better! Now I'm hearing an extra touch of realism, and for some reason I hear more detail in nearly every recording. Imaging is just as good as ever, which on my system is so good it envelopes you.

I figured with speakers like the Salon 2s the low-pass filter should be set pretty low, but experimentation shows otherwise, at least in my room, and it is also highlighting that sub linearity above 100Hz can be pretty important. It is interesting to note, however, that response above 100Hz was considered a weak point in the AH review of the DD18+, so I must be so far below the operational limits of the sub that a relative lack of headroom about 100Hz hasn't affected me, yet.

 

[Docks]

200Hz?

Do you think hypothetically that the TSAD will sound even better if we set the XO @ 200Hz, instead of the usual 80Hz?

Distortion and power handling should benefit. Possible localization issues may arrive, dual subs should help prevent this.
I will keep everyone posted with how that works out.

Irvrobinson its funny you mention 120hz suckout, I've ran into a similar issue in my room as well and have been meaning to tweak against it.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Irvrobinson its funny you mention 120hz suckout, I've ran into a similar issue in my room as well and have been meaning to tweak against it.

And you probably have the same problem I do - I'm guessing you are loath to move your main speakers. I hate to move mine because they positioned so perfectly for imaging, but I found in the end that means fixing a problem in the 120Hz range requires letting the sub play up there, and then using sub positioning and equalization to implement the changes.

 

[funky waves]

The TSAD18 is +/-3db up to ~800hz, so yes 200hz is no problem. And it sounds great right up to 250hz+. Depending on the main speakers and overall setup, 80~120 is good if the subwoofer is not located near the mains, if it is between the mains or even close to one, 100~180 is good, for dual subs located close to each main 120~250 works well.

I have found the 80~120hz region can be problematic for many rooms, so sometimes having the crossover up higher, 120~200, can make it easier to get a good transition between sub(s) and mains. But this only works if the subwoofer is clean up that high.

 

[phred_t]

Docks thanks for the info. I am currently trying to decide between the TASD18 and the LMS5400.

Are you still testing these 2 subwoofers? Any additional thoughts after more listening time?