Very basic questions for a starter

[DrKernel]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the US and in San Francisco. My first language is not English so I need some help in understanding the below items.

What's the audio receiver in two sentences? I know the video sat. receiver (for my TV overseas!)
I know what's the amp, but what's the pre-amp in two sentences?
Is there one device that has receiver, amp and pre-amp at the same time?

My ultimate goal is to produce high quality sound (mainly music/songs) with the least number of items that's total around 1000$. I didn't have any systems before (except my dad's AKAI legacy sound system that was VERY loud and VERY noisy!) but I used to go with my friends to mid-size audio recording studios to record their songs (so the bar is high). There was these two bookshelf speakers that was clear enough to get any background noise in the voice (was M Audio? I can't remember). So please don't just recommend for me some loud speakers. I'm looking for the clarity/quality of the audio with decent Bass/Triple (I still like the Bass!). I'll use this system to listen to music after work or to use it for after party at my place with my friends (so it should be clear and loud enough). I've been doing some research and seems like the build-in amps (powered speakers) won't do the job (correct?).

I have been doing some research and seems like there are good speakers from Klipsch RS61, JBL, Sony and B&W... I didn't look yet at any amps (I would love to have ONE device beside my speakers - I'm not opening a studio soon ). I'm open to any suggestion on dedicate and affordable audio input devices that will be better than my laptop or TV (for future use)

So far my plan is to use my laptop audio output (or my TV). I'm open to the idea of getting scalable system so I can invest more in the same system in the future by adding speakers or whatever - but for now, two bookshelf speakers with an amp should do!

P.S.
I always live in small places (Studios/1BR..etc, so getting me fewer items will really help me out!)
I'm not sure what to look for: bookshelf speakers or floorstanding

as a novice, my first search result got me this link - that puts Klipsch on the top.

bookshelf-speakers-review.toptenreviews.com/


Appreciate your thoughts!

Thanks!

 

[LB06]

In my limited experience the audio chain is something like this:

Decoder -> DAC -> Preamp -> power amp -> Speakers

The decoder converts certain codecs such as Dolby Digital, DTS or FLAC into LPCM. LPCM is basically digitised audio waves with a certain sample frequency and bit depth.

Then the DAC takes LPCM as input and outputs line-level (i.e. unamplified) audio waves.

The pre-amp can then do stuff with the volume and the EQ and such.

Then the processed but still unamplified signal goes through the power amp, which converts the line-level signal into an amplified speaker-level signal, which is then fed to the speakers.


In this chain there can be multiple points of entry (from a logical as well as a physical pov). E.g. when using hdmi or S/PDIF with Dolby Digital it will have to go through the decoder first. If the output is LPCM, it can go straight to the DAC. If you're outputting audio though a regular sound card such as a Creative SB, you'll basically be sending a line-level signal directly into the power amp.

The steps can be located in various physical locations. Like I said above an analogue audio card + drivers basically is a decoder + DAC + Preamp. But when you use the S/PDIF connection suddenly it's just a decoder, or not even that (S/DIF passthrough).

An AV receiver usually is decoders + DAC + preamp + power amp. With multiple hubs so you can connect multiple devices. However, the fact that those step are there, again, doesn't mean that they are always used. Most AV receivers will of course accept analogue audio, so the whole decoder/DAC thing is being skipped. Simultaneously, the amplification step can also be skipped if you use the pre-outs (it's in the name). This will output line-level signal and send it to either a device that doesn't need amplification (e.g. headphones) or that do the amping themselves (e.g. active speakers or subwoofers).

What I'm trying to illustrate is that the logical steps are pretty much decoupled from the physical logical. Another example, so speakers have an optical or coaxial S/PDIF input. This means they at least have a DAC and everything beyond and probably also some decoders.

 

[DrKernel]

Thanks LB06, that was really helpful. In able for me to translate that into action, I'll need suggestions about the below:

I understand that I need a pair of speakers: What brands/model that will achieve what I mentioned up there?

What's the device model/brand that will live and connect between my laptop's audio output and the speakers?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks LB06, that was really helpful. In able for me to translate that into action, I'll need suggestions about the below:

I understand that I need a pair of speakers: What brands/model that will achieve what I mentioned up there?

What's the device model/brand that will live and connect between my laptop's audio output and the speakers?

Lets get back from theory to earth and use real example like having music playing from laptop

Before we give you any advice, we must know several things:
What is your budget, How big is your room, is laptop is your only source of music or there also other sources (cable tv etc..) is TV is somehow in the mix? How do you intend to use the speakers - Music only or also movies and gaming? What type of laptop you have? Do you have digital audio interface or just plain usb?

 

[LB06]

Thanks LB06, that was really helpful. In able for me to translate that into action, I'll need suggestions about the below:

I understand that I need a pair of speakers: What brands/model that will achieve what I mentioned up there?

What's the device model/brand that will live and connect between my laptop's audio output and the speakers?

If you do not plan on upgrading to surround anytime soon, I would look into to leaving out the receiver and go with actively powered floorstanders. This will

- limit your number of devices to zero, which complies with your goal of having as little devices as possible AND
- you get to spend the entire amount on speakers alone, meaning you don't have to buy a separate receiver that's going to take 300 off your budget.

If you have multiple sources (besides your laptop) you can use your TV as a hub instead of the receiver. The DAC in the TV sucks, but you can get around that by using the digital audio output of your TV.

If you then get active speakers with a DAC, you'll be able to connect the TV to the speakers using S/PDIF and the devices to your TV using hdmi. I'm talking about speakers with a connection like this (optical or coaxial S/PDIF, either is fine):

Those are the advantages. Here're the disadvantages:
- Less to no flexibility when it comes to upgrading. Since basically everything is contained within the speakers you're going to have to throw those out should you want to upgrade.
- Which also means no upgrading to surround
- Your TV probably will have to be on for you to get sound. Unless you take the TV out of the equation and connect your laptop and other devices directly to the speakers. Of course the number of devices will be limited to the number of inputs on the speakers and some may have to be analogue.

That regarding the infrastructure, or whatever you want to call it. As for the type of speakers (whether you go active or passive), I would STRONGLY recommend speakers with a wide frequency response on the low end. This may just eliminate the need for a separate subwoofer. Pay attention to the specification about the frequency response and then the first number (e.g. 50Hz - 20KHz). All else being equal, the lower the better. And if the specs don't specify the frequency response at +/-3dB or -6dB, it's not reliable, because then you don't know how they measured it.

In the low frequency department, you simply need volume, and since you want as few devices as possible (which I assume more or less precludes a subwoofer), volume is key which is why I suggested floorstanders rather than bookshelves.

Since the only time I ever used active speakers was when we had a PC with some silly Logitechs connected to it, I can't be of much help in giving you specific suggestions.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the US and in San Francisco. My first language is not English so I need some help in understanding the below items.

What's the audio receiver in two sentences? I know the video sat. receiver (for my TV overseas!)
I know what's the amp, but what's the pre-amp in two sentences?
Is there one device that has receiver, amp and pre-amp at the same time?
...

Appreciate your thoughts!

Thanks!

Welcome

While your questions have been answered to some extent, a couple of additions.
In the past, an audio receiver was for audio only, to amplify analog audio signals so a speaker can play them. It contained an amplifier, a pre amplifier and a radio either an FM or AM or both.
Today, the receiver contains a bit more. It can process digital audio signals and to some extent video signals too.
A pre amp is a device that can select and amplify signals from multiple types of inputs and passes it on to an amp for power.

ps. where are you coming from? temporarily or permanently?

 

[DrKernel]

Welcome

While your questions have been answered to some extent, a couple of additions.
In the past, an audio receiver was for audio only, to amplify analog audio signals so a speaker can play them. It contained an amplifier, a pre amplifier and a radio either an FM or AM or both.
Today, the receiver contains a bit more. It can process digital audio signals and to some extent video signals too.
A pre amp is a device that can select and amplify signals from multiple types of inputs and passes it on to an amp for power.

ps. where are you coming from? temporarily or permanently?

The budget is 1000$ max for everything - I wish we can shrink it.

I live in 1BR apartment that's small. I don't really know the size in sq ft.
I want to use either my laptop, my PC or TV or maybe radio to play music. Maybe I'll play movies or games in the future, but this is not a priority to me at all.

I have Lenovo T420s laptop with Conexant 20672 SmartAudio HD audio. I have the normal output jacks and USBs. I have another powerful PC (24GB RAM, 8 cores with Integrated Intel/Realtek HD ALC262 Audio). Which one is better? Most probably I'll use either one or both interchangeably.

 

[DrKernel]

Welcome

While your questions have been answered to some extent, a couple of additions.
In the past, an audio receiver was for audio only, to amplify analog audio signals so a speaker can play them. It contained an amplifier, a pre amplifier and a radio either an FM or AM or both.
Today, the receiver contains a bit more. It can process digital audio signals and to some extent video signals too.
A pre amp is a device that can select and amplify signals from multiple types of inputs and passes it on to an amp for power.

ps. where are you coming from? temporarily or permanently?

Thanks mtrycrafts. I 'm coming from Dubai and will live in SF for a while (few years - maybe forever)

 

[DrKernel]

If you do not plan on upgrading to surround anytime soon, I would look into to leaving out the receiver and go with actively powered floorstanders. This will

- limit your number of devices to zero, which complies with your goal of having as little devices as possible AND
- you get to spend the entire amount on speakers alone, meaning you don't have to buy a separate receiver that's going to take 300 off your budget.

If you have multiple sources (besides your laptop) you can use your TV as a hub instead of the receiver. The DAC in the TV sucks, but you can get around that by using the digital audio output of your TV.

If you then get active speakers with a DAC, you'll be able to connect the TV to the speakers using S/PDIF and the devices to your TV using hdmi. I'm talking about speakers with a connection like this (optical or coaxial S/PDIF, either is fine):

(Image ommitted)

Those are the advantages. Here're the disadvantages:
- Less to no flexibility when it comes to upgrading. Since basically everything is contained within the speakers you're going to have to throw those out should you want to upgrade.
- Which also means no upgrading to surround
- Your TV probably will have to be on for you to get sound. Unless you take the TV out of the equation and connect your laptop and other devices directly to the speakers. Of course the number of devices will be limited to the number of inputs on the speakers and some may have to be analogue.

That regarding the infrastructure, or whatever you want to call it. As for the type of speakers (whether you go active or passive), I would STRONGLY recommend speakers with a wide frequency response on the low end. This may just eliminate the need for a separate subwoofer. Pay attention to the specification about the frequency response and then the first number (e.g. 50Hz - 20KHz). All else being equal, the lower the better. And if the specs don't specify the frequency response at +/-3dB or -6dB, it's not reliable, because then you don't know how they measured it.

In the low frequency department, you simply need volume, and since you want as few devices as possible (which I assume more or less precludes a subwoofer), volume is key which is why I suggested floorstanders rather than bookshelves.

Since the only time I ever used active speakers was when we had a PC with some silly Logitechs connected to it, I can't be of much help in giving you specific suggestions.

Thanks for your quick reply. I'm fine with the floorstanding speakers (Active or passive). I won't really have multiple sources as what I have in mind is: a jack that will be always plugged in to my PC audio output and that PC should have all the songs/tracks as well as internet radio (I have large bandwidth!). I don't want to get the TV in the equation at all. you're right I don't want to buy seperate subwoofer if my floorstanding speakers will do the job... but if the difference is huge then I would get a subwoofer.

Can you suggest two passive speakers with one all-in-one amp that can do the job for me? at least till we hear back from somebody else about the powered/active speakers recommendations

 

[DrKernel]

Just a quick update: I checked the below floorstanding speaker out:

RF - 52 II Floorstanding Speaker | Klipsch

and these sizes won't work with my place at all... I thought it'll be bigger but not that large. Maybe we should get amp + bookshelf speakers + subwoofer (while all should be small in size).


Also how about Active Studio/Reference Monitors?

 

[DrKernel]

Hi guys,
Thanks a lot for your help. I have bought two Mackie MR8 MK2 Studio Reference speakers
http://www.mackie.com/products/mrmk2series/pdf/MR8mk2_OM.PDF

I hope I made the right decision. The sounds is good though (way better than the M Audio)

Let me know if you have any comment (I have 30 days return policy)

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Hi guys,
Thanks a lot for your help. I have bought two Mackie MR8 MK2 Studio Reference speakers
http://www.mackie.com/products/mrmk2series/pdf/MR8mk2_OM.PDF

I hope I made the right decision. The sounds is good though (way better than the M Audio)

Let me know if you have any comment (I have 30 days return policy)

I personally think you did good and I was about to recommend active pro monitors anyway
Only think I would add is usb sound card or usb interface....
This one is a bit more than I would normally pay for such device, but since it's has balanced (better noise isolation) its might be worth the extra:
XDA-1 Balanced DAC | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifi

You could attach both laptop and desktop at same time, laptop with usb and desktop with coax or optical spd/if (if you have it)

You also need to get balanced XLR cables to connect
http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=xlr

 

[LB06]

Indeed. Since you have active, but purely analogue speakers some other device is going to have to do the D/A conversion. You can let the laptop do it, but they results probably won't be as good as they could be.

And if you plan to make longer runs from the source to the speakers, they connection should also be balanced.

 

[caper26]

You can get an external sound card for $25 for laptops. I have one and it has made a world of difference.

I was gonig to suggest to the OP:
2 X RC-10 bookshelves: $220
1 X s10.3 subwoofer: $220
That leaves $560 for anything else, including an amp, interconnects. Should be able to get a good amp on CL or something for a couple hundred. That would be a kickass 2.1 listening setup for not a lot of $$$.

 

[DrKernel]

Thanks guys for your help and sorry for the late reply!

I have attached the back of my speakers. Which one is the best input for the best audio? and what do you mean by analogue audio? I think I'll use my PC output (realteck HD build it in audio. Not good?) and using Windows Media player to play songs. I use the TRS balanced connection shown on the back of the speaker.

Where that DAV should go and what's the added value

Also any suggestion on the player? winamp or jet audio or WM?

 

[vinicior]

Hi

Hey, LB06 is correct. This Pre Amp-> Amp problem may or may not take time. You should consult your neighbours as per my thinking.

 

[LB06]

Thanks guys for your help and sorry for the late reply!

I have attached the back of my speakers. Which one is the best input for the best audio? and what do you mean by analogue audio? I think I'll use my PC output (realteck HD build it in audio. Not good?) and using Windows Media player to play songs. I use the TRS balanced connection shown on the back of the speaker.

Where that DAV should go and what's the added value

Also any suggestion on the player? winamp or jet audio or WM?

Input doesn't matter. You're being bottlenecked by the laptop's connection and DAC anyway. Balanced is the best, but both sides have to be balanced or it will fallback to unbalanced. But as long as the cable length isn't too long you shouldn't worry about balanced vs balanced.

The thing that will affect AQ the most is the sound card or DAC used. A DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter) is an important part of your sound card that converts digital signals coming from your laptop to analogue sound waves that your speakers can amplify and send into the air for you to listen to.

And you laptop's DAC may not be that good. Especially since everything is crammed into a very little box, there could be quite some interference from other other components. This is also why I said if you get active speakers you should look for ones with a DAC.

Anyway, not all hope is lost; if you wish to improve the situation, there's two things you can do. Either get a proper external USB sound card (preferably with balanced output connections) with a good DAC.

Or get a dedicated DAC which usually accepts digital S/PDIF connections. In the latter case you can connect your DAC via an optical output connection (toslink). There may be one hidden in the regular 3,5mm output jack (it's called mini-toslink). Check your laptop's specs to be sure.

Either solution will be fine. The USB soundcard is geared towards computer usage (basically it'll only work a on laptop or PC), while a DAC is much more geared towards A/V / HiFi / Home Theatre usage. Toslink is very common in the A/V world, while USB isn't at all (for audio). Of course Toslink will only work for your laptop if it has toslink. This may be a consideration for future upgrades.

 

[DrKernel]

Input doesn't matter. You're being bottlenecked by the laptop's connection and DAC anyway. Balanced is the best, but both sides have to be balanced or it will fallback to unbalanced. But as long as the cable length isn't too long you shouldn't worry about balanced vs balanced.

The thing that will affect AQ the most is the sound card or DAC used. A DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter) is an important part of your sound card that converts digital signals coming from your laptop to analogue sound waves that your speakers can amplify and send into the air for you to listen to.

And you laptop's DAC may not be that good. Especially since everything is crammed into a very little box, there could be quite some interference from other other components. This is also why I said if you get active speakers you should look for ones with a DAC.

Anyway, not all hope is lost; if you wish to improve the situation, there's two things you can do. Either get a proper external USB sound card (preferably with balanced output connections) with a good DAC.

Or get a dedicated DAC which usually accepts digital S/PDIF connections. In the latter case you can connect your DAC via an optical output connection (toslink). There may be one hidden in the regular 3,5mm output jack (it's called mini-toslink). Check your laptop's specs to be sure.

Either solution will be fine. The USB soundcard is geared towards computer usage (basically it'll only work a on laptop or PC), while a DAC is much more geared towards A/V / HiFi / Home Theatre usage. Toslink is very common in the A/V world, while USB isn't at all (for audio). Of course Toslink will only work for your laptop if it has toslink. This may be a consideration for future upgrades.

OK sounds good. I will get the USB sound card with good DAC... any recommendations?

P.S.
The speakers has some front LED and one of them is little dimmed and it worries me.. do you think I should change it? I don't feel there is any prob with the performance.

 

[DrKernel]

You can get an external sound card for $25 for laptops. I have one and it has made a world of difference.

I was gonig to suggest to the OP:
2 X RC-10 bookshelves: $220
1 X s10.3 subwoofer: $220
That leaves $560 for anything else, including an amp, interconnects. Should be able to get a good amp on CL or something for a couple hundred. That would be a kickass 2.1 listening setup for not a lot of $$$.

Thanks. I got active speakers instead
I'm looking for recos for USB sound cards

BTW, I'm using my PC, so PCI sounds cards are OK too... if they're better I would prefer to go with PCI (or for the better quality)