Request for pro amp reviews

[edoggrc51]

Hhhhmmmm..... Maybe I should try my own little shootout???

I have a Cinenova Grande 5 that I can match up against my LG clone amps that I use for my subs. That would be interesting to say the least.

 

[Gordonj]

Gene I have some pro amps lined up in my office, new and in boxes ready to go just let me know when.

An interesting side note, I had some crown factory guys in my conference room yesterday and the subject of using the XLS series amps for HT came up. Crown finds it fascinating that people are starting to use those amps for home stereo systems. Since they were designed for the low end portable/dj market they can't imagine why anyone would use it for HT. In fact since the XLS amps have become such a demand they have a new line of class D amps (they are calling them class "I" after the new I-drive stuff) that will be getting HT certified because of the demand seen for the XLS amps. And the new stuff - wow set money aside now - is all I'm saying.

Also of note the new D class amps (the E series ) from Lab Gruppen. 1200 watts of power in a single rack space amp that weights 8lbs and cost about $600!

Gordon

 

[jinjuku]

Gene I have some pro amps lined up in my office, new and in boxes ready to go just let me know when.

An interesting side note, I had some crown factory guys in my conference room yesterday and the subject of using the XLS series amps for HT came up. Crown finds it fascinating that people are starting to use those amps for home stereo systems. Since they were designed for the low end portable/dj market they can't imagine why anyone would use it for HT. In fact since the XLS amps have become such a demand they have a new line of class D amps (they are calling them class "I" after the new I-drive stuff) that will be getting HT certified because of the demand seen for the XLS amps. And the new stuff - wow set money aside now - is all I'm saying.

Also of note the new D class amps (the E series ) from Lab Gruppen. 1200 watts of power in a single rack space amp that weights 8lbs and cost about $600!

Gordon

Trust me if you had any long term Crown guys there (in the mid 40's or older) they would most likely remember Crowns foray with the PS series into the Consumer market.

Regardless of how many D/PS, Macro/Micro, Reference series sat in mastering studios across the US. Crown was never going to get a fair shake from likes of Stereophile.

Some people want to disregard the 50 years of institutional knowledge an outfit like Crown has. They produce everything from a cheap $299 Class D amp to solutions just getting started at $6K.

While never dismissing that Crown makes product for a non-consumer market I never gelled with the notion that engineers at companies like Parasound/Krell/Bryston etc arrived in Limos and the engineers at Crown arrived in school buses.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Regardless of how many D/PS, Macro/Micro, Reference series sat in mastering studios across the US. Crown was never going to get a fair shake from likes of Stereophile.

[snip]

While never dismissing that Crown makes product for a non-consumer market I never gelled with the notion that engineers at companies like Parasound/Krell/Bryston etc arrived in Limos and the engineers at Crown arrived in school buses.

Does it matter what Stereophile says? How many people in the high-end HT market even know that Stereophile exists? The entire high-end audio market is and has always been low volume.

As for the Crowns, as I've mentioned before, I'm looking very forward to Gene's testing, because looking at the XLS series, the subject of so many recent posts, other than physical weight and sheer output power the specs are quite unimpressive. The Macro-Tech i series has somewhat better specs, but, again, other than power and weight they are nothing to brag about, and in the high-end audio market the Macro-Tech has other drawbacks. The M-Ts are comparatively ugly, they have level controls that audiophiles associate with lower sound quality (yeah dumb, but true), and they are quite expensive (the MA 5000i goes for about $4500), and Crown marketing collateral talks about road ruggedness and applications for sound reinforcement. Audiophiles are not going to be impressed by that stuff.

And of course Harman itself does nothing to further Crown's cause. Lexicon (and Levinson in one case) out-source their multi-channel amps rather than use Crown technology. I'm not sure what that's indicative of, perhaps nothing more than corporate politics, but it's indicative of something. Selling ATI designs at massive mark-ups is dumb.

 

[jinjuku]

Does it matter what Stereophile says? How many people in the high-end HT market even know that Stereophile exists? The entire high-end audio market is and has always been low volume.

As for the Crowns, as I've mentioned before, I'm looking very forward to Gene's testing, because looking at the XLS series, the subject of so many recent posts, other than physical weight and sheer output power the specs are quite unimpressive.

We aren't talking about $20K setups here. Advice in this regard has to be tempered by it's intended use.

The Macro-Tech i series has somewhat better specs, but, again, other than power and weight they are nothing to brag about.

How do you know?. Sorry but that is a perfectly valid question to ask. As Gene rightly points out it is not all about specs.

In the high-end audio market the Macro-Tech has other drawbacks. The M-Ts are comparatively ugly

Honestly I get tired of seeing a Stereo setup were you have L/R speakers with amps on granite slabs and the electronics in the middle with specifically installed accent lighting directed down on them. And firehoses for the entire 8 watts they run it at 99% of the time. You want to impress me? Put that stuff in a rack that isn't nested directly in your sound field. You have purchased that equipment as to show how big your phalic is.

they have level controls that audiophiles associate with lower sound quality (yeah dumb, but true)

Agreed and that is squarely an audiophiles problem.

They are quite expensive (the MA 5000i goes for about $4500)

That is entirely irrelative and a non sequitur. Heck it's not even a fact (other than it costs $4500, that's a fact).

Crown marketing collateral talks about road ruggedness and applications for sound reinforcement. Audiophiles are not going to be impressed by that stuff.

Whoa, whoa, whoa there. Hang on a minute. Did you even stop by Crowns website and read their marketing blurb? I'll lend a hand here see the attached pic.

If you want to argue that 112dB SNR is some how sub-par I would like to see you make that argument.

And of course Harman itself does nothing to further Crown's cause. Lexicon (and Levinson in one case) out-source their multi-channel amps rather than use Crown technology. I'm not sure what that's indicative of, perhaps nothing more than corporate politics, but it's indicative of something. Selling ATI designs at massive mark-ups is dumb.

A bit disingenuous. Crown does manufacture some Levinson stuff. Also there may already be manufacturing deals in place. Conjecture at best.

 

[Gordonj]

Trust me if you had any long term Crown guys there (in the mid 40's or older) they would most likely remember Crowns foray with the PS series into the Consumer market.

Regardless of how many D/PS, Macro/Micro, Reference series sat in mastering studios across the US. Crown was never going to get a fair shake from likes of Stereophile.

Some people want to disregard the 50 years of institutional knowledge an outfit like Crown has. They produce everything from a cheap $299 Class D amp to solutions just getting started at $6K.

And your point is?

They were in their 40's and I have known for many years. I too remember the PS series and all the other series of Crown that you mentioned and many more. The point of my post was in comparing amplifiers from pro to consumer is like comparing apples to oranges. And the manufactures know that as well.

Why does Lexicon or Levinson out source amp sections? Not sure, it could have something to do with a different market places then Crown and the fact that this Harmon world is just now starting to gel together. I would imagine in the near future you will start seeing a lot more cross-polination within the Harmon world, we are just now starting to see the real gel in the pro world...

Gordon

 

[jinjuku]

And your point is?

They were in their 40's and I have known for many years. I too remember the PS series and all the other series of Crown that you mentioned and many more.

Point was the irony of Crown having went into the home market before and getting a bit rebuffed by print magazines is now seeing their product used for unintended HT and Home Audio. That in an online world where print magazines have lost their sway in light of consumers direct ability to post about it.

That's all. I would have a good chuckle if I was a long time Crown guy reading a site like AVS/HTS/AH/PETT etc and seeing people find value in Crown for the home once again while totally by-passing the print publications. The sentiment being that maybe people were misled those years ago.

 

[jinjuku]

For anyone that would like to read about some of Crowns technology here is their PDF on the I class of amplification.

This is aimed squarely at weight and fidelity. A question that I have yet to see any of the naysayers even approach is why would Crown produce a topology that behaves like Class A amplification in that there is no cross over distortion. I mean it's a pro-amp for petes sake why even bother to go through this extreme?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And of course Harman itself does nothing to further Crown's cause. Lexicon (and Levinson in one case) out-source their multi-channel amps rather than use Crown technology. I'm not sure what that's indicative of, perhaps nothing more than corporate politics, but it's indicative of something. Selling ATI designs at massive mark-ups is dumb.

Good for me!

I like knowing that my ATI are essentially Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, & Theta Digital.

-123dB SNR 20Hz-20kHz, -100dB Crosstalk 20Hz-20kHz, 0.03% THD Rated Power 20Hz-20kHz. Oh, yeah.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think The Audio Critic & Peter Aczel did pro amps a huge huge favor by saying pro amps are a fantastic value and sound just like any high dollar amp like Bryston.

 

[Irvrobinson]

How do you know?. Sorry but that is a perfectly valid question to ask. As Gene rightly points out it is not all about specs.

I was only discussing the specs.

I get tired of seeing a Stereo setup were you have L/R speakers with amps on granite slabs and the electronics in the middle with specifically installed accent lighting directed down on them. And firehoses for the entire 8 watts they run it at 99% of the time. You want to impress me? Put that stuff in a rack that isn't nested directly in your sound field. You have purchased that equipment as to show how big your phalic is.

Cool off. I was discussing the audiophile market, where appearances do matter, and that's what my comment referred to. Nice appearance does not necessarily have to cost more, as GranteedEV so aptly pointed out with his example of Face Audio amplifiers. I suppose my judgement of the M-Ts being ugly is an opinion, but I don't think I'm reaching very far comparing it other audiophile amps in that price range. Frankly, I'm not looking to impress you at all, as I use an ugly ATI amp with 1980's Adcom cosmetics, but the market for consumer $4500 amplifiers does appear to value appearance.

, whoa, whoa there. Hang on a minute. Did you even stop by Crowns website and read their marketing blurb? I'll lend a hand here see the attached pic.

If you want to argue that 112dB SNR is some how sub-par I would like to see you make that argument.

Of course I've read Crown's material! Looking at the web page at the moment in another tab, for one thing the full power SNR of the M-T i-series is listed at 108db below full power, not -112db, and "Rugged construction ensures that all Macro-Techs are built to endure years of abuse on the road." Even the regular Macro-Tech series is "perfect for touring", and incidentally does not sport the -112db SNR you're quoting either. (Not that I think the difference is significant, only that you are accusing me of not accurately representing Crown's information.) The regular M-T series also sports a compression circuit, which means nothing to me but is sure to rub audiophiles the wrong way that worry about the inclusion of level controls.

A bit disingenuous. Crown does manufacture some Levinson stuff. Also there may already be manufacturing deals in place. Conjecture at best.

Conjecture perhaps, but really good conjecture, especially with the Lexicon RX7 and ZX7.

 

[jinjuku]

but the market for consumer $4500 amplifiers does appear to value appearance.

But we aren't talking about THAT market. I tend to keep my electronics out of the way. Their performance and not the cosmetic are what matters to me and to others.

Look you can purchase a $400K Ferrari or a $70K Ariel Atom that will kick the snot out of it in the purely performance metric.

The person that is going to buy the Ferrari and the person that is going to buy the Atom are not the same market. They are indeed after different things. One doesn't invalidate the other.

Of course I've read Crown's material! Looking at the web page at the moment in another tab, for one thing the full power SNR of the M-T i-series is listed at 108db below full power, not -112db, and "Rugged construction ensures that all Macro-Techs are built to endure years of abuse on the road." Even the regular Macro-Tech series is "perfect for touring", and incidentally does not sport the -112db SNR you're quoting either. (Not that I think the difference is significant, only that you are accusing me of not accurately representing Crown's information.) The regular M-T series also sports a compression circuit, which means nothing to me but is sure to rub audiophiles the wrong way that worry about the inclusion of level controls.

Crown makes variants of the MacroTech line. Anywhere from 108SNR to 112. Take your pick. Still waiting for any argument that these are problematic to SQ.

Honestly we aren't discussing audiophiles (in the worst term of the phrase here). We are talking more about people just trying some non-consumer oriented gear out.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...does not sport the -112db SNR...Not that I think the difference is significant...

Gene might think it's significant.

I mean assuming we compare 2 amps with the same testing methodology and all - apples to apples. If one amp is -112dB SNR @ 1kHz, and one amp is -123dB SNR 20Hz-20kHz (ATI), Gene might think it's significant.

Or one amp has a XTalk of -70dB @ 1kHz/ -50dB @ 20kHz, while one amp has a XTalk of -120dB @ 1kHz/ -100dB @ 20kHz. Apples to apples. Gene might think it's significant?

But, of course, the audible significance is debatable among us.

Most of us may not think it is significant at all between -100dB SNR & -130dB SNR.

 

[jinjuku]

Gene might think it's significant.

I mean assuming we compare 2 amps with the same testing methodology and all - apples to apples. If one amp is -112dB SNR @ 1kHz, and one amp is -123dB SNR 20Hz-20kHz (ATI), Gene might think it's significant.

Or one amp has a XTalk of -70dB @ 1kHz/ -50dB @ 20kHz, while one amp has a XTalk of -120dB @ 1kHz/ -100dB @ 20kHz. Apples to apples. Gene might think it's significant?

But, of course, the audible significance is debatable among us.

Most of us may not think it is significant at all between -100dB SNR & -130dB SNR.

Questions is:

What is more than adequate?

 

[Irvrobinson]

But we aren't talking about THAT market.

Well, you fooled me, as you were the one that brought up Stereophile attention. Anyway, what other consumers buy $4K+ amps?

Crown makes variants of the MacroTech line. Anywhere from 108SNR to 112. Take your pick. Still waiting for any argument that these are problematic to SQ.

I have yet to see what a data sheet on their web site for any variant of the M-T that mentions -112db, but whatever. As for the Crown's SNR affecting sound quality, we can't know from their specs, since, on the 2402, for example, they quote SNR as 100db below full rated power. As Gene pointed out (and Nelson Pass too), it's the first watt that counts for stuff like that. And audibility is also speaker-dependent, but you know that.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Most of us may not think it is significant at all between -100dB SNR & -130dB SNR.

Perhaps, but the difference between -75db at 1W and -90db at 1W may be quite audible if your speakers have a sensitivity rating of >96db/2.83v/1M.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Questions is:

What is more than adequate?

That's a trick question. We'll let Gene answer that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Perhaps, but the difference between -75db at 1W and -90db at 1W may be quite audible if your speakers have a sensitivity rating of >96db/2.83v/1M.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a SNR of -75dB.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a SNR of -75dB.

And this is an area where amps have dramatically improved over the years. In the 1980s and early 1990s it was commonplace to see unweighted SNRs at 1W come in at about -75db, often worse. Today you see unweighted measurements in the -85db to -95db range at 1W. (I don't know for sure, but I've suspected this improvement is due to superior ICs available for the initial amplification stage.) I think these differences can be audible, which is one reason why I'm looking forward to Gene's measurements.

 

[jinjuku]

I have yet to see what a data sheet on their web site for any variant of the M-T that mentions -112db, but whatever.

Sorry, I should have said I-Tech. The MacroTech is 108dB.