Amp for ER18s?

[mattsk8]

Hypothetically speaking , if I were to shop up a preamp/pwr amp combo, what would I look for to power my ER18s once they're done? What kind of power output would be nominal for these?

Also, amps and preamps for home audio are pretty foreign to me. I understand how they do what they do completely, but I know you have to overlook the pro-audio amps while searching. Used would be waaaay better. I even noticed the Yamaha amp in the classifieds here, but it seems kind of steep at $450. I've looked at a couple Carvers on ebay- specifically the TFM-15cb. Would that be a good choice??

What should I look for? Years? Makes/models? Power output?

 

[mattsk8]

Since I got no replies, I'll keep it simple. What kind of power do I want from an amp for the ER18s???

 

[jinjuku]

Also, amps and preamps for home audio are pretty foreign to me. I understand how they do what they do completely, but I know you have to overlook the pro-audio amps while searching.

Who sold you that bill of goods on Pro-audio amps? Using Crown on my Statements and actually sold both my Parasounds because they were too noisy compared to the Crown. They actually drove me nuts.

Look at the Yamaha P2500. Guitar Center has a July4th Promo of 15% (*I don't know if the Yamaha will apply). The P2500 would be a perfect match.

Pick up a Pro-Audio mastering interface from Avid, M-Audio, Focusrite, Appogee, Lexicon, Pre-sonus etc. Look on Craigslist for them. Someone is always selling one and taking a big hit.

 

[capricious]

I think someone else also asked the same question elsewhere, and the answer was that ER18 doesn't require a lot of power, but can definitely handle more power. I would think a good 50w is more than sufficient. I'd look for a used adcom/yamaha/rotel/NAD on craigslist or audiogon. I have a yamaha rx-a3000 that i plan on using with ER18. Should be a good match. They are rated at about 140w x 2, but these are receiver ratings. I also have a yaqin hybrid integrated that sounds very very good (70wx2). I bought that on ebay for $299+shipping. I currently have a pair of selah SSRs that are rated at 84db and ER18 is going to be an easier load than that.

 

[mattsk8]

Thanks for the replies!

Who sold you that bill of goods on Pro-audio amps? Using Crown on my Statements and actually sold both my Parasounds because they were too noisy compared to the Crown. They actually drove me nuts.

Look at the Yamaha P2500. Guitar Center has a July4th Promo of 15% (*I don't know if the Yamaha will apply). The P2500 would be a perfect match.

Pick up a Pro-Audio mastering interface from Avid, M-Audio, Focusrite, Appogee, Lexicon, Pre-sonus etc. Look on Craigslist for them. Someone is always selling one and taking a big hit.

It wasn't necessarily any one person, I just gathered that based on looking for pro-audio equipment for that church system. These amps are all so weird. There's integrated (which I was leaning toward just so I didn't need a processor), then a million different options for amps.

As far as the separate amps go, it just seems like there are weird spikes in power output. From 100 watts/ch to 5000 watts. Coming from either strictly home audio receivers or car audio amps, I don't know how much I can rely on the stated power output of any of these or even what I should look for. Could I get a 5000 watt amp w/ a processor and turn the gains waaaaay down; just know that I have about 35 times the "headroom" that I need ??

Also, I'm guessing you move up in quality w/ separate amps and a processor verses using an integrated amp? Or is that not so? Cuz to me the integrated amp seems to make the most sense. I really like that Carver TFM-15cb. There's one on Ebay for about $230 right now, and also one in PE classified. That would be 140 watts/ch at 4 ohms. Good idea/bad idea??

 

[jinjuku]

I don't know about that particular Carver. I have owned Carver in the past and as long as it wasn't one of Bob's crazy design ideas I was fine with it.

There is as much weirdness (or more) in the home audiophile sector of amplification than pro-audio.

The last PartExpress GTG they drove everything with a Crown Comtech, prior to that (and the one I attended) it was Hafler. No one seemed to complain.

I would pick up the HK 3490 before I would that Carver. The HK is new/warrantied, it has a good bit more head room, it has bass management, and a remote. I wouldn't touch that Carver for $230.

 

[mattsk8]

I don't know about that particular Carver. I have owned Carver in the past and as long as it wasn't one of Bob's crazy design ideas I was fine with it.

There is as much weirdness (or more) in the home audiophile sector of amplification than pro-audio.

The last PartExpress GTG they drove everything with a Crown Comtech, prior to that (and the one I attended) it was Hafler. No one seemed to complain.

I would pick up the HK 3490 before I would that Carver. The HK is new/warrantied, it has a good bit more head room, it has bass management, and a remote. I wouldn't touch that Carver for $230.

I think I will get that HK. There's a manufacturer refurbished one on ebay for $299 w/ free shipping. Just the "thanks" button wasn't enough! Really appreciate the input!!!

FYI, I already have a good Denon CD player. Considering a record player but I don't know if I want to go there, those things are sooooo expensive in every aspect!

 

[jinjuku]

I think I will get that HK. There's a manufacturer refurbished one on ebay for $299 w/ free shipping. Just the "thanks" button wasn't enough! Really appreciate the input!!!

FYI, I already have a good Denon CD player. Considering a record player but I don't know if I want to go there, those things are sooooo expensive in every aspect!

I would get a streamer and dump the CDP.

 

[mattsk8]

I would get a streamer and dump the CDP.

You have my interest for sure. I've looked into a converter for the ipod but was told there's no good way to get cd quality from either streamed or mp3 (ipod) music; that no matter what it didn't compair. I do have internet access via a router where this is all going, and have (lets just say a LOT) of music on an external HD.

That said, I did some searching and came up empty. What's a streamer?

 

[Swerd]

The ER18 MTM impedance profile and power requirements are similar to the Salk SongTower and HT2-TL. They are rather easy to drive. Their impedance goes as low as 4 ohms, but not lower. Dennis says any amp or receiver that delivers at least an honest 50 wpc when rated at 8 ohms can drive these 4 ohm speakers. Greater power will benefit you by producing better control over the bass. Under 50 wpc can drive them, but the bass tended to sound a little sloppier.

When I heard the original prototype, Dennis drove it with an old Hafler DH-200 or 220 that had been rebuilt by Audio by Van Alstine. It was plenty powerful. As rebuilt, it was rated at 125 wpc at 8 ohms, and could easily drive speakers that dipped below 3 ohms.

So when it comes to selecting an amp for these speakers, you have a lot of choices. Personally, I'd look for a used amp in the 120 to 200 wpc range. Adcom, Rotel, NAD, B&K, ATI, Parasound, Yamaha, Denon come to mind, just to name a few.

If you find an old Hafler DH-200, DH-220, or XL-280, snap it up. But there are many other amps available used that will do well.

 

[mattsk8]

The ER18 MTM impedance profile and power requirements are similar to the Salk SongTower and HT2-TL. They are rather easy to drive. Their impedance goes as low as 4 ohms, but not lower. Dennis says any amp or receiver that delivers at least an honest 50 wpc when rated at 8 ohms can drive these 4 ohm speakers. Greater power will benefit you by producing better control over the bass. Under 50 wpc can drive them, but the bass tended to sound a little sloppier.

When I heard the original prototype, Dennis drove it with an old Hafler DH-200 or 220 that had been rebuilt by Audio by Van Alstine. It was plenty powerful. As rebuilt, it was rated at 125 wpc at 8 ohms, and could easily drive speakers that dipped below 3 ohms.

So when it comes to selecting an amp for these speakers, you have a lot of choices. Personally, I'd look for a used amp in the 120 to 200 wpc range. Adcom, Rotel, NAD, B&K, ATI, Parasound, Yamaha, Denon come to mind, just to name a few.

If you find an old Hafler DH-200, DH-220, or XL-280, snap it up. But there are many other amps available used that will do well.

I have a Pioneer SX-950 classicaudio.com..... Valuation..... Pioneer SX-950 It seems to have a lot of kahoonys for only being 85/ch. I have some monkey coffins w/ 15" woofers and it drives those almost too good (the ER18s will be replacing those). Should I stick w/ this? I love the looks of it, was just looking for a new one cuz I'm assuming the new amps/receivers sound better- but I may be way off too To me, this one does the job pretty well!

 

[jinjuku]

If you get a Hafler make sure it has been rebuilt.

The HK is WAY more than adequate and has the power supply for 4 ohm loads and driving north of 200WPC.

Even my former Parasound HCA 1000A's are not going to do any better than the 3490.

The difference between the 3490 and an integrated amp? The integrated amp will take features away from you while charging twice the $$.

 

[Tieftoener]

Did you get the HK? Curious to see what you ended up with and your thoughts...

 

[WiseG]

Have you tryed Onkyo TX-NR809

 

[mattsk8]

I haven't, to both questions. I'm going to finish these up tonight and see how they do on the good ol Pioneer SX-950. If I'm dissatisfied, I'll move on from there

 

[mattsk8]

The Pioneer is a turd. I think I could be happy w/ it, but I'm having problems w/ the RCA outs on the back. On the aux input, the right channel is weak because of a bad connection. I already went through the thing and cleaned it all up and I can probably fix it, but I'm not feeling overly ambitious and I'm almost positive a new amp would sound better.

I'm in the market for a new amp/preamp or receiver. Right now I'm leaning towards jinjuku's recommendation for the HK receiver because it seems like the best, most cost effective option. Time to save some coin.

Have you tryed Onkyo TX-NR809

I won't go this route because this is strictly music and I don't want to pay for the HT part of it.

 

[KEW]

In case you missed it, here's a review of the HK 3490:
harman/kardon HK 3490 Stereo Receiver Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Note that the actual measurements from the review completely blow away HK own published specs

As someone who has "been there done that" I think you'd be wise to get the HK. It is an impressive stereo receiver that is fair competition for a separate power amp with same power rating.

If you keep the Pioneer, you should have someone qualified give it a full inspection/rebuild.
I had my old Integrated amp completely overhauled (which cost more than the $550 I paid for it back in ~'78). Because it was such a fixture in my life for so many years, I don't want to part with it.
While it is a great amp, and performs as good as any amp, it is still:
1) only 85WPC
2) inefficient by today's design standards (extra heat generated)
3) no processing options
4) can't input a digital signal
5) No subwoofer outputs

I'm still waffling on whether or not I really want to use it or retire it and that is after spending the money to bring it up to (actually, a little better than) original specs.

HTH

PS - If money is tight, Harmon Kardon sells their refurbs via ebay seller Harmonaudio with full warranty:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harman-Kardon-HK-3490-Z-2-x-120W-per-channel-Stereo-Receiver-/390444982030?pt=US_Stereo_Receivers&hash=item5ae8559f0e
I'm not sure if 3490's are always available or not.

 

[mattsk8]

As someone who has "been there done that" I think you'd be wise to get the HK. It is an impressive stereo receiver that is fair competition for a separate power amp with same power rating.

If you keep the Pioneer, you should have someone qualified give it a full inspection/rebuild.
I had my old Integrated amp completely overhauled (which cost more than the $550 I paid for it back in ~'78). Because it was such a fixture in my life for so many years, I don't want to part with it.
While it is a great amp, and performs as good as any amp, it is still:
1) only 85WPC
2) inefficient by today's design standards (extra heat generated)
3) no processing options
4) can't input a digital signal
5) No subwoofer outputs

I'm still waffling on whether or not I really want to use it or retire it and that is after spending the money to bring it up to (actually, a little better than) original specs.

HTH

PS - If money is tight, Harmon Kardon sells their refurbs via ebay seller Harmonaudio with full warranty:
Harman Kardon HK 3490 -Z 2 x 120W per channel Stereo Receiver 028292506451 | eBay
I'm not sure if 3490's are always available or not.

I totally know where you're coming from. I love the looks of the Pioneer, and the sound. I just know I'll get more from a new amp. It's one of those things I'll never use, but also never get rid of. Maybe I'll let my 13 year old son use it.

As far as money goes, 4 kids and a stay at home wife means it's always tight. I did find a place that sells new ones for $299 that aren't refurbed.

Another option I'm concidering is a used Yamaha R 9. It's circa 1985ish. What do you guys think? Bad idea? just save the extra coin and get the HK? I might be able to pick it up for around $150 shipped (hopefully). I've just always been fond of Yamaha.

Here's what I found so far, a link to some reveiws and a quote from a recent page I read...

How's the R9 receiver?

"Yamaha R-9 (1983-1984): Not really much to look at, except for the bright red displays, but the $900.00 TOTL Yamaha from 1985 had something no other Receiver has ever had, a true Class-A amplifier!

Yamaha called it "Auto Class A" since it was only good for 30 wpc RMS max and, beyond that, would automatically convert to a conventional Class A/B output up to its rated 125 wpc RMS. However, be warned, when in Auto Class A mode, the R-9 can run very hot.

I must profess that I am not a big fan of the "Yamaha Natural Sound", which lacks critical detail to my ears. However, you can clearly hear the difference when the R-9 is in Class A mode. The music is sumptuously detailed indeed and is rich and full in comparison to the ordinary Class AB mode.

The tuner section on the R-9 also bears comment. It is in fact two tuner sections, one with a Quartz Synthesizer and the other with an analog comparator. I must admit that I am quite impressed with the Yammie's ability to track difficult stations.

But, oh what a pleasure those 30 Class-A watts are! But, be careful, the R-9 can be a stove."

 

[KEW]

If you are talking buying used, I would be wary!

As stated at the end of your post:

the R-9 can be a stove

So now you are talking a 27 year old unit which is known to produce high levels of heat (enemy number one to electronics) and you have no idea how hard it has been driven! I just wouldn't risk old gear unless you know the history (and it has really been babied) or have a guy who can give it a proper ($$$) overhaul!

It seems you believe you will get a different (better) sound via a certain mystique afforded by older gear!? An amp's only function is to increase the signal amplitude without adding or subtracting from the original signal. Amplification is a mature science - manufacturers know how to do it properly and cheaply.
The only ways to really lose on buying an amp/receiver today are:
1) Not getting the features and controls you want/need
2) Buying a true piece of crap (some of the Pyle home amplifiers come to mind)
3) Buying used equipment which has been compromised by age/heat
4) Not buying enough power so the amp begins distorting as it's limits are exceeded

For me item 3 is daunting because there is no way to determine if the amp is sounding as good as it should unless you can AB it against another (which is a difficult task - I tried using two identical pairs of speakers and came to the conclusion that I was hearing the difference from my speakers not being in the exact same position rather than a difference between amps)

HTH

The HK is a known quantity (thanks to the AH review with comprehensive measurements). Several of us think it is a sweet spot of power/features/cost.
However, any competent manufacturer makes a good amp.

If you like Yamaha and have a hankering for the vintage look, maybe you'd like one of these:
Yamaha R-S700 Stereo Receiver

Yamaha definitely makes good gear.

 

[mattsk8]

Thanks for the input. It wasn't about getting better from vintage, it was more about trying to save some money. I'll skip the old R9 and move forward. I think I like the HK better, but that Yamaha S700 is pretty sharp. Just seems the HK has a little more bang for a bit less buck.