The Empire goes on strike

[j_garcia]

Looks like they sent me the wrong amp...

 

[Adam]

Looks like they sent me the wrong amp...

A better one, hopefully? Yeah, probably not. Dang.

 

[ahblaza]

Looks like they sent me the wrong amp...

John, how could they do that, unless they stock replacement amps for discontined products, the only two subs they sell are the Empire and Legend? Chad got back to me about the heat from the Legend and said this was normal and could handle a lot more, said the Legend is their best selling sub ever and have a less than 1% failure rate......

 

[TLS Guy]

John, how could they do that, unless they stock replacement amps for discontined products, the only two subs they sell are the Empire and Legend? Chad got back to me about the heat from the Legend and said this was normal and could handle a lot more, said the Legend is their best selling sub ever and have a less than 1% failure rate......

Tell Chad to pull the other one.

Unless Chad has invented a new class of solid state devices, then heat is the enemy of his products.


No one in electronics has a failure rate of 1%. The guy is a liar and I'll stand by that.

 

[j_garcia]

My guess is they sent me an amp for the Legend not the Empire, because it is about half the size of my amp. A miscommunication I am sure.

 

[Rickster71]

Tell Chad to pull the other one.

Unless Chad has invented a new class of solid state devices, then heat is the enemy of his products.


No one in electronics has a failure rate of 1%. The guy is a liar and I'll stand by that.

I can't believe more plate amps didn't have cooling fins.

 

[timoteo]

Or at least better heat sinks!!!!

I've read that Epik & Earthquake Sound use the same company for their amps. I used to own 2 Earthquake subs. Guess what, both of those amps had no external heat sinks, both amps got very hot to the touch (even very warm in standby) & within 6 months of buying them 1 of the amps failed. Once that happened & that I found out about Epik using the same amps I started believing all the negative hype I was hearing about Epik's failure rate.

It's too bad too because most owners of Epik subs seem very happy with their performance...up until the amps fail!!

 

[ahblaza]

Tell Chad to pull the other one.

Unless Chad has invented a new class of solid state devices, then heat is the enemy of his products.


No one in electronics has a failure rate of 1%. The guy is a liar and I'll stand by that.

Mark thanks for the eye opener, I feel like I'm in between a rock and a hard place, Chad just addressed the heat issue as if it were a normal thing, I can understand being warm but hot is another issue all together. I really don't know what to do at this point, the sub is over a year old, I was going to sell it but I have too much integrity to pawn this off to someone else. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks....
Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

My guess is they sent me an amp for the Legend not the Empire, because it is about half the size of my amp. A miscommunication I am sure.

John, in my case there is very little communication period...........

 

[ahblaza]

Or at least better heat sinks!!!!

I've read that Epik & Earthquake Sound use the same company for their amps. I used to own 2 Earthquake subs. Guess what, both of those amps had no external heat sinks, both amps got very hot to the touch (even very warm in standby) & within 6 months of buying them 1 of the amps failed. Once that happened & that I found out about Epik using the same amps I started believing all the negative hype I was hearing about Epik's failure rate.

It's too bad too because most owners of Epik subs seem very happy with their performance...up until the amps fail!!

Timo, you hit the nail on the head Brother............

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

External amps rule!

 

[ahblaza]

External amps rule!

I hear that............

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark thanks for the eye opener, I feel like I'm in between a rock and a hard place, Chad just addressed the heat issue as if it were a normal thing, I can understand being warm but hot is another issue all together. I really don't know what to do at this point, the sub is over a year old, I was going to sell it but I have too much integrity to pawn this off to someone else. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks....
Jeff

Difficult question!

By the testimony here, there is something very wrong with the design of those Epik amps.

If the amps get warm on standby that proves the point. In a properly deigned Class D amp, the quiescent current should be close to zero. Efficiency should be 90% at least. The whole point of class D is that they are MOSFET switching amps, so they remain cool. They really have nothing in common with class A and A/B amps in their topography.

They are however very hard to design and for best results should be designed integral with the drivers. Best results are achieved with a design for a specific impedance curve.

My guess is that they are using generic amps, and the two woofer load is presenting an impedance the amps are not designed for.

In their advert they claim these amps run cool because of their class D design. That should be the case, but appears not to be with these subs.

To answer your question, you could remove the amp and block off the cut out hole and use an external amp.

With a spec of a 3.5 db point of 20 Hz I suspect that there must be some Eq starting at some point, probably in the neighborhood of 40 Hz. There should also be a subsonic filter at around 25 Hz. May be there is no subsonic filter to save money, which may be part of the problem, as impedance of sealed drivers usually drops significantly below the single impedance peak, and that may be compounding problems here, if a subsonic filter has been omitted.

I have to say I'm very underwhelmed by the design of most commercial sub offerings. Unless you go for the higher end, you should go DIY all the way with subs.

 

[ahblaza]

Difficult question!

By the testimony here, there is something very wrong with the design of those Epik amps.

If the amps get warm on standby that proves the point. In a properly deigned Class D amp, the quiescent current should be close to zero. Efficiency should be 90% at least. The whole point of class D is that they are MOSFET switching amps, so they remain cool. They really have nothing in common with class A and A/B amps in their topography.

They are however very hard to design and for best results should be designed integral with the drivers. Best results are achieved with a design for a specific impedance curve.

My guess is that they are using generic amps, and the two woofer load is presenting an impedance the amps are not designed for.

In their advert they claim these amps run cool because of their class D design. That should be the case, but appears not to be with these subs.

To answer your question, you could remove the amp and block off the cut out hole and use an external amp.

With a spec of a 3.5 db point of 20 Hz I suspect that there must be some Eq starting at some point, probably in the neighborhood of 40 Hz. There should also be a subsonic filter at around 25 Hz. May be there is no subsonic filter to save money, which may be part of the problem, as impedance of sealed drivers usually drops significantly below the single impedance peak, and that may be compounding problems here, if a subsonic filter has been omitted.

I have to say I'm very underwhelmed by the design of most commercial sub offerings. Unless you go for the higher end, you should go DIY all the way with subs.

Mark, I agree with everything you say, I also thought Class D was effecient and should run cool, I don't think 300 watts is enough for two twelve " drivers especially as you say the dual woofer impedance, this amp is not designed for. Chad insists that this is normal as the heat sinks are right against the amp plate (hogwash), the sub is still under warranty, and I've heard that Epik does have newly designed amps, but in my case according to Chad my amp is fine. I'm going to pull the drivers out and measure the DC resistance across them and record it and then ask Epik what these values should be, I don't see any other course of action at this point, as far as DIY I'm lost......
Jeff

 

[timoteo]

Something to remember too is that not all amps NEED heat sinks. For instance, both of my HSU subs have small internal sinks (I've looked) but NO external sinks. However, in standby mode they are literally cool or cold, after an explosive movie at say -3dB from reference I've gone & checked them both & they are BARELY warm.

Like I mentioned, I have taken a look inside both subs & looking at the back of the amps they are honestly very modest in appearance, but because they are properly designed using the long time proven BASH technology, they work as they are supposed to.

Having owned different equipment throughout my time in the HT world I have owned a few components that got VERY hot...receivers, sub amps, TVs etc. Heat is one of the WORST enemies of any electronic piece. It has actually become a pre-requisit to my purchases, if it's known to get hot I move on to the next, it's just not worth the headache.

I hate hearing of these issues & I feel for those having to deal with them. Few things are as frustrating as having a piece of gear cr@p out on you. It's even worse when the issue isn't resolved quickly. I can at least attest to Earthquake Sound & their customer service. I had my amp fixed & returned within 7-10 days & my buddy who has the sub is still using it to this day. I hope Epik starts "communicating" better & gets you your amp ASAP!!!

I don't think I would recommend going with an external amp on the Epiks though. Other subs, possibly, but Epik has a curve on their amps that makes their sealed design act a little more like a ported sub to give it more extension. I would try to get the amp designed for the sub. I know all sealed subs have a curve to the amp but I have read that Epik uses a more agressive approach.

 

[ahblaza]

Something to remember too is that not all amps NEED heat sinks. For instance, both of my HSU subs have small internal sinks (I've looked) but NO external sinks. However, in standby mode they are literally cool or cold, after an explosive movie at say -3dB from reference I've gone & checked them both & they are BARELY warm.

Like I mentioned, I have taken a look inside both subs & looking at the back of the amps they are honestly very modest in appearance, but because they are properly designed using the long time proven BASH technology, they work as they are supposed to.

Having owned different equipment throughout my time in the HT world I have owned a few components that got VERY hot...receivers, sub amps, TVs etc. Heat is one of the WORST enemies of any electronic piece. It has actually become a pre-requisit to my purchases, if it's known to get hot I move on to the next, it's just not worth the headache.

I hate hearing of these issues & I feel for those having to deal with them. Few things are as frustrating as having a piece of gear cr@p out on you. It's even worse when the issue isn't resolved quickly. I can at least attest to Earthquake Sound & their customer service. I had my amp fixed & returned within 7-10 days & my buddy who has the sub is still using it to this day. I hope Epik starts "communicating" better & gets you your amp ASAP!!!

I don't think I would recommend going with an external amp on the Epiks though. Other subs, possibly, but Epik has a curve on their amps that makes their sealed design act a little more like a ported sub to give it more extension. I would try to get the amp designed for the sub. I know all sealed subs have a curve to the amp but I have read that Epik uses a more agressive approach.

Tim, my Epik amp in standby is also cool but after 20-30 minutes of use it is really hot to the touch, I realize that the amps are designed for the subs as you say, communication is not good and according to Chad the amp is performing as designed, it was not even mentioned to replace my amp, he just said the amp is fine, end of story....I don't know how to proceed, I guess I have to wait for actual failure of the amp and at the amount of heat generated it should not be too long. I also don't think going with external amp is an option especially since it is still under warranty, I know that Epik has improved versions of their plate amps, as I was an early adopter of the new line of Epik subs and became aware of the amp problems. John's Empire ran cool unlike my Legend and he still experienced failure and then received the wrong replacement amp, how's that for QC and service? Chad, as I mentioned stated the Legend is their best selling sub ever and failure rate of 1%, just as Mark (TLS) said that is a bold face lie. The only way I got Chad to respond to me was to post on the Facebook page, as he did not return calls nor emails. The Facebook page is a plethora of highly satisfied Epik subwoofer owners and Chad is always there responding to their praise of Epik making it look like customer service and QC are the # 1 priority, again HOGWASH. I want a new improved cooler running amp and don't know how to make that happen.....thanks Tim..
Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

From the website: The amplifier in the Legend is an ultra-efficient Class D design, its thick steel face plate and massive aluminum internal heat sink allow it to play clean and stay reliable. This is what Chad explained to me, that because the massive heat sink is attached to face plate is the reason for the heat on the plate and is normal. If the amp is ultra-efficient Class D why is there so much heat, is rated power output of the amp not enough at 300 watts RMS to drive a combined driver surface area of about 18"???? Sorry for all the ranting, at least you guys listen, he does not (Chad)!!!

 

[j_garcia]

Class D amps generally do not have external heat sinks, nor should they need them. I talked to Chad and he said the amps are not up to the quality level that he would like. They are not Epik's design, they are manufactured by another company, so they don't have ultimate control over them. A change in amp vendor will likely be costly now that they are fully integrated, so I am sure it will take time for that to happen, because it sounds like they need a new vendor.

 

[ratm]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I just finished watching Underworld Evolutions at -10 (wife took kids to mall). My Empire was no warmer after than when I started. And it wasnt warm at all when I started.

 

[darien87]

Or at least better heat sinks!!!!

I've read that Epik & Earthquake Sound use the same company for their amps. I used to own 2 Earthquake subs. Guess what, both of those amps had no external heat sinks, both amps got very hot to the touch (even very warm in standby) & within 6 months of buying them 1 of the amps failed. Once that happened & that I found out about Epik using the same amps I started believing all the negative hype I was hearing about Epik's failure rate.

It's too bad too because most owners of Epik subs seem very happy with their performance...up until the amps fail!!

I have no experience with Epik products but one of the first subs I had was an Earthquake 10" about 10 years ago or so. I had an issue with it, (I don't remember what it was), but I drove to their Hayward headquarters since it was near where I worked at the time. I ended up spending about 2 hours there as the owner spoke to me personally about his company, the design of his subs and even took me on a tour of the plant. VERY cool.

I don't even remember what was wrong with the sub anymore but I do remember how I was treated by that man. Great service by a guy that was too high up on the totem pole to be speaking with me directly about my issue.