Stone-Age Videophyte

[bartbrn]

Hi --

I'm new to these forums, and I didn't know quite where this request for advice should go. Please bear with me, as I'm pretty much a digital audio dunce.

I'm 63, and have finally taken the HDTV plunge with a 42" Panasonic Viera (TC-L42E50). I also *have a Comcast-leased Scientific Atlanta Explorer 4250C cable box, and a Roku2 XS (Model # 3100R) streaming box, which will be ethernet-connected to my Apple*AirPort Extreme Base Station, which, in turn, is ethernet-connected to a Comcast-leased Motorola SB5100 Surfboard Cable modem. I will be streaming most of what I'll be watching, as Comcast Cable, the monopoly CATV and ISP we're stuck with, wants $65 for their "Digital Starter Package," which contains HD versions of QVS, the Home Shopping Network, Judge Judy, and very little else. I don't know why our only other CATV/ISP option here in the wilderness of the CT shoreline is satellite, but that's strictly an academic discussion not useful here.

This is a 2-part question:

1. I'm trying to incorporate my HDTV, Logitech Harmony 300 multi-remote, AppleTV, and Roku 2 XS, PLUS the answer to question #2, into my home audio system. However, my home audio system isn't exactly 21st century*: I have a long-in-the tooth but aurally fantastic Denon AVR-3000 Dolby Pro-Logic Surround Receiver from sometime in the 90's (and YES, Logitech DOES have the command set for the AVR-3000, which I've already D/L 'd into the Harmony remote), and, as you might expect, its inputs are pretty much (well, COMPLETELY, actually) analog, and the only audio output from the Panasonic TV is optical (the Roku has a composite RCA to 3.5mm A/V cable, but I can't see where THAT's going to do me any good). I want the output to be from the TV, so even when I'm watching the local access channel or HSN's Zirconium Frenzy on Comcrap, I can still have fairly decent sound -- the speakers on the Viera are its weakest feature. I have procured a co-axial/digital optical DAC that's IEC-60958 S/PDIF compatible, and provides (from the TV's optical out through toslink to the RCA audio ins on my Denon receiver) "up to" 24-bit/192kHz analog audio. I don't see how I can get anything better; if anyone here has a more splendid idea (other than mortgaging the house and buying a new receiver -- I'm on a fixed income and couldn't afford anything decent), please let me know.

2. Speaking of something decent, I've been looking on my usual review/search sites -- whathifi from the UK, and Amazon and C|Net US -- and I have yet to find a Blu-ray player that will do what I want, and NOT do what I DON'T want: all I need is very good video, preferably a box that will do a nice, clean job of upconverting regular DVDs, a drive that loads (and stops) fairly quickly and doesn't sound like a 737 on windup, has a good reputation for reliability, and that's about it.

What I DON'T want: 3D -- I've had amblyopia and mild strabismus from birth, my left eye is farsighted, my right eye is nearsighted, and they cannot focus together. As a result, I cannot perceive 3D, not even through Viewmasters or stereopticons. Remember those eye tests they used to have at Motor Vehicles where you had to identify signs and lights through a 3D viewer? I'd look through the right eye, memorize what I'd seen, then look through the left eye, and put the two together in my head. (time out for a public service message): NOTE to bullies, parents, siblings, caretakers, and jailers of bullies: when someone can't hit, kick, head-butt, or catch a ball, it is not at all an indication that he/she is a hopeless klutz; the number of kids (and adults -- I didn't find out about it until I was in my mid-50s) with undiagnosed amblyopia and strabismus, and resultant impaired spatial perception, is very high. So when you don't get picked for the team, don't feel bad, go to an ophthalmic surgeon -- caught early enough, it can easily be corrected. End of public service message.

So, Blu-ray player: no 3D, no Wi-Fi -- I have Wi-Fi and Ethernet A/V connections up the wazoo, all connected, both wired and wireless, to my Airport Airbase Extreme -- no streaming services (the Roku and AppleTV cover that field pretty well), and a reasonable price.

Any help greatly appreciated!

Bart Brown

*my ancient audio system: besides the Denon Receiver, I also have an Adcom GTP pre-amp, modded Hafler DH-200 and Hafler/Rockford-Fosgate Trans•Ana TA-1100 amps, DCM Time Window 1s, Yamaha center channel speaker, radically-modified Micro-Acoustic FRMs in the rear, and a Rega Planar 3 turntable with Linn Basik arm, Orsonics headshell, and some high-end Audio-Technica MM cartridge stylus.

 

[sholling]

I've read your post 3 times and I still don't completely understand your question . But let's start with the basics. In my opinion that old receiver is going to complicate your life. A newer receiver will include HDMI ports and will act to tie your devices (both audio and video) together and switch between sources. The Roku and the Blu-Ray player (I'm not sure about the cable box) will plug into the receiver via HDMI and the receiver will feed the video to your TV and sound to your speakers. There are great deals to be had on last year's models and factory refurbs so this doesn't need to break the bank. I've had good luck with refurbished Onkyos from Accessories For Less. They have a good price on refurbished Denons as well but I don't have any personal experience with Denon refurbs. Of the two I've linked the AVR-1912 is a very good but somewhat basic receiver while the TX-NR709 has all the bells and whistles but produces enough heat that it needs to be placed where it will have good air circulation. You can get perfectly good HDMI cables (and network cables) dirt cheap ($3-4ea) from Monoprice.com and they're so inexpensive there that I'd get 2-3 extras for spares and to add devices later.

DENON AVR-1912 7.1ch Network A/V Home Theater Receiver w/ Airplay | Accessories4less
Onkyo TX-NR709 7.2-Channel 3-D Ready Network A/V Receiver | Accessories4less

Pretty much any basic name-brand network-ready Blu-Ray player will do what you want for less than $100. One member wrote up his experience with a $69 Sony he found at Costco. As long as you stick with a name brand and it has a network connection for updates you should be good to go. Blu-Ray players need access to periodic updates and that requires a network connection and name brand players (Sony, Panasonic, etc) are much more likely to see regular updates than no-name players. Remember that just because a player has a feature that you don't need doesn't mean that you need to use that feature.

The Harmony remote should control everything just fine but the Roku XS will be more responsive to the Bluetooth remote that comes with it.

If a new receiver isn't an option then connecting everything is going to get more complicated and will need more thinking through.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi --

I'm new to these forums, and I didn't know quite where this request for advice should go. Please bear with me, as I'm pretty much a digital audio dunce.

I'm 63, and have finally taken the HDTV plunge with a 42" Panasonic Viera (TC-L42E50). I also *have a Comcast-leased Scientific Atlanta Explorer 4250C cable box, and a Roku2 XS (Model # 3100R) streaming box, which will be ethernet-connected to my Apple*AirPort Extreme Base Station, which, in turn, is ethernet-connected to a Comcast-leased Motorola SB5100 Surfboard Cable modem. I will be streaming most of what I'll be watching, as Comcast Cable, the monopoly CATV and ISP we're stuck with, wants $65 for their "Digital Starter Package," which contains HD versions of QVS, the Home Shopping Network, Judge Judy, and very little else. I don't know why our only other CATV/ISP option here in the wilderness of the CT shoreline is satellite, but that's strictly an academic discussion not useful here.

This is a 2-part question:

1. I'm trying to incorporate my HDTV, Logitech Harmony 300 multi-remote, AppleTV, and Roku 2 XS, PLUS the answer to question #2, into my home audio system. However, my home audio system isn't exactly 21st century*: I have a long-in-the tooth but aurally fantastic Denon AVR-3000 Dolby Pro-Logic Surround Receiver from sometime in the 90's (and YES, Logitech DOES have the command set for the AVR-3000, which I've already D/L 'd into the Harmony remote), and, as you might expect, its inputs are pretty much (well, COMPLETELY, actually) analog, and the only audio output from the Panasonic TV is optical (the Roku has a composite RCA to 3.5mm A/V cable, but I can't see where THAT's going to do me any good). I want the output to be from the TV, so even when I'm watching the local access channel or HSN's Zirconium Frenzy on Comcrap, I can still have fairly decent sound -- the speakers on the Viera are its weakest feature. I have procured a co-axial/digital optical DAC that's IEC-60958 S/PDIF compatible, and provides (from the TV's optical out through toslink to the RCA audio ins on my Denon receiver) "up to" 24-bit/192kHz analog audio. I don't see how I can get anything better; if anyone here has a more splendid idea (other than mortgaging the house and buying a new receiver -- I'm on a fixed income and couldn't afford anything decent), please let me know.

2. Speaking of something decent, I've been looking on my usual review/search sites -- whathifi from the UK, and Amazon and C|Net US -- and I have yet to find a Blu-ray player that will do what I want, and NOT do what I DON'T want: all I need is very good video, preferably a box that will do a nice, clean job of upconverting regular DVDs, a drive that loads (and stops) fairly quickly and doesn't sound like a 737 on windup, has a good reputation for reliability, and that's about it.

What I DON'T want: 3D -- I've had amblyopia and mild strabismus from birth, my left eye is farsighted, my right eye is nearsighted, and they cannot focus together. As a result, I cannot perceive 3D, not even through Viewmasters or stereopticons. Remember those eye tests they used to have at Motor Vehicles where you had to identify signs and lights through a 3D viewer? I'd look through the right eye, memorize what I'd seen, then look through the left eye, and put the two together in my head. (time out for a public service message): NOTE to bullies, parents, siblings, caretakers, and jailers of bullies: when someone can't hit, kick, head-butt, or catch a ball, it is not at all an indication that he/she is a hopeless klutz; the number of kids (and adults -- I didn't find out about it until I was in my mid-50s) with undiagnosed amblyopia and strabismus, and resultant impaired spatial perception, is very high. So when you don't get picked for the team, don't feel bad, go to an ophthalmic surgeon -- caught early enough, it can easily be corrected. End of public service message.

So, Blu-ray player: no 3D, no Wi-Fi -- I have Wi-Fi and Ethernet A/V connections up the wazoo, all connected, both wired and wireless, to my Airport Airbase Extreme -- no streaming services (the Roku and AppleTV cover that field pretty well), and a reasonable price.

Any help greatly appreciated!

Bart Brown

*my ancient audio system: besides the Denon Receiver, I also have an Adcom GTP pre-amp, modded Hafler DH-200 and Hafler/Rockford-Fosgate Trans•Ana TA-1100 amps, DCM Time Window 1s, Yamaha center channel speaker, radically-modified Micro-Acoustic FRMs in the rear, and a Rega Planar 3 turntable with Linn Basik arm, Orsonics headshell, and some high-end Audio-Technica MM cartridge stylus.

As I see it your questions can be reduced to two problems.

The first is how to mix old and new with HDMI DRM getting ever more draconian.

The next is how to have good music and HT and have it handy.

I don't know how your old pro logic receiver fits in with your Adcom pre amp and assorted amplifiers, that requires explanation from you.

First you idea of having the TV be the source switcher and output unit is a bad plan.

With the new DRM you will get more and more sources that will not output from your TV, especially from Blue Ray. It is a pity you invested in an optical converter.

With your gear you really need to invest in a modern pre/pro.

I would recommend the the Marantz AV 8003 as the best value for money.

Then you can connect all your digital devices to that, and output to your amps from the 8003. You will need a phono preamp for your turntable.

That will make everything handy and you fall foul of the increasingly draconian DRM issues.

Now I think your DCM1 time windows are not original, as you lost yours in a divorce. You asked on a DIY site how to build a set, so I suspect these are DIY speakers. The time windows used two Sonotube TLs with drivers not on the same axis.

This arrangement is far less than optimal for HT and multichannel audio. I think a replacement for these is now in order.

With the changes I suggest you can use pretty much any BD player you choose. It all comes down to what discs you want to play.

Good DVD up conversion is important to you so look at the Oppo player.

Otherwise I suggest you look at the Panasonic range.

Your pro logic receiver will handicap you severely from here on out, so it is time to take that to the recycling unit.

You are a couple of years younger than me and I have a good mix of new and old, that works well. Click on my signature.

 

[sholling]

I'm going to modify my suggestion to the Marantz that TLS suggested rather than the Onkyo. The reason is that it's come to may attention that their may be some issues between the Roku and the Netflix client and some receivers including but not limited to Onkyos. There is a perfectly functional workaround but I'm holding off on recommending Onkyos until I have more information.

 

[bartbrn]

Well, here's the bird's-eye lowdown: this may disqualify me from this forum, but my MAX price for a receiver is $500.00.

Looking and comparing (until my eyes started burning) on C|Net, Amazon, and OneCall, checking editors' and users' reviews, I've kinda narrowed it down to these: Yamaha RX-V671 and -V465BL, Denon AVR-1912/1913 (I find it interesting that most reviews I've seen find the newer 1913 preferable to the older 1912, but, then, I find a LOT of things that I don't understand interesting!), Pioneer (are they a decent brand now?) VSX-1020K/1021K, Onkyo (are they a decent brand now?) TX-NR609, Sony STR-DN1000, Harmon/Kardon HK 3390 and AVR2600 (although I don't know if 65W is enough grunt to run the Time Windows and MA's -- fortunately my DCM Sub is self-powered -- AND C|Net's editors found the sonic qualities of all the HK's they tested in my price range sub-par).

So, basically I want at least 4 HDMI ins, around 100W (I theoretically like the fact that Denon powers all channels individually, though I don't know what that amounts to Real-World), ARC, 7.1 or 7.2, 2 zone capability, standby pass-through, USB and ethernet connectivity, and a remote that doesn't give me a migraine. I hope that with Airport Express, Roku 2 XS, and AppleTV, I have a fairly good selection of streaming options. Don't particularly care one way or the other about Airplay, as I have no iOS devices, and I can stream -- ethernet or wi-fi -- my 30+ days of iTunes files. I'm not informed enough to know what else I want, or even if what I THINK I want is something that's actually worth having.

I know this is pretty low-buck stuff, but I'm a pretty low-buck guy. Plus I had my hearing tested the other day, and I maxed out at about 12KhZ.

Any suggestions welcomed!

Thanks!

Bart

 

[markw]

If you don't mind factory authorized and guaranteed refurbs, Accessories4less might be a good place to look for Denon or Marantz gear. Many of us, myself included, have bought there.

P.S. We're the same age. Don't feel so old.

 

[BMXTRIX]

It is worth saying that right now you would typically be able to use the analog red/white outputs from your various sources (cable, Roku, Blu-ray) directly to the AVR-3000 and get decent audio.

I'm with everyone else here in that it is recommended that you go for a HD upgrade to the receiver as that will give you the digital connectivity that your system demands. Denon certainly is still a very solid choice for receivers and has a number of products which will fit your budget just fine.

For Blu-ray, I recommend the Panasonic DMP-BDT220 which is about $150 from Amazon.

Please remember: 3D is a feature. You don't have to use it. So, buy the best product for your money and don't you worry about whether it supports 3D or not. Don't confuse '3D support' with '3D'. A TV, BD player, or any source which 'supports 3D' is not the same as one which requires you to use 3D. There really are no products which require you to use 3D to use them, but the best products support all sorts of extended features, and 3D support is one of those features. So, you should not limit your purchases based upon 3D - ever.

 

[sholling]

Well, here's the bird's-eye lowdown: this may disqualify me from this forum, but my MAX price for a receiver is $500.00.

Dar few of us are wealthy so I wouldn't sweat that dollar figure. Just checkout Accessories For Less for refurbs. I've had really good luck with them.

 

[bartbrn]

Stone Age Videophyte makes some progress

Oooops! El mistako: when I wrote "I find it interesting that most reviews I've seen find the newer 1913 preferable to the older 1912...," that should have been the other way 'round -- most editorial and customer reviews I've seen find the older 1912 preferable to the newer 1913, which is kinda reflected in the fact that the getting-scarcer-by-the-minute AVR-1912s are selling for more now than they were a year ago. This is pretty analogous in the digital camera world to the announcement last year or the year before by Pentax of the imminent introduction of the K7 DSLR (roughly replacing the K20D 14.6mp DSLR) which promised so much that people were unloading their K20Ds at bargain-basement prices in anticipation of the "new, improved" K7, which is when I finally picked up a K20D for less than half the price of new, and FAR less than half the price of the projected K7. I'm glad I did, as the K7 proved to be much better on paper than in the flesh, and K20D prices started going up again.

And yes, I've come to the sad realization that my 20-year-old Denon AVR-3000 is NOT going to cut the mustard in modern A/V technology.

I have nothing against 3D, except I can't see it, but my theory -- which seems to be validated by price points in each manufacturer's line of AVRs -- is that each additional feature: one or two more HDMI ins, 7.1 instead of 5.1, ACR, 3D passthrough, Airplay or some other WiFi scheme, etc., adds to the price. You can easily see it in some of C|Net's not-exactly-reviews, which often takes a company's product line in a certain category -- in this case, AVRs -- and first outlines the general features shared by all the products, then deals with the product ladder by saying, in effect, "this next-level model adds..." You can see it clearly in their review of the Denon AVR line:

Well, I was going to post the URL, but apparently I still have my training wheels on here.

So the point I'm trying to make is that pretty much all manufacturers ratchet up the price of the individual models in a line -- say Denon's 2010/2011 AVR-xxxx series -- by the addition of more power, more channels (perhaps for multi-zone use), 3D capability, ARC, USB and/or wi-fi connectivity, etc. My bias against 3D doesn't have anything to do with 3D per se, it has to do with what features manufacturers have chosen to add to climb up to the next price point in the line. So, for example, I'd gladly forego 3D capabilities for more HDMI ins, or more channels. Each manufacturer decides, based on examining the entrails of a freshly-slaughtered customer, what features and compromises -- because there are ALWAYS going to be compromises, even at the top of the line -- are going to be the MOST attractive and marketable to draw in the rubes in droves, with smoking credit cards in their fists.

Given my price range and my preferred set of compromises and features, I've almost completely settled on the older Denon AVR-1912. Amazon (through "Paul's TV") still has new 1912s for $489.99 (about $100 more than street price a year ago) which, with an advertised mfr's MSRP of $549.99 (a whopping 11% off, if anyone PAYS MSRP), doesn't seem that staggering a deal, and -- like the Pentax K20D -- the price has gone up, and will continue to do so. At the end of the almost two-year-old C|Net video review of the 1912, Mike Muskox says "these are going for a street price around $400.00.

******Digression alert!******

Why, in the name of Tophet, are C|Net's full reviews (as opposed to their mfr's boilerplate "featyres" list) all at least a year old, and some as much as THREE years old? In the world of electronics, as in computers, time marches on exceptionally quickly: what was novel, unusual, and therefore pricey in 2009 is commonplace or quite possibly an extinct technology in 2012, a year we're halfway through already. I don't understand it.

*****End of digression*****

At any rate, Amazon/Paul's TV has new ("Only 18 left!" screams the banner) Denon AVR-1912s for $489.99, free shipping. Accessories4Less (an authorized Denon reseller) has a factory-refurb with a one-year warranty for $329.99, and you can add a WARRANTECH 3 Year Total Protection Plan for $34.99, plus $15.61 FedEx Ground shipping, bringing the total up to $380.61, which is STILL a $109.38 savings over the "new" 1912 at Amazon. My limited experience with refurbs has been quite positive, and I'm of Scots heritage, PLUS retired and broke, so $109.38 ain't hay to me, but it's around a 20+% saving. What do all y'all think is it worth the extra hundred bucks to get a new, rather than Denon FACTORY-refurbed, AVR-1912

BTW, I ended up getting a NEW Panasonic DMP-BD75 Blu-Ray player (advertised as fast-loading) for the ludicrous price of $62.40 from Tech for Less.

I finally got my HDMI-out cable box from Comcast and hooked it up to my 42" Panasonic Viera. I was pretty much gobsmacked by the picture quality without any fiddling about. Watched the PBS 2-hour documentary on the War of 1812 (the year I was born!), which was exceptionally well done. I can't wait to see the (I think) 6-part documentary series "The Story of India," which even in mpeg form on my 27" iMac was staggering both visually -- India is a MOST colorful country -- and its breadth of scale, from vast and powerful Indian civilizations utterly forgotten until quite recent archaeological finds, to the problems and people of the present day.

OK, I'm done blabbing...

Thanks again for your help!

Bart

 

[markw]

I didn't know they had HD cameras in 1812...

 

[sholling]

First off in my opinion c/net's audio gear reviews are on just about the same level as Playboy's audio gear reviews - just about useless beyond the pretty pictures. Second there are sweet spots in receivers where the features (and build quality) curve crosses the economies scale (numbers sold) curve. The more that they sell of a given model the lower the manufacturer can drive production costs and prices. That price sweet-spot seems to be $500-900 (street prices) new and $400-600 refurbished. Below that build quality and features suffer and above that price point you reach a point of diminishing returns for the dollars spent.

The Denon AVR-2312 is at a price/features/build-quality sweet-spot and so is the no frills 1912/13.

The 709 ($420 refurbished) that I mentioned is also really sweet for the money because it has all of the really cool features you'll want such as Audyssey MultiEQ XT and uniquely for the price - preouts should you want to add an external amp down the road. The reason that I withdrew my recommendation is a bug in the Roku's Netflix client that causes a color shift if you're watching a Netflix movie with 5.1 sound - weird huh. The workaround is to turn off the receiver's video processing for that HDMI port (just that port). I have high hopes that Roku or Netflix will fix this known problem.

 

[bartbrn]

Digital cameras in 1812

I didn't know they had HD cameras in 1812...

A little-known historical fact. President James Madison had them all destroyed because, recording complete fidelity of the subject being photographed, they made him look like the blubbery, pompous *** he was, unlike his portrait painters, who made him look semi-human.

Bart

 

[markw]

A little-known historical fact. President James Madison had them all destroyed because, recording complete fidelity of the subject being photographed, they made him look like the blubbery, pompous *** he was, unlike his portrait painters, who made him look semi-human.

Bart

When I got my first HDTV, the first thing I saw was a close-up of Rosie O'Donnell's face. I wanted to take it back and go back to SD.

 

[bartbrn]

Onkyo TX-NR709... hmmm...

First off in my opinion c/net's audio gear reviews are on just about the same level as Playboy's audio gear reviews - just about useless beyond the pretty pictures.

While I would not go so far as to say C|Net's reviews are quite at the puff-piece/manufacturer's boilerplate level of mass-circulation non-A/V-specific rags like Playboy (and what are you doing reading Playboy at your age, eh?), I've yet to find an online review source that has any fairly unalloyed credibility -- if you know of a good one, please let me know. What I do is try to find as many reviews of a specific product I can: C|Net, OneCall, YouTube, Amazon etc. customer reviews -- the last most definitely a hit or miss affair, with reviews ranging from "It's totly AWSUM! Druv my nabors to cal the polise got bustid for cratin a publik disturbans" to actually thoughtful and informed appraisals by people who have the technical chops to know what they're talking about (unlike me!), and a command of the English language that allows them to express their thoughts effectively. Separating the gold from the dross and iron pyrites in this multifarious mix of the real and unreal is a fairly impossible task, and this applies pretty universally to most any product, service, device, whatever. That's why I think "subject forums" like this can be among the most useful sources of info -- they tend to be, like this one, a group fairly well-distilled down to those truly interested and involved with the subject at hand.

However, even a well-informed and well-intentioned forum like this one is not exactly objective, in several ways, e.g. people's largely subjective opinions of things like speakers: I personally find the output of any sound projection device built on Bose's "direct/reflecting" principles incredibly grating, sounding, to me, like a duck quacking through a tin horn. Others think Bose is the greatest sound on earth: aural beauty is in the ear of the perceiver. There are many other biases in forums like this one, regarding particular brand names, price points, features, and the inevitable "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome. Humans are, by environment and predisposition, a discerning, discriminating, and judgmental species.

Second there are sweet spots in receivers where the features (and build quality) curve crosses the economies scale (numbers sold) curve. The more that they sell of a given model the lower the manufacturer can drive production costs and prices. That price sweet-spot seems to be $500-900 (street prices) new and $400-600 refurbished. Below that build quality and features suffer and above that price point you reach a point of diminishing returns for the dollars spent.

I completely concur, with the qualified exception of "The more that they sell of a given model the lower the manufacturer can drive production costs and prices." I believe it would be more accurate to say "The more that they sell of all models the lower the manufacturer can drive production costs and prices," allowing manufacturers to create volume "loss leaders," and truly overpriced high-end models that prove, to a not-inconsiderable extent, the "mine is bigger than yours" argument. It is an unfortunate, but undeniable, fact of life that some people believe that the more they pay, the more superior their, shall we say, "equipment ." That's the area beyond where the "features (and build quality) curve crosses the economies scale (numbers sold) curve," and your into the tail of the bell curve of diminishing returns.

The Denon AVR-2312 is at a price/features/build-quality sweet-spot and so is the no frills 1912/13.

The 709 ($420 refurbished) that I mentioned is also really sweet for the money because it has all of the really cool features you'll want such as Audyssey MultiEQ XT and uniquely for the price - preouts should you want to add an external amp down the road. The reason that I withdrew my recommendation is a bug in the Roku's Netflix client that causes a color shift if you're watching a Netflix movie with 5.1 sound - weird huh. The workaround is to turn off the receiver's video processing for that HDMI port (just that port). I have high hopes that Roku or Netflix will fix this known problem.

So now I have to admit one of MY purely subjective prejudices: particular name brands. I'm not talking about the infamous COBY (in SONY's typeface, yet!), but of once fairly proud names fallen on hard times (I would think Sherwood falls into this group, but I'm ready to learn otherwise), and I HAD this apparently highly erroneous opinion of Onkyo, a brand I distinctly remember from the the early '70s when Anglo-American, Swedish, and German audio brands like Garrard, Shure, Thorens, Bang & Olufsen, the original Marantz, Fisher, and even Dynaco were fighting a losing battle (as were the American and British carmakers of the time) against the ingeniousness, productivity, and cutting edge onslaught of Japanese heavy industry. I remember one audiophile store in Ithaca, NY (home of Cornell and a hotbed of early hi-fi insanity) whose ads openly made fun of Japanese brand names, suggesting that no true audio believer would stoop to buying equipment with such outlandish names as Yamaha and Onkyo. Indeed, even the Japanese started buying struggling American firms like Sherwood, or adopted very un-Japanese names like Kenwood (Kasuga Radio Co. Ltd./Trio Corp.).

I have, of course, looked at the many Onkyo A/V offerings, but not until I read (just now) the fairly staggering Audioholics review (April 18, 2011) of the TX-NR709, and saw the original MSRP $900 709 available as a refurb for $420, did it finally enter my head that Onkyo might be a much more viable product than I had supposed:

"There are a few things we like to see in a receiver these days and the Onkyo TX-NR709 has almost all of them. There are 7.2 channel outputs for adding amps later. The speaker terminals are all in a line at the bottom which makes it much easier to use a bare-wire connection. There are extra speaker terminals (four extra pairs) so that you can have more than one type of speaker connected at the same time making switching configurations an issue of settings and not manually changing wires. There are 7.1 channel inputs for integrating legacy gear. There is even a phono input for you extreme old-schoolers that just can't let that vinyl go [YAY!]... There is a front panel HDMI input as well a a front-panel USB port for digital link-up of iPods/iPhones.

"...it wouldn't be much of a networked receiver without an Ethernet port and the TX-NR709 has that covered. It is Windows 7 and DLNA compatible, it can stream content from your networked devices as well as Internet radio, Last.fm, Pandora, Rhapsody, Napster, SiriusXM Internet Radio, Slacker, Mediafly, and vTuner. If you absolutely can't get a wired connection to your home theater, the TX-NR709 is compatible with Onkyo's new (optional) UWF-1 Wireless USB Adapter which will provide a wireless connection.

"If DSP and extra speakers are your thing, the Onkyo TX-NR709 has you covered. Audyssey MultEQ XT room correction and automatic setup solution is onboard as are their Dynamic EQ/Dynamic Volume solutions. If you are interested in adding speakers to the front of your room, you can choose between Dolby's ProLogic IIz height channels or Audyssey's DSX with its width or height channels. Of course, if you're just looking for a second zone, you can either use the dedicated pre-outs or the internal amps. Since you can connect so many speakers to the NR709, you can actually run a 7.2 system most of the time and just reassign the back channels to Zone 2 when you have the need. Of course, you can access all this from the GUI overlaid over HDMI whenever you want.

"We're shocked at how much Onkyo is giving you in the sub $900 TX-NR709. We expect 3D and many of the features but not all of them. We can honestly only count less than a handful features that aren't included in this receiver. 3D, ARC, DSX PLIIz, MultEQ XT, Marvell Qdeo, the alphabet soup goes on. Add to that an i-App for control, integral iPod/iPhone support via a front mounted USB, eight HDMI inputs and dual outputs, dual subwoofer outputs, 7.1 channel inputs and 7.2 channel pre-outs plus Zone 2 line outputs, 11 pairs of speaker connections... there is just too much to mention. For this price point, the TX-NR709 looks to be the receiver to beat."

The WRAT amp technology makes sense, and apparently works well. The almost overwhelming plethora of inputs and outputs means I could integrate any of my analog amps and even Rega Planar turntable, perhaps into Zone 2 configuration.

This really looks like a contender for my price range.

I could spend the next several months pondering the range of A/V receivers, even in my lowly price range, but I think it's s**t or get off the pot time. So, if lf anyone knows why this Onkyo TX-NR709 and I should not be married, let them speak now or forever hold their peace.

Sholling (and everyone) -- thanks several figurative tons for your excellent input!

Bart Brown

 

[bartbrn]

Rosie O'D in leather and studs

When I got my first HDTV, the first thing I saw was a close-up of Rosie O'Donnell's face. I wanted to take it back and go back to SD.

But have you seen her and Dan Aykroyd as LAPD partners, trussed up in black leather/vinyl, silver spike B & D outfits in the very pleasant -- the agelessly beautiful Dana Delaney in full frontal and backal nudosity, for one example -- and pretty funny movie "Exit to Eden"?

Bart

 

[markw]

I saw Exit to Eden. That was made in 1994. Rosie was no beauty even then but she wasn't quite "painful" then, but at least I had Dana Delaney to take the sting away.

Any project by Garry Marshall is worth watching, BTW.

 

[sholling]

While I would not go so far as to say C|Net's reviews are quite at the puff-piece/manufacturer's boilerplate level of mass-circulation non-A/V-specific rags like Playboy (and what are you doing reading Playboy at your age, eh?), I've yet to find an online review source that has any fairly unalloyed credibility

The problem with c/net reviews is that the reviewer strikes me as far more qualified to review ipods and inkjet printers than audio gear. In other words a cub reporter assigned to consumer electronics rather than a seasoned audio nut/engineer turned journalist. But that's just my impression based on reading a few of their "reviews". On the other hand I like cnet/download.com's software reviews a lot.

The audio rag reviews, like computer rag reviews and other hobby rag reviews, have to be taken with a bucket of salt because of the heavy influence of advertising dollars on reviews. I'm just a member here but I've found Audioholics' Pro Reviews (not to be mistaken for previews or the somewhat fluffy video reviews) to be some of the most honest and useful reviews out there. They occasionally mess up but it's rare and they fix any problems. And while we don't always agree (and sometimes argue) I take the opinions of the core couple of dozen active members here very-very seriously when spending my hard earned money. There seems to be a higher percentage of advice based on "I've lived it" or "I've experienced this" or I've designed x-number" vs "my friend said" or "I read on the interwebs" advice here than I've found on many sites.

So now I have to admit one of MY purely subjective prejudices:

Things have changed a lot over the years. The US, Canada, and Europe still make (or at least design) the best speakers but few electronics are made here anymore. Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and Pioneer (I'm not a fan of non-Elite Pioneers) now dominate the receiver market and other than the effects of the different flavors of room correction software all sound about the same ---> excellent. Quality room correction like Audyssey's MultiEQ XT and the like are a real tangible improvement from the "good old days".

I have, of course, looked at the many Onkyo A/V offerings, but not until I read (just now) the fairly staggering Audioholics review (April 18, 2011) of the TX-NR709, and saw the original MSRP $900 709 available as a refurb for $420, did it finally enter my head that Onkyo might be a much more viable product than I had supposed:

I love my 4 Onkyos because of the super bang for the buck but their are two things to be aware of. First they have great big hairy knuckle dragging heavy duty power supplies and amps that put out closer to claimed power than most others in their price class and those generate a lot of heat. That means you can't shut them in a cabinet with no air flow or stack magazines on top of the receiver or you'll cook it. They need to be where air can flow around them. Second is the Roku/Netfix issue that I mentioned earlier. The workaround is to set that one HDMI port's video mode to "direct". That solves the problem until Roku get's it's act together and patches their firmware. If you can live with those two things it's a heck of a receiver. I have an 809 in use as a preamp in my family room, an older 906 in my bedroom, and an older 707 in my home-office and I use my Rokus a lot.

 

[bartbrn]

OK, here are my choices. Please comment!

Onkyo TX-NR709 Factory Refurb.
MSRP new: $899.99
Accessories4Less Refurb Price: $419.99

or

Denon AVR2112CI MSRP New
MSRP $649.00
On Special at OneCall: $487.00

Thanks!

Bart

 

[bartbrn]

The audio rag reviews, like computer rag reviews and other hobby rag reviews, have to be taken with a bucket of salt because of the heavy influence of advertising dollars on reviews.

I take the opinions of the core couple of dozen active members here very-very seriously when spending my hard earned money. There seems to be a higher percentage of advice based on "I've lived it" or "I've experienced this" or I've designed x-number" vs "my friend said" or "I read on the interwebs" advice here than I've found on many sites.

Exactly why I came here, and I couldn't agree more.`

I'm just a member here but I've found Audioholics' Pro Reviews (not to be mistaken for previews or the somewhat fluffy video reviews) to be some of the most honest and useful reviews out there. They occasionally mess up but it's rare and they fix any problems.

I wasn't even aware of the Audioholics' Pro Reviews until just a couple days ago -- wish I'd found it sooner. It was their review of the Onkyo TX-NR709 that shook the cobwebs out of my belfry regarding Onkyo. I also appreciate the fact that they have no reticence about pointing you to the best deals. That refurb Onkyo looks better and better.

Things have changed a lot over the years.

Indeed, and passed me by -- since the late '80s I've moved around a lot -- Savannah, Philadelphia, finally back to Connecticut (originally an Upstate New York farm boy) -- and I haven't kept up with high-end music reproduction as I used to: I can remember wandering from one high-end audio store to another, with my Japanese import vinyl pressing of Steely Dan's "Aja" as my test record -- that's when I fell subjectively head over heels for the DCM Time Windows. For a long time my only audio rig consisted of the afore-mentioned DCM TAs, my also afore-mentioned Rega Planar 3 turntable (which I bought from a starving medical student for $200), and very well cleaned-up Hafler DH-101 Preamp and DH-200 Power amp. I was then working for the war machine in an electronics fabrication facility that not only had platoons of audio-head electronics engineers, but really high-quality caps, resistors, and OFHC Teflon-jacketed wire in many gauges. Because I'd been an experimental machinist, and I supervised a 2nd-shift (4:00PM to 12:00AM) fab room, when all the facility's machinists had gone home, they kindly let me use their lathes, milling machines, and whatever I wanted, so I made a lot of stuff like fiberglass jack panels with gold-plated everything to replace the truly low-budget fish paper with aluminum jacks that Hafler supplied with their kits and built-ups. I assembled many of the Hafler kits for friends.

From that time to this, however, I've been more involved in the Mac world -- bought my first Mac, a IIci, for $5000.00 in 1989: my friends said I would NEVER fill the whoppin' 200MB drive, and I've been a Mac user exclusively ever since, doing contract graphic repair & design and IT work, so my music sources for the past 20 years have largely been iTunes/iPod/SansaClip+ -- all mostly MP3 -- listened to through headphones. THAT's why I'm clueless about modern audio.

I love my 4 Onkyos because of the super bang for the buck but... those generate a lot of heat.... They need to be where air can flow around them.

One great thing about the Hafler amps and their thermal-runaway-proof MOSFETs mounted directly to gigundo heat sinks (which made up the side panels) was that they never ran really warm. Or even HARDLY warm. Still a great basic power amp, and I've been amazed at how many music studios still use them for their "fire-and-forget" pure grunt and excellent damping.

A good friend of mine, who lives in a very small house in Upstate NY, has a set of 6 or 7-foot Magnepans, each driven by a mono McIntosh tube amp -- his living room is NEVER cold!

Second is the Roku/Netfix issue that I mentioned earlier. The workaround is to set that one HDMI port's video mode to "direct". That solves the problem until Roku get's it's act together and patches their firmware. If you can live with those two things it's a heck of a receiver. I have an 809 in use as a preamp in my family room, an older 906 in my bedroom, and an older 707 in my home-office and I use my Rokus a lot.

Yeah, I think I can live with that. Roku troubles me a little: a great idea, an inexpensive technology, but is the company ITSELF going to be around that long? What with big manufacturer's incorporating more and more streaming capability to their receivers, players, and TVs, if Roku is really successful, I could easily see them bought out just to take them out of the competition. Please tell me more about the Roku problem and setting an HDMI port to "direct" in the Onkyos

If I don't see any dauntingly negative comments about the Onkyo TX-NR709, I think I'm going to take the plunge.

Thanks again for your experience, wisdom, and insight. THAT's what makes great forums great.

Bart

 

[bartbrn]

Well, there's no such thing as reading too much!

Now, I hope somebody will help me with my absolute, bottom-dollar, final (until the next thing I see!) choice:

Onkyo TX-NR609 MSRP: $599 Onkyo Factory Refurb Accessories4Less: $279.99

Audioholics review:

Onkyo TX-NR609 THX Select2 Plus 7.2 Network Receiver First Look — Reviews and News from Audioholics

OR

Onkyo TX-NR709 MSRP: $899 Onkyo Factory Refurb Accessories4Less: $419.99

Audioholics review:

Onkyo TX-NR709 7.2 Channel Networked THX Receiver First Look — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Any ideas? Bueller?

Thanks

Bart