High current amplifiers and Power conditioner

[benning]

Hi everyone!
I'm wondering if I should I plug my high current amplifier into a power conditioner or directly in the wall socket. People really seem divided on this subject. I've searched this forum and many others on the net and couldn't seem to find a satisfying answer...

Lots of people seem to think, including my amp's manufacturer, that line conditioners diminish sound quality on high current amps. On the other hand, I am worried about surges and if it were possible to improve the sound, I, of course, would like to.

Has anyone come across an article or any other kind of clear explanation on this subject (based on actual tests)? I am sure there must be some models out there that don't affect the sound quality but I'm not willing to spend over a grand (actually, the cheaper, the better).

Thanks in advance!

 

[j_garcia]

I asked Emotiva this directly. They said high current outlets on a power conditioner will be fine. Not sure about other manufacturers, but in Emotiva's case, their answer was that the unit itself has sufficient circuitry to protect itself so it doesn't really need to be on a suppressor, however in my case those are the only outlets I have in reach of the amp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Lots of people seem to think, including my amp's manufacturer, that line conditioners diminish sound quality on high current amps. ...

Thanks in advance!

Ask your amp maker how does it diminish sound quality, not just a blanket statement.
Also, which high current amps are we talking about here? How high? Under what conditions? High current can be just an audio buzz word like so many others.

 

[benning]

Ask your amp maker how does it diminish sound quality, not just a blanket statement.
Also, which high current amps are we talking about here? How high? Under what conditions? High current can be just an audio buzz word like so many others.

Indeed. I'm not quite sure how high... My amp is a Simaudio i3.3dpx.
I did ask the manufacturer and he mentioned something to the effect that it would affect it if the amp needed a sudden burst of power ( I suppose in case of a loud bass sound). That somehow the conditioner would not provide the amp with sufficient power... Then again, maybe I did not get that right.

What do you mean by "under what conditions"?

BTW, thanks for the answers!

 

[jliedeka]

Honestly, if the amp is properly designed, a power conditioner does nothing. At worst, it's sapping a tiny amount of power that might have gone to the amp.

I have and use a power conditioner but that's because I bought it before I knew better. They are another form of audiophile snake oil like overpriced cables and such.

Use it or don't, you shouldn't notice a difference.

Jim

 

[benning]

Honestly, if the amp is properly designed, a power conditioner does nothing. At worst, it's sapping a tiny amount of power that might have gone to the amp.

I have and use a power conditioner but that's because I bought it before I knew better. They are another form of audiophile snake oil like overpriced cables and such.

Use it or don't, you shouldn't notice a difference.

Jim

So I shouldn't worry about power surges?

 

[jliedeka]

APower conditioner will provide, at best, minimal protection from power surges. If lightning strikes your house, it won't help. There are whole house protection systems for that.

Jim

 

[Rickster71]

Lots of people seem to think, including my amp's manufacturer, that line conditioners diminish sound quality on high current amps.

There are too many variables for them to make that blanket statement.
Is it a dedicated circuit? If not, what else shares that circuit?
Is it a 15 or 20 amp circuit?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Honestly, if the amp is properly designed, a power conditioner does nothing. At worst, it's sapping a tiny amount of power that might have gone to the amp.

I have and use a power conditioner but that's because I bought it before I knew better. They are another form of audiophile snake oil like overpriced cables and such.

Use it or don't, you shouldn't notice a difference.

Jim

Depending on the amp and the system and the power conditioner the penalty may not be so small. Unless you have a relatively low-power amp, like 2x60w/ch, don't use a power conditioner. For a high-power amp, like say an Emotiva XPA-2, it's not a good idea, unless you're just listening at background music levels all of the time.

I've never heard (or seen) an improvement with power conditioners, but when I lived in San Diego an isolation transformer made an audible difference. I don't know what the heck the military is doing down there, but I had one heck of an interference problem that a transformer mostly suppressed when I connected the line-level components into it. (Not the amps.)

 

[Rickster71]

I got a power conditioner about 5 years ago for my flat screen and satellite receiver upstairs.
With full intentions of returning it, if it failed my power drill test.
I plug in a drill into the wall while listening to my stereo without the conditioner. I can hear static through the stereo.
When I plug either the drill or the stereo into the conditioner, no static.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Indeed. I'm not quite sure how high... My amp is a Simaudio i3.3dpx.
I did ask the manufacturer and he mentioned something to the effect that it would affect it if the amp needed a sudden burst of power ( I suppose in case of a loud bass sound). That somehow the conditioner would not provide the amp with sufficient power... Then again, maybe I did not get that right.

What do you mean by "under what conditions"?

BTW, thanks for the answers!

If your amp needs a sudden burst of current the filter caps are there to supply that current. That is what they are designed to do.

Checking the specs on it, it is rated at 100 watts into 8 Ohms and 200 watts into 4 ohms. I would not call that a high current amp by any means.

A power strip should provide the current demands to its designed amount. Also, depending on your circuit breaker, the strip design limits, and duration of that demand one may trip to protect.
I would not worry about that amp drawing too much current.

I have a number of components including a projector on a 15A circut, a 270 watt per ch amp for my two passive subs and it has yet to trip at levels that doesn't bleed my ears or destroys the china in the cabinets while watching a movie

 

[mtrycrafts]

Indeed. I'm not quite sure how high... My amp is a Simaudio i3.3dpx.
I did ask the manufacturer and he mentioned something to the effect that it would affect it if the amp needed a sudden burst of power ( I suppose in case of a loud bass sound). That somehow the conditioner would not provide the amp with sufficient power... Then again, maybe I did not get that right.

What do you mean by "under what conditions"?

BTW, thanks for the answers!

Also, their spec sheet has 12A max continuous and 22A max peak. Where is this at at the 120V outlet/power cord or on the rails to the speakers?
At the outlet, that would translate into 2640 watts of power at 120V. I hardly think that is what happens as a 20A breaker would trip well before that, let alone a 15A.
So, I would say, it is like any other amp with that power rating, nothing more.

 

[tattoo_Dan]

Hi everyone!
I'm wondering if I should I plug my high current amplifier into a power conditioner or directly in the wall socket. People really seem divided on this subject. I've searched this forum and many others on the net and couldn't seem to find a satisfying answer...

Lots of people seem to think, including my amp's manufacturer, that line conditioners diminish sound quality on high current amps. On the other hand, I am worried about surges and if it were possible to improve the sound, I, of course, would like to.

Has anyone come across an article or any other kind of clear explanation on this subject (based on actual tests)? I am sure there must be some models out there that don't affect the sound quality but I'm not willing to spend over a grand (actually, the cheaper, the better).

Thanks in advance!

I had a 20A dedicated outlet installed for just my HT.

and IMO a good quality power dist/conditioner/surge unit IS a good part of any HT or sound system,

IMO a unit like mine APC AV 1.5 kVA H Type Power Conditioner 120V can at the least help protect and extend the life of certain electronic pieces.


making a sound system/HT sound better !?!? of affecting the sound !>!?!? no I don't think so,but it certainly will do good things for the life of the parts considering the fluctuation of AC current in many homes.

 

[Rickster71]

So I shouldn't worry about power surges?

First, it has to be understood that surges and direct lightening strikes are two totally different animals.
Unless we all plan on installing Halo systems, we'll leave direct strikes for the insurance company.

Most of the damage caused by near field strikes is the induction of current into multiple paths between circuits, or between other conductors like cable TV and networks, or phone systems.
Any system that forms loops that the current from a near by lightning strike can induce surge current into can be affected.
After that, it's more the common surges that occur inside a home, when the refrigerator compressor starts and stops, likewise with air conditioning.
Even if this does not cause an immediate failure, components repeatedly stressed beyond voltage specifications can have a shortened life.
This can show up as latent damage; equipment failing for no apparent reason.

 

[djreef]

First, it has to be understood that surges and direct lightening strikes are two totally different animals.
Unless we all plan on installing Halo systems, we'll leave direct strikes for the insurance company.

Most of the damage caused by near field strikes is the induction of current into multiple paths between circuits, or between other conductors like cable TV and networks, or phone systems.
Any system that forms loops that the current from a near by lightning strike can induce surge current into can be affected.
After that, it's more the common surges that occur inside a home, when the refrigerator compressor starts and stops, likewise with air conditioning.
Even if this does not cause an immediate failure, components repeatedly stressed beyond voltage specifications can have a shortened life.
This can show up as latent damage; equipment failing for no apparent reason.

This the primary reason why I use one. I like the idea of getting 10-15 quality years out of a piece of equipment, and then being able to get a little something out of it when I go to sell it. I can squeeze a nickel til it screams.

DJ

 

[oat07]

First, it has to be understood that surges and direct lightening strikes are two totally different animals.
Unless we all plan on installing Halo systems, we'll leave direct strikes for the insurance company.

Most of the damage caused by near field strikes is the induction of current into multiple paths between circuits, or between other conductors like cable TV and networks, or phone systems.
Any system that forms loops that the current from a near by lightning strike can induce surge current into can be affected.
After that, it's more the common surges that occur inside a home, when the refrigerator compressor starts and stops, likewise with air conditioning.
Even if this does not cause an immediate failure, components repeatedly stressed beyond voltage specifications can have a shortened life.
This can show up as latent damage; equipment failing for no apparent reason.

I totally Ageed.

 

[PENG]

Ask your amp maker how does it diminish sound quality, not just a blanket statement.
Also, which high current amps are we talking about here? How high? Under what conditions? High current can be just an audio buzz word like so many others.

You could be on to something. I search, could not find the i3.3 dpx but found i3.3. It has the following specs.

Configuration ......................................................... Stereo
Power Supply Transformer ....................................... 400VA
Power Supply Capacitance ...................................... 40,000μF
Class Of Operation - Amplifier .................................. Class A/B
Output Power @ 8Ω ................................................ 100 Watts per channel
Output Power @ 4Ω ................................................ 200 Watts per channel
Maximum Current – Peak ........................................ 22 amperes
Maximum Current – Continuous .............................. 12 amperes

The specs are conflicting in the sense that:

1) It doubles down so yes I consider it "high current". Though you can re-re-rate a mid range Yamaha AVR that does 100W 8 ohms, 140W 4 ohms to 70W 8 ohms and 140W 4 ohms and then call it a high current amp too. I am sure some manufacturers do such tricks but not Simaudio I would think.

2) Tell me how the heck can a class A/B amp output 200W per channel using a 400VA power transformer?

3) 12 amperes continuous? So for the sake of simplicity, let's assume the load is purely resistive for a moment, power = Voltage X amperes, that is, at 12 amperes 120V, the power output would be 1440 VA >> 400 VA??? If the 12 amperes is at rail voltage of say 50V, then 12X50=600VA, still >> 400VA.

Sometimes I wonder if the engineering department has any says on what the sales department want to put on the instruction manuals, product sheets etc.

 

[PENG]

Indeed. I'm not quite sure how high... My amp is a Simaudio i3.3dpx.
I did ask the manufacturer and he mentioned something to the effect that it would affect it if the amp needed a sudden burst of power ( I suppose in case of a loud bass sound). That somehow the conditioner would not provide the amp with sufficient power... Then again, maybe I did not get that right.

What do you mean by "under what conditions"?

BTW, thanks for the answers!

I tried to find the specs of the i3.3 dpx but could only find the i3.3. If the i3.3 dpx has similar specs then I would say a good conditioner that is rated for 15A should be fine for it. The rated current of a 400 VA transformer at 120V is only 3.34A (continuous) so no a good power conditioning unit would not become a limiting factor. Someone mentioned the XPA-2, that has a 1200 VA transformer, a different story for sure. Peak currents could be much higher, but for relatively lower power amps, it should not be high enough to interact with a well designed power conditioner.

 

[PENG]

Configuration ......................................................... Mono
Power Supply Transformers .................................... 2 x 1.3kVA
Power Supply Capacitance ...................................... 240,000μF
Class Of Operation ................................................. A/AB
Design .................................................................... Fully Balanced Differential
Input Impedance ................................................... 47,500Ω
Input Sensitivity ..................................................... 2250mV
Output Device Type ................................................ Bipolars - 32
Output Power at 8Ω ............................................... 800 Watts
Output Power at 4Ω .............................................. 1600 Watts

Just an example, the above spec would indicate a real 'high current" amplifier imo and I would not use it with a typical power conditioner.

 

[GranteedEV]

Just an example, the above spec would indicate a real 'high current" amplifier imo and I would not use it with a typical power conditioner.

Emotiva is offering a power conditioner now. That might be the solution...