Sub Amp

[fuzz092888]

Is an amp like the Behringer NU6000 the real deal? I know class D is supposed to deliver more power for less money, compared to class A or A/B amps, with certain tradeoffs, but does it really deliver that much more power for that much less? $500 compared to many other pro amps that are well over a grand, not to mention the lab gruppen amps. What's the deal here, is this just smart advertising where it either doesn't live up to the specs or it only lives up to them under very specific circumstances or is there something else?

 

[DS-21]

From what I can gather, the NU6000 is a copy of the Peavey IPR3000.

Lots of fan noise, but in terms out output the real deal. Still, if I was buying a sub amp to hide, I'd reward the original designers rather than to copiers. Especially since the "original" premium is low to nonexistent.

 

[fuzz092888]

Alright, that sounds good. I'm assuming that the fans can be swapped out or tweaked with a little knowhow or help. I have no problem buying a peavey, I didn't know it was a copy and they're close in price so all's well that ends well.

 

[disco243]

Is an amp like the Behringer NU6000 the real deal? I know class D is supposed to deliver more power for less money, compared to class A or A/B amps, with certain tradeoffs, but does it really deliver that much more power for that much less? $500 compared to many other pro amps that are well over a grand, not to mention the lab gruppen amps. What's the deal here, is this just smart advertising where it either doesn't live up to the specs or it only lives up to them under very specific circumstances or is there something else?

My experience with the NU series has been very poor. Those rated values are 'Peak' values rather than constant values. I used one for my party last week and it crapped out three times during normal activity.

 

[fuzz092888]

Looks like it's the peavey for sure then since it says on their specs RMS.

 

[DS-21]

Alright, that sounds good. I'm assuming that the fans can be swapped out or tweaked with a little knowhow or help. I have no problem buying a peavey, I didn't know it was a copy and they're close in price so all's well that ends well.

The IPR-1600 also has benched at reasonable tolerance to spec, given differences in measurement conditions and such.

My experience (and Noah Katz's, reported on AVS) is that the IPR3000 puts out enough voltage down low into a real sub to make the quoted spec plausible.

 

[walter duque]

I always had faith in Electro-Voice TG7 3500 W per channel power amplifier. Not well known in the HT community (still have one hanging around). Might work for your sub.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So Fuzz, you have passive subs too?

I'm also shopping for sub amps.

Looked at Behringer, Crown, Dayton, Electro-voice, QSC.

Electro-voice is a lot more than I want to pay.

Don't have a great feeling with Behringer due to user reviews.

Dayton SA1000 is interesting. 950watts/4ohm/20lb/$425 (shipped).

Crown XLS interest me since they are high powered, light (8 - 10 lbs), good Rep with user reviews and pro crowd. A XLS comparable to the Dayton SA1000 is the XLS1000 (1100watts/4ohm/bridged) and it's $300 delivered vs $ $425.

Of course, the XLS is 2400watts/4ohm/bridged/10lbs for $550.

QSC RMX2450 is $713 & is also 2400watts/4ohm/bridged/45lbs.

Peavey is cheaper, but what quality vs Crown?

 

[jinjuku]

My experience with the NU series has been very poor. Those rated values are 'Peak' values rather than constant values. I used one for my party last week and it crapped out three times during normal activity.

Always read the user guide. Period. I agree that the naming nomenclature is dubious but Behringer does list RMS values in their manual.

 

[fuzz092888]

So Fuzz, you have passive subs too?

Not yet, I'm gonna try my hand at DIY. The two subs I have now are, not so great (heck one was free) and I want to replace them. So I'm going to build one of the CSS kits. However, an RE XXX 18" surfaced in my area for a good price so I was thinking of buying it and saving it for a future project, but they need a ton of power, and if powering it is going to cost more than I want to spend I ain't gonna waste my money on it.

Although with the way things are looking it may just be worth it.............

 

[DS-21]

ADTG, I'm curious why Nathan's plate amp isn't on your list. It seems the ideal fit: plenty of power (both continuous and burst voltage swing), DSP, fair price, and no extra box in your room. Do you not have a power outlet near where you want to put it?

Electro-voice is a lot more than I want to pay.

Yeah, that CC swipe wasn't fun...

I wonder how much cheaper they'd be if made in China, rather than Germany.

Dayton SA1000 is interesting. 950watts/4ohm/20lb/$425 (shipped).

I'd say, comparing specs like with like, that the power is closer to 750W. BUT, don't forget attractive faceplate, auto-on and 12V trigger, band of parametric EQ, continuous phase control, and input sensitivity compatible with any consumer audio gear. Also, significant short-term voltage swing, which is useful for driving subs.

Crown XLS interest me since they are high powered, light (8 - 10 lbs), good Rep with user reviews and pro crowd. A XLS comparable to the Dayton SA1000 is the XLS1000 (1100watts/4ohm/bridged) and it's $300 delivered vs $ $425.

While continuous power is less, the SA1000 can swing more peak voltage than the XLS1000. Probably the XLS1500 as well.

Peavey is cheaper, but what quality vs Crown?

Parts quality equal or better. Technology equal or possibly better, with the caveat that they basically have no heatsinking inside so the fans run constantly. Faceplate looks/feels cheaper. Useful for consumer gear (like the unbalanced miniDSP) because the input required for full power is just 0.775V, as opposed to double that for the Crown. However, the effing blue LED's just don't stop. Even if it's hidden, the light-show may make it visible.

Peavey has for a long time claimed that they would offer an "adult" version of the IPR with better casing and fewer stupid blue LED's, the Crest Pro-Lite series. The Pro-Lites are, to date at least, sadly vaporware.

 

[jinjuku]

While continuous power is less, the SA1000 can swing more peak voltage than the XLS1000. Probably the XLS1500 as well.

What is the basis for this?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, I'm curious why Nathan's plate amp isn't on your list. It seems the ideal fit: plenty of power (both continuous and burst voltage swing), DSP, fair price, and no extra box in your room. Do you not have a power outlet near where you want to put it?

Contrary to everyone else, I don't want my amp to be part of the subwoofer.

I want them to be separate.

If I could do it over again, I would not have bought the Rythmik subs because they are active subs with amps.

Anyway, I think I will get 2 Crown XLS2500 amps (2400 Watts/4ohm/bridged).

Will I ever need more than 2400 Watts?

I will plug them into my Denon AVR-5308CI (has 3 outlets). So will not need trigger.

 

[its phillip]

Anyway, I think I will get 2 Crown XLS2500 amps (2400 Watts/4ohm/bridged).

Will I ever need more than 2400 Watts?

I will plug them into my Denon AVR-5308CI (has 3 outlets). So will not need trigger.

Aren't the outlets on the back of your receiver going to be very limited in output?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Aren't the outlets on the back of your receiver going to be very limited in output?

Good point.

Oh, well, I can just hook them up to my 20A surge protector.

 

[DS-21]

What is the basis for [my claim that the SA1000 can swing more voltage than the Crown XLS1000, and possibly XLS1500 as well?]

Two things.

First, I've been told by two separate, unrelated individuals:

one who uses the SA1000 in his firm's own commercial subwoofers;*

and one who used the same (Engne Tang/Sherbourn) design but specify it with their own logos (and, incidentally, rate it at the 750W continuous their testing said it could do, rather than playing PE's 1/3 duty cycle game)**,

that the SA1000's true capabilities into 4Ω are about 750W continuous, 950W 1/3 duty cycle, over 1800W transient burst. (The numbers I was given were were slightly but insignificantly different from each party; at any rate, I rounded down from the lower set.)

However, Crown's tech support has commented in the past that the "peak" ratings for the Drivecore stuff are basically the same as the "continuous" ratings; the new budget Class D stuff doesn't have a lot of headroom over spec, unlike some of the slightly older generation like Powersoft, et al. The Peavey IPR-series lead designer has made the same remark about the IPR series.

So, if the Dayton can give 1.8kW burst, and the Crown XLS1500's burst capability is roughly what its continuous output is, then the Dayton can swing higher voltages into transient peaks.

*that one should be easy to guess
**I gave enough info to guess that one, but it's harder. At any rate, I haven't asked the gentleman if I could reveal his name or affiliation.

 

[jinjuku]

Two things.

First, I've been told by two separate, unrelated individuals:

one who uses the SA1000 in his firm's own commercial subwoofers;*

and one who used the same (Engne Tang/Sherbourn) design but specify it with their own logos (and, incidentally, rate it at the 750W continuous their testing said it could do, rather than playing PE's 1/3 duty cycle game)**,

that the SA1000's true capabilities into 4Ω are about 750W continuous, 950W 1/3 duty cycle, over 1800W transient burst. (The numbers I was given were were slightly but insignificantly different from each party; at any rate, I rounded down from the lower set.)

However, Crown's tech support has commented in the past that the "peak" ratings for the Drivecore stuff are basically the same as the "continuous" ratings; the new Class D stuff. The Peavey IPR-series lead designer has made the same remark about the IPR series.

So, if the Dayton can give 1.8kW burst, and the Crown XLS1500's burst capability is roughly what its continuous output is, then the Dayton can swing higher voltages into transient peaks.

Thanks for clarification and explanation. My only issue with it is that it's 2 channel amp where the EQ is paralleled across both channels. On the class D that makes sense since the PSU is already in the 90% range of efficiency.

I would still take the Berhinger iNuke 6000DSP for $499 over the SA1000. It's 2200 WPC RMS at 4 ohm and has a full management suite. You can even password protect the DSP panel. Wait for a 15% off coupon and knock it down to $425.

 

[jinjuku]

Two things.

First, I've been told by two separate, unrelated individuals:

one who uses the SA1000 in his firm's own commercial subwoofers;*

That would be CHT / Craig Chase / AKA CraigSub

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is Behringer fan noise louder than Crown?

How loud are any of these fan noise anyway?

I guess one advantage of the SA1000 is that it has no fan noise at all.

 

[jinjuku]

Is Behringer fan noise louder than Crown?

How loud are any of these fan noise anyway?

I guess one advantage of the SA1000 is that it has no fan noise at all.

It depends on which Crown

The XLS Drive Cores are virtually silent. The Behringer will require mediation of some sort. I'm in process of moving the amplification stack to the garage so it won't matter in my case.

You should be able to check out the Crown and Behringer units at Guitar Center. They have a 30 day no hassle return policy.