Low Sensitivity Speaker Thoughts?

ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I'm trying to understand what constitutes a well designed low sensitivty speaker so that I can know what to look for. The answer inst obtainable via google and I tried.
Sensitivity is but one of many factors, and given nearly unlimited amp power not a primary concern, to be considered when choosing a speaker. Use that calculator I linked to to see if you're within limits or will be pushing things too hard, and don't choose anything that you are forced to run anywhere near it's limits. Think practically. If your room is medium to small, you could be very well satisfied with some well designed relatively low sensitivity Salks, for example. If you have a bigger room or simply desire ridiculous spl, look for more sensitivity, or learn to live with thermal compression and get huge amps and hope your speakers can handle it. Good frequency response, compatibility with room/placement (polars/in-room power response), even aesthetics and other factors will be more important than sensitivity. While it's true that less sensitive speakers have lower limits than more sensitive ones, if those limits are beyond what you ever call on them for, does it really matter?

There will always be us crotchety die-hards (like me, and seemingly DS-21) who demand wider dynamic range than the bulk of speakers out there provide. Dynamic range is something that seems less and less appreciated in this era of compression and puny, fashionable speakers. But it's simple physics. Big, lifelike, effortless dynamics are much more easily accomplished by big, high sensitivity speakers.
 
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Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yes, it is.

Physics is physics. Sorry.

And the physics of heat radiated from wires means thermal compression.
Heat radiated from wires does not mean thermal compression, heat maintained in wires does. A better designed speaker will be capable of radiating more heat. I do however agree with you that it is a factor on well designed speakers as well if they are run near their limits. It is more of a problem on poorly designed speaker drivers though.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, it is.

Physics is physics. Sorry.

And the physics of heat radiated from wires means thermal compression.
Really? Tell that to my Maggies. They present a fairly eloquent argument that you're barking up the wrong tree. Try and tell anyone who has heard them that those inefficient speakers when driven by a capable amp that they lack dynamics.

Hearing is believing. ...sorry :eek:

Good engineering can compensate for virtually any problems in the real world. Heat can be dissipated with good engineering. Now, if you want to argue theoreticals, then you're simply playing with yourself.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Sensitivity is but one of many factors, and given nearly unlimited amp power not a primary concern, to be considered when choosing a speaker.
As OP proves here, it's a simple thing for the uneducated to latch on, much like watts.

Or, it's a good jumping off point for trolling.
 
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G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm kinda curious OP, what got you started on this thought experiment?
 
S

somesnapper

Audioholic Intern
I was recommended a few popular 84db speakers, then someone told me it wouldn't work with my reciever and adding a amp would reduce sound quality because the speakers weren't intended to be pushed that hard. Then a downward spiral from there...
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I was recommended a few popular 84db speakers, then someone told me it wouldn't work with my reciever and adding a amp would reduce sound quality because the speakers weren't intended to be pushed that hard. Then a downward spiral from there...
I believe this was pretty much coverd in post # 2 in this thread. Where did the bit about hearing damage being over-rated come into play here?
 
S

somesnapper

Audioholic Intern
Not sure, it's unrelated to the thread though.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If you're lazy and have an spl meter, here is a calculator that will do the math for you:

Peak SPL Calculator

Keep in mind that back in the beginning, primordial age of hi-fi, amp power was at a premium, so considerable attention was paid to sensitivity. Amp power is no longer at a premium, and most have wives who prefer not to have speakers-as-furniture. So now speakers with lower dynamic range limits that are necessarily driven harder are the norm. Many exhibit superior performance in other areas, such as smoother/flatter freq response, deeper bass per cabinet volume, etc.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and any self respecting Audioholic should have multiple systems employing a variety of approaches.;)
I agree amp power is more affordable nowadays but one must also pay attention to a couple of things such as:

1. The maximum power handling capabilities, continuous and peak.
2. The maximum SPL output.

Unfortunately, it seems many manufacturers don't provide the above information. They often give you something like "recommended amplifer power requirements", "maximum input power", "suitable amplifier power range", or other slight variations of the sort. As far as the SPL output, KEF does provide some numbers but I bet most others don't.

One can buy enough power for the said 82 dB/W/M speakers, only to find that in order to achieve the >100 dB average (not me:D) in a medium to large room, one may risk damaging the speakers by the power (heat) that it is not design to handle.

May be the Maggies (say average can hadle 4 times the power that the typical KEF can, but it needs to be confirmed by them.

To use an example, if I were interested in acquiring a pair of Magneplanar 3.7 or Soundscape 12 that have sensitivity 86 dB/W/M, 4 ohms nominal, I would not hesitate to power than with a 500 WPC amp and expect to get at least 110 dB undistorted SPL, but I would not make such assumption if someone (such as the OP) just post a question about "low sensitivity speaker" without specifying the make/model or full specifications. Note that the OP mentioned 84 dB and 82 dB, that's it and then asked if the speaker would clip if fed 2500W. Post #2 raised some questions, followed by others.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I was recommended a few popular 84db speakers, then someone told me it wouldn't work with my reciever and adding a amp would reduce sound quality because the speakers weren't intended to be pushed that hard. Then a downward spiral from there...
If you can tell us the models and/or detailed specifications, your room size, how far you sit from the speakers, and average SPL you need then we may have a good chance to give you a clearer answer or at least spiral it back up from here.
 
S

somesnapper

Audioholic Intern
Lets say I was looking at both a popular tower with MTMWW design thats 89 sensitive vs a popular TMM with larger drivers on the bottom end that was 84db. I was looking to amping the lower end speaker vs powering the higher sensitivity speaker with my receiver. Some people told me that it was "not worth it" to push the lower sensitivity speaker because its designed to sound relaxed. Others said that amping is the norm and it should sound perfect without issue. It seems that people who supported amping always included "ear damage" in the reasoning which appeared to be a way to side step the facts. I dont expect anyone to listen at 100db constant for hours per day and honestly I'm not even thinking of that. Ive DJ'd for 10+yrs (even in clubs) back in my 20's. Personally my hearing is just fine. I guess everyone's mileage may vary. I normally listen around 85db but my concern is that i'll clip if the listening position is 15feet (medium room)

Anyway thanks to this thread I have learned a few things that I didn't consider before:

1. The maximum power handling capabilities, continuous and peak.
2. The maximum SPL output.
3. Room size
4. Average spl listening levels

All will be considered and my search will continue on. Thanks.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Lets say I was looking at both a popular tower with MTMWW design thats 89 sensitive vs a popular TMM with larger drivers on the bottom end that was 84db. I was looking to amping the lower end speaker vs powering the higher sensitivity speaker with my receiver. Some people told me that it was "not worth it" to push the lower sensitivity speaker because its designed to sound relaxed. Others said that amping is the norm and it should sound perfect without issue. It seems that people who supported amping always included "ear damage" in the reasoning which appeared to be a way to side step the facts. I dont expect anyone to listen at 100db constant for hours per day and honestly I'm not even thinking of that. Ive DJ'd for 10+yrs (even in clubs) back in my 20's. Personally my hearing is just fine. I guess everyone's mileage may vary. I normally listen around 85db but my concern is that i'll clip if the listening position is 15feet (medium room)

Anyway thanks to this thread I have learned a few things that I didn't consider before:

1. The maximum power handling capabilities, continuous and peak.
2. The maximum SPL output.
3. Room size
4. Average spl listening levels

All will be considered and my search will continue on. Thanks.
You have asked a difficult question, that opens up a huge set of issues.

It goes to the heart of the matter, as to why speakers should be very large and the very high cost of making high performance speakers.

The sensitivity/efficiency/power handling equation is one that always calls for compromise to meet design goals.

On the one hand is the desire for speakers of practical size, even before you get to WAF.

So what makes a highly sensitive speakers.

1). First and foremost is the flux density in the gap. So you achieve this by having a powerful, magnet, with a voice coil entirely within the gap. (Under slung). Also you need to get the coil in very close proximity to the pole piece. This calls for expensive precision engineering. This also helps greatly in heat transfer to the pole piece and significantly reduces thermal compression and voice coil burn out. This also increases power handling greatly. The poles may or may not be vented and require copper shorting rings to focus the magnetic flux. This all adds up to a very expensive motor.

2). Next is moving mass, especially the weight of the cone being the major contributor. A heavy cone, lowers Fs and therefore how low the speaker can play. However a light cone will be more sensitive.

3). The stiffness of the suspension. This obviously is a factor. If you make a light cone, with high flux density and a very compliant suspension. The speaker will be sensitive and efficient, but have limited power handling, as the motor system will easily be driven beyond its mechanical limits..

Now lets look at how all these issues work against each other.

Now every speaker has a resonance, which is a combination of the electrical resonance (Qes) and mechanical resonance (Qms)

The relationship between the total Q Qts of a speaker and Qes and Qms is: - 1/Qts = 1/Qes + 1/Qms.

Now a moving coil driver does not exist in isolation. There is the relationship of the speakers and its loading. The total system Q, Qtlc, can never be lower then the Qts of the driver and it is always a bit higher.

Now Q really is a measure of damping. (acoustic over hang if you like).

The higher the number, the more uncontrolled and sloppy the bass.

It has been traditional to believe that system Qs of 0.7 are optimal. Many systems are higher than this. However as tastes become more refined, there is a marked shift to 0.5. I personally believe that total system Q needs to be 0.5 or even a little less. I am convinced now, that accurate bass reproduction is impossible, with total system Q greater than 0.5.

So how does this fit together.

As you increase gap flux density and sensitivity, you increase electrical damping and therefore lower Qes and therefore Qts.

If the suspension is loose, the driver will not handle much power. So the mechanical damping has to increase, so we have a driver with low Qes and Qms and therefore low Qts.

At first sight this seems like just what we want. However, when you try to align the driver with a low Qts, you find a bass cut off well above f3.

So you have poor bass, unless you make the cone very heavy to lower Fs. Then you loose sensitivity.

The only way round this is a large horn enclosure. That way you can get deep bass and very high sensitivity and efficiency.

If you load a low Qts driver in a sealed enclosure, the F3 is very high and it takes far too much power to equalize it.

So you end up having a lot of trade offs. In the end you end up with a driver in with a Qts in the 0.3 to 0.35 and porting the enclosure. The result is you get an speaker with sensitivity in the +/- 90 db range, and resonant reproduction with Qtc too high and blame the room for the bass bloom, which is sometimes true, but by no means always.

If you make a sealed alignment, then you end up selecting a higher Qts driver with a soft (poorly damped) suspension. F3 will then be in the range where Eq is possible, as long as the motor design can handle the heat and there is sufficient linear travel (xmax) allowed for. However you can still end up with a design with a tight bass and Qtc in the 0.5 range, as long as you select a driver with a Qts not far north of 0.4. Very high Qts drivers, quite common in even expensive subs always sound lousy.

As far as a TL is concerned again the sweet spot is a driver Qts 0.3 to O.35, with a low Fs. Because of the nature of the loading sensitivities of 93 db I watt 1 meter even down to 20 Hz are achievable, and with a Qtc no higher than 0.5. So you can have deep bass without resonance or bloom with relatively high sensitivity down to 20 Hz. However the enclosure will be large, but not as large as a horn.

So in summary low efficiency and sensitivity, in addition to wasting energy and amp power is not a good thing. It generally implies poor electrical and or mechanical damping. It also can imply high order passive crossover networks, which can aid in producing a speaker with excellent frequency response, but never results in a first class overall result, mainly due to horrendous time and phase shifts, which really do preclude excellent results.

The exception to the above is very small sealed enclosures where driver parameters can be set to achieve an F3 in the 80 to 90 Hz range.

Sensitivity then ends up being in the 84 db 1 watt 1 meter range. In order to get high spl, extraordinary design and manufacture techniques have to be brought to bear on motor design. You end up with an expensive small package. The classic example is the little ATC SCM 7 at $1000 per pair and worth every penny, where WAF is an overriding issue.

I hope this has explained the close cluster in in the spread is speaker sensitivities and bass extensions.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Really? Tell that to my Maggies. They present a fairly eloquent argument that you're barking up the wrong tree.
That's a fair point, though given your mention above of a "well-designed speaker" inapt.

True, Maggies, and similar panel-type speakers with an etched diaphragm lots of contact to the air as opposed to a coil of wire operating in a small between two pieces of metal, may well be an exception to the rule I stated above.

However, Maggies sound so awful to me that I'm not inclined to care. Vertically stretched imaging, bad car stereo upper bass, and Venetian blinding in the midrange as one moves laterally. If one prefers such speakers, nobody's wrong on one's own preference. But I strongly dislike them. And one cannot seriously argue that their measured performance is in the same class as KEF Reference, Revel Ultima, Gradient Revolution, etc.

Eminent Technology's big planars, like the LFT-6, perform a little bit better than the best Maggies. But they're still unappealing-sounding to me.

Good engineering can compensate for virtually any problems in the real world.
In this case, good engineering is mains that trade off bass extension for higher efficiency in a given cabinet volume, supported by multiple subwoofers distributed around the room. If one is going for really high SPL, one should also look for bass drivers designed with thermal management as a top priority, such as JBL's 2256G/W15GTi (dual-opposed 3" coils, more heat-sinking than most amps).
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Frankly, DS, I could care less about your personal opinions.

Since you can't see that efficiency is a design tradeoff to satisfy Hoffman's Iron Law, I have no choice but to accept rhe fact that you will choose to ignore anything which doesn't suit your narrow sense of what you like.

In other words, your personal bias' are showing. Pull up your pants.

If that's your intent here, I can see where we will have our hands full keeping the newbies from buying your line of BS.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
Since you can't see that efficiency is a design tradeoff to satisfy Hoffman's Iron Law,
Oh, really?

So I didn't write above, "In this case, good engineering is mains that trade off bass extension for higher efficiency in a given cabinet volume [emph. added], supported by multiple subwoofers distributed around the room."?

Thanks for informing me that I forgot to add an important and material point.

(Oh, wait, I didn't forget to write that above.)

I have no choice but to accept rhe fact that you will choose to ignore anything which doesn't suit your narrow sense of what you like.

In other words, your personal bias' are showing. Pull up your pants.
Sounds like nothing so much as projection from a Maggie fan, chagrined that somebody doesn't like his precious sunblockers...

But yes, my personal bias towards fidelity to the input signal is indeed showing. I can understand why that might be discomfiting to a Maggie fan.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Oh, really?

So I didn't write above, "In this case, good engineering is mains that trade off bass extension for higher efficiency in a given cabinet volume [emph. added], supported by multiple subwoofers distributed around the room."?

Thanks for informing me that I forgot to add an important and material point.

(Oh, wait, I didn't forget to write that above.)



Sounds like nothing so much as projection from a Maggie fan, chagrined that somebody doesn't like his precious sunblockers...

But yes, my personal bias towards fidelity to the input signal is indeed showing. I can understand why that might be discomfiting to a Maggie fan.
So, what you're saying is that since you, personally, don't like my speakers so what I said proving you a bloviating sphincter is invalid, right? My example about dynamics is wrong, correct?

Hey, Richardweed. Face the fact that some people have to live in the real world and will gladly sacrifice a few watts to get good bass in a smaller enclosure.

It's too bad that in the rarified atmosphere you live in you can't see that. It's either that or it's all the methane you're inhaling from where you've got your head inserted.

Me? I'm perfectly happy with my maggies, and several others here have commented on them, too. It's too bad that you have to stoop to dissing someone's' choice in speakers in order to try to make themselves feel superior.

True class, there, BS. You do audiophiles everywhere proud.
 
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DS-21

Full Audioholic
So, what you're saying is that since you, personally, don't like my speakers so what I said proving you a bloviating sphincter is invalid, right? My example about dynamics is wrong, correct?
What part of

True, Maggies, and similar panel-type speakers with an etched diaphragm lots of contact to the air[,] as opposed to a coil of wire operating in a small [gap] between two pieces of metal, may well be an exception to the rule I stated above.
do you lack the basic reading comprehension skills to properly interpret?

However, considering how touchy you are that someone on the internet doesn't share your preference for overgrown sunshades with peaky upper bass like a bad car stereo...never mind.

Hey, Richardweed. Face the fact that some people have to live in the real world and will gladly sacrifice a few watts to get good bass in a smaller enclosure.
And they will then contend with thermal compression. Simple as that, really. Physics is physics. No amount of "engineering" can wish it away.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Face it, DS. You're too biased for any serious input on this subject.

In my experience, your intuition is mostly correct.

There are a very few speakers under ~90dB/W/m that are useful tools for serious music listening.
This is from what, page one or two? From that point on you've been trying to pevert the laws of physics to try to justify your opinion of good and bad. And opinion is all it is. There's no basis in fact. What's mor edisgusting is that you actually try to convice newbies that you actually have a valid point, which you don't. The market proves that.

There's quite a few "good" speakers that don't fit into your narrow, jaundiced view of good.

You're just peeved that Maggies single handedly make your pronouncement of dynamics wrong and made a liar out of you in ons swell foop, so you simply fall back to "well, I don't like them so they don't count".

How manly of you.

A design compromise is just that. If a design properly balances Hoffman's law to meets the engineers goals, then it's "good", whether you want to admit it or not. And, if the public likes them, then I guess they don't know good from bad either but, you know what? They don't really care what you think either.

So, please, keep your biases to yourself and not pass judgment on things you're obviously incapable of impartially judging and obsessed with trying to make your point.

Don't worry. I'll be here to call you a sphincter and knock you off that high horse you rode in on when you ask for it.
 

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