Low Sensitivity Speaker Thoughts?

[somesnapper]

The grails of many folk are in the ~84db range. I'm struggling to understand how this level of sensitivity would work in most homes for both HT and various genre's of music. Is the answer simply no? Are these speakers designed to play classical music at low volumes as background noise? For instance, speakers would list 84, but depending on the drivers it could really be much lower in sensitivity such as 82db. Will these speakers clip or distort with the given 2500 watts necessary for moderate listening? Do I have this understanding wrong? Please post thoughts, links, real talk. Thx!!!

 

[markw]

Do you really think feeding just any speaker 2.5 kw is wise, or even doable?

Whike sensitivity is important, one must also concern themselves with the maximum loudness level they can achieve and how much power they can safely absorb. Those two are pretty well tied together.

This is also where the amount of air a speaker can move comes into play. Think cone size and excursion.

 

[jcl]

At 82 db/1 w/1 m sensitivity, fed 100 w at 3 meters still gets to 95 db, loud enough to cause hearing damage with sustained exposure.

Probably not a good match for 3 w set tube amp for sure.

 

[somesnapper]

I understand that... but the whole "hearing damage" issue is overblown. Only for extended periods (we're talking hours of CONSTANT sound and not millisecond peaks).

"For instance, exposure is limited to 8 hours per day at 90 dB, 4 hours per day at 95 dB, and 2 hours per day at 100 dB."
Noise Induced Hearing Loss | American Hearing Research Foundation

 

[cpp]

but the whole "hearing damage" issue is overblown

from personal experience and not sure how old you are, but I was once young and listened to loud music not to mention play guitar in a band while in college and today my hearing is pretty limited. Listening to loud music over a long time will gradually weaken the structures in the ear, and this can cause conditions such as ringing (tinnitus) I have this thanks to loud rock music. So why screw with your hearing if you can avoid it at a young age. PS: once you get Sensorineural well there is no repair unless you have some money for stem cell work so it's permanent.

But, I'm just an old guy that have been through the experience, so just turn the volume all the way up and set back and feel the music like I did and enjoy it.

Loud Music Listening

 

[PENG]

I understand that... but the whole "hearing damage" issue is overblown. Only for extended periods (we're talking hours of CONSTANT sound and not millisecond peaks).

"For instance, exposure is limited to 8 hours per day at 90 dB, 4 hours per day at 95 dB, and 2 hours per day at 100 dB."
Noise Induced Hearing Loss | American Hearing Research Foundation

That does not say no damage under such exposures! Those figures are there to protect workers working in noisy environment so it is highly likely some sort of "occupational" compromise has been allowed. You may need to do more research to find out what the limits (non occupational ones) are for no permanent hearing loss/damage of any sort, that is if you absolutely don't want to take such risks for the sake of enjoying your audio system at louder (relatively speaking) level.

Hearing loss aside, a 82db/w/m speaker does not necessarily mean it can produce the volume you need if power is not an issue. It could have a maximum continuous rating of as little as 100W or less, so that may be the first thing you need to find out from the manufacturer before spending money on high power amps.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

The grails of many folk are in the ~84db range. I'm struggling to understand how this level of sensitivity would work in most homes for both HT and various genre's of music. Is the answer simply no? Are these speakers designed to play classical music at low volumes as background noise? For instance, speakers would list 84, but depending on the drivers it could really be much lower in sensitivity such as 82db. Will these speakers clip or distort with the given 2500 watts necessary for moderate listening? Do I have this understanding wrong? Please post thoughts, links, real talk. Thx!!!

Too many variables that we do not know to answer your question. How was the speaker sensitivity rated? (anechoic, semi anechoic, in-room ?) How much power can the speaker handle? What is the size of the room and the listening distance? How loudly do you like to listen?

You could have a sensitivity of 84db anechoic with power handling of 400 watts and a listening distance of 6 feet and you only want background music or a sensitivity of 84db in room with power handling of 150 watts, a listening distance of 14 feet and like rock concert volume levels... very different scenarios.

Someone else can do the math I need to go power wash the house....

 

[DS-21]

The grails of many folk are in the ~84db range. I'm struggling to understand how this level of sensitivity would work in most homes for both HT and various genre's of music. Is the answer simply no?

In my experience, your intuition is mostly correct.

There are a very few speakers under ~90dB/W/m that are useful tools for serious music listening.

 

[FirstReflection]

I'm not exactly sure what the query is here. There are certainly many, many speakers with higher efficiency than 82dB/1 Watt/1 meter.

That said, an 82dB/1 Watt/1 meter speaker would be perfectly fine as a nearfield monitor - designed to be listened to from 1-3 feet away. At 3 feet (or about 1 meter) distance, a mere 2 Watts would be sufficient to create the average 85dB SPL of "reference" volume. 20 Watts would be needed to hit 95dB. And short-term 200 Watt peaks would be necessary to hit the 105dB SPL peaks of reference volume. All of that seems entirely doable and reasonable.

At 2 meters (a little over 6 feet away) in a mid-field setting, you'd basically need to double all of those Wattage figures in order to maintain reference output. While, in an anechoic setting, you'd drop 6dB in SPL for every doubling of distance, in any real room, the actual drop in SPL is about 3-4dB. So around 4 Watts for 85dB reference average. Around 40 Watts for 95dB output. And around 400 Watts of short-term peak Wattage for the 105dB peaks. Still doable for a lot of speakers and amps.

At any distance greater than that, it's simply a case where the speakers were not really designed for that sort of distance. An 82dB/1 Watt/ 1 meter speaker is simply only suited to mid or nearfield listening - at least at reference volume levels.

So is an 82dB/1 Watt/1 meter speaker a good choice for a large home theater or even a medium-sized home theater with a 10 or 12 foot distance from the listening position to the speakers? No. You'd want a more efficient speaker - and there are thankfully plenty of good choices.

But there's nothing "wrong" with an 82dB/1 Watt/1 meter speaker. It's just suited to nearfield listening is all, perhaps 2 meter mid-field listening in a pinch.

 

[ski2xblack]

If you're lazy and have an spl meter, here is a calculator that will do the math for you:

Peak SPL Calculator

Keep in mind that back in the beginning, primordial age of hi-fi, amp power was at a premium, so considerable attention was paid to sensitivity. Amp power is no longer at a premium, and most have wives who prefer not to have speakers-as-furniture. So now speakers with lower dynamic range limits that are necessarily driven harder are the norm. Many exhibit superior performance in other areas, such as smoother/flatter freq response, deeper bass per cabinet volume, etc.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and any self respecting Audioholic should have multiple systems employing a variety of approaches.

 

[somesnapper]

What are the downsides to amping lower sensitivity speakers?
Such as audio quality or limits of said speakers?
Great info guys. Thank you

 

[ski2xblack]

What are the downsides to amping lower sensitivity speakers?
Such as audio quality or limits of said speakers?

Not really 'downsides' per se, but limitations that should be considered. Lower sensitivity speakers will be operating nearer to the top end of their performance envelope, with less room to spare in terms of dynamic range and absolute spl, increased driver movement and driver induced distortions, and approaching their power handling limits, all while fighting against the requisite increase in amp power to achieve the desired spl. Those limits may be perfectly fine for some situations, as pointed out by FirstReflection, but the speakers are invariably driven harder. Continuing with his example, the 82db/w/m speakers would likely require power beyond their capacity if used for mid-field or larger listening distances, and even before they reach their absolute limits they'll be working extra hard; they might sound sublime nearfield, however. Higher sensitivity drivers on the other hand, at least for typical domestic use, operate well down in the low end of their operational envelope, with lower driver induced distorion, and comparaby unrestricted dynamic range (that's a biggie when it comes to emotional impact of music).

 

[DS-21]

What are the downsides to amping lower sensitivity speakers?

Sonically, inferior reproduction of the dynamics in the source material, due to thermal compression.

And otherwise, lower energy efficiency.

 

[markw]

Sonically, inferior reproduction of the dynamics in the source material, due to thermal compression.

And otherwise, lower energy efficiency.

Not true with a well designed speaker.

 

[somesnapper]

What's thermal compression?
Mark can you elaborate?

 

[ski2xblack]

What's thermal compression?

High power through voice coils causes them to heat up. Their electrical properties change as the voice coil temp goes up, with the results being a disproportionate and progressively smaller increase in volume as ever increasing amounts of power are applied. Extreme case, this can lead to melted voice coils, if the woofers don't self destruct from exceeding their mechanical limits first. While all drivers exhibit thermal compression, you can see how lower sensitivity speakers run into this issue sooner than more sensitive speakers do.

 

[markw]

What's thermal compression?
Mark can you elaborate?

Are you asking me? Got google? HERE ya go. Have a ball, or two.

 

[somesnapper]

You mentioned that a well designed speaker would fare better

 

[markw]

Better than what? A poorly designed speaker? Yes.

You mentioned that a well designed speaker would fare better

What's your point? You're starting to look like a troll here.

 

[somesnapper]

Mark - I asked a question and I'm trying to learn here which is the whole point of the beginner forum. DS-21 wrote "View Post Sonically, inferior reproduction of the dynamics in the source material, due to thermal compression". and you wrote "Not true with a well designed speaker."

I'm trying to understand what constitutes a well designed low sensitivty speaker so that I can know what to look for. The answer inst obtainable via google and I tried.

So once again, enough with the tough act. Stop being so sensitive and keep the e-thuggery down to a minimum. If you dont have anything positive to contribute to the thread then dont post.