Sub or speakers for low freq..

[psbfan9]

This seems to involve both speakers and sub, but I'm posting here. I have EMP E55Ti's for fronts and an Audio Pro Sub Evidence MKII,

http://www.audiopro.com/sites/audiopro.com/files/expired_product_folders/SubEvidence_MKII_productinfo_eng.pdf

I'm running the towers 'full range', so when listening to music the sub doesn't come on and the speakers handle all the low frequencies and the sub just sits there. I don't listen at loud, concert type levels, and I haven't noticed the bass from the towers sounding muddy or distorted.
The sub does come on when watching tv or movies.
Also, does running the speakers full range put more stress on the avr or take power away from other speakers? ( receiver Onkyo 608)

I have been wanting to get a Rythmic F12 for no other than wanting one. I know you guys love to spend other peoples money, but, would it be a waste of money to get this or any other sub with the current settings?

Or

Should I set the towers to crossover to the sub at 80hz like the surrounds and center speakers to get use out of my sub?

Listening habits: Music; two channel or when Xover, 2.1. TV/movies; dolby digital or what ever surround setting I think will sound best for the movie.

Thanks.

Barry

 

[Irvrobinson]

It doesn't seem like the point should be to get use out of some component, the point should be the best sound quality.

Have you experimented with using the 80Hz crossover?

It might be you're not hearing a big improvement with the sub because you don't have a very capable one. The Rythmik might be a big improvement, and then you might want to use the sub on everything. I suspect this is actually the case.

As for wanting a component just because you want it, lots of people have that disease here. It is not fatal, but it is expensive to treat.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I say set your towers to small & crossover to 80Hz, and increase your sub level to 3dB above the rest.

Of course, nothing will ever stop you from just simply wanting more.

Name of the game, man. Name of the game.

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree with Irv, you should experiment with the crossover if you haven't and my best guess would be that if you don't notice a huge difference between sub and no sub it's because the sub isn't very good. Those emps are good speakers, but theres no question in my mind that they are lacking in the low bass when you compare using them alone to using them with a good subwoofer.

Adding a sub like the rhythmic F12, HSU vtf-15, svs PB-12, or velo optimum 12 should give you a whole lot more clean powerful bass.

 

[agarwalro]

Have your thought of taking some room measurements? If not, I'd recommend an SPL meter as the next purchase.

 

[theJman]

As for wanting a component just because you want it, lots of people have that disease here. It is not fatal, but it is expensive to treat.

Now that's funny, and true as it turns out...

 

[markw]

I'm confused... Are you saying that your current "main" can't handle the bass properly to where the subwoofer kicks in? If so, then out mains aren't up to the task assigned them and you may need to raise the crossover/low pass filter to where the sub kicks in higher. Of course, this will entail the long, ardourous process of getting them to blend seamlessly all over again.

I had my sub kick in around 50 -55 hz when I ran it with my maggie 1.6's, which ran full range.

Of course, the option to replace your mains with something more capable of plumbing the depths to where a sub can kick in still remains.

But, if the mains do quote well to where the sub currently takes over then I'd say you're jake and are just looking for trouble.

Just because the restaurant puts a full shaker of salt on your table doesn't mean you need to use it all to get the rght flavor.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm running the towers 'full range', so when listening to music the sub doesn't come on and the speakers handle all the low frequencies and the sub just sits there. I don't listen at loud, concert type levels, and I haven't noticed the bass from the towers sounding muddy or distorted.

Then you need to play around in the settings. On my marantz receiver the setting is "Bass Mix: Both" - rather than LFE or whatever. Also disengage any filters on the subwoofer itself.

Also, does running the speakers full range put more stress on the avr or take power away from other speakers? ( receiver Onkyo 608)

Not meaningfully... these speakers are basically 10 ohm below 80hz.

I have been wanting to get a Rythmic F12 for no other than wanting one. I know you guys love to spend other peoples money, but, would it be a waste of money to get this or any other sub with the current settings?

Well.. an FV12 or FV15 would make more sense.

Should I set the towers to crossover to the sub at 80hz like the surrounds and center speakers to get use out of my sub?

That depends on the room and SPL demands.

 

[psbfan9]

It doesn't seem like the point should be to get use out of some component, the point should be the best sound quality.

Have you experimented with using the 80Hz crossover?

It might be you're not hearing a big improvement with the sub because you don't have a very capable one. The Rythmik might be a big improvement, and then you might want to use the sub on everything. I suspect this is actually the case.

As for wanting a component just because you want it, lots of people have that disease here. It is not fatal, but it is expensive to treat.

I have changed the towers to 80hz and I'm trying it out.

Yeah, I say set your towers to small & crossover to 80Hz, and increase your sub level to 3dB above the rest.

Of course, nothing will ever stop you from just simply wanting more.

Name of the game, man. Name of the game.

there's no setting for large or small on my receiver, only 20hz to I think 150hz and a 'full range' setting. I set the towers to 80hz and upped the sub level to 3dB higher than everything else as you suggested.

Have your thought of taking some room measurements? If not, I'd recommend an SPL meter as the next purchase.

I have considered getting an SPL meter. Any suggestions on brand or where to get one? Would something from Radio Shack be good enough?

I'm confused... Are you saying that your current "main" can't handle the bass properly to where the subwoofer kicks in?

No. The sub isn't kicking on when the speakers are being run 'full range'.

Then you need to play around in the settings. On my marantz receiver the setting is "Bass Mix: Both" - rather than LFE or whatever. Also disengage any filters on the subwoofer itself.



Not meaningfully... these speakers are basically 10 ohm below 80hz.



Well.. an FV12 or FV15 would make more sense.



That depends on the room and SPL demands.

Okay thanks. I'm going to look at SPL meters. It was the FV12 I was looking at not the F12 as I said in the original post.

 

[GranteedEV]

II have considered getting an SPL meter. Any suggestions on brand or where to get one? Would something from Radio Shack be good enough?

I would get the Galaxy ones, but I would consider a measurement microphone /mic preamp setup more useful than SPL meters are. While they won't tell you the absolute SPL, they'll tell you everything else.

 

[timoteo]

When you have the crossover set to a # it is the same thing as setting to Small. When you have them set to FullRange that is the same as setting them to Large. Play around with different crossover points to see what blends the sub in best.

If you just set the sub 3dB higher than the speakers value in the receiver that doesn't mean the sub is actually 3dB higher. You need an SPL meter as you know. This will tell you what trim dB each speaker & sub should be at so they are all the same dB to you when seated. THEN you can up the sub level 3dB if you want.

The SPL meter may tell you that your mains should be at say 0dB & your sub at -6dB in order for them to be equal in dB. The you can up the sub to -3dB & it would be 3dB higher than the mains even though the VALUE is less. In this case, IF you had the sub at +3dB with the mains at 0dB you would actually be 9dB higher which would add a lot of stress to the sub.

I just wanted to clarify the recommendation to try running the sub 3dB hot. Not sure how experienced the OP is with these settings & what they mean. I hope this helped you out more than it confused you!!!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Then you need to play around in the settings. On my marantz receiver the setting is "Bass Mix: Both" - rather than LFE or whatever. Also disengage any filters on the subwoofer itself.
....

Yes, I second this. If your music is not from a BD that also uses the .1 ch, most likely all other sources do not send any low freq to the LFE channel unless you change the receiver setup like in mine I need to set it to 'double bass,' a big pain but surely helps with the Telarc 1812 Overture

 

[agarwalro]

I have considered getting an SPL meter. Any suggestions on brand or where to get one? Would something from Radio Shack be good enough?

There was a time when the RS meter was the only cost effective option, but that is no longer the case.

The RS meter is inaccurate, but, there are correction files available online. It is good enough for basic calibration. The Galaxy CM140 is the popular alternative and it is considerably more accurate, but still needs a correction file. Here's a writeup comparing the two.

As Grant mentioned, the ideal device would be a measurement mic combined with a SPL meter to calibrate its reading for absolute SPL. Then again, this configuration is a lot more involved than you might want to commit to .

 

[GranteedEV]

There was a time when the RS meter was the only cost effective option, but that is no longer the case.

The RS meter is inaccurate, but, there are correction files available online. It is good enough for basic calibration. The Galaxy CM140 is the popular alternative and it is considerably more accurate, but still needs a correction file. Here's a writeup comparing the two.

As Grant mentioned, the ideal device would be a measurement mic combined with a SPL meter to calibrate its reading for absolute SPL. Then again, this configuration is a lot more involved than you might want to commit to .

Well the microphone can still do relative SPLs between speakers. I use my ears as an "absolute" SPL meter

"Way Too Loud "
"Too Loud"
"Loud"
"Way too quiet"

And never anything in between

 

[yveletnik]

There was a time when the RS meter was the only cost effective option, but that is no longer the case.

The RS meter is inaccurate, but, there are correction files available online. It is good enough for basic calibration. The Galaxy CM140 is the popular alternative and it is considerably more accurate, but still needs a correction file. Here's a writeup comparing the two.

As Grant mentioned, the ideal device would be a measurement mic combined with a SPL meter to calibrate its reading for absolute SPL. Then again, this configuration is a lot more involved than you might want to commit to .

Just use your audyssey mic, connect it directly to mic port on your PC, use HDMI port (or whatever) on PC to generate tones/sweeps from REW (free software). I think you can calibrate SPL meter in REW to around 70Db (by using test tone generator on receiver) just to put something in. Then you can change setting on receiver or sub (or unplug speakers if you only want to see sub, just don't short them ), rerun sweeps and see how it will affect FR. You not going to be perfectly accurate, but relative sweeps will give you exact picture of what the setting are doing...

you can find detailed info about using REW on Home Theater Forum - Home Theater Systems - HomeTheaterShack, just skip the parts that tell you to buy extra hardware.

Completely free solution...

 

[psbfan9]

I just wanted to clarify the recommendation to try running the sub 3dB hot. Not sure how experienced the OP is with these settings & what they mean. I hope this helped you out more than it confused you!!!

Yes, I understand. This was very helpful. Thanks Timoteo!

Yes, I second this. If your music is not from a BD that also uses the .1 ch, most likely all other sources do not send any low freq to the LFE channel unless you change the receiver setup like in mine I need to set it to 'double bass,' a big pain but surely helps with the Telarc 1812 Overture

Okay, thanks. So setting 'doublebass' isn't too much bass? Like I said, I'm not a bass fiend, but I like it to be there when needed. By that I mean I want the bass to sound 'musical' not boomy except for explosions in a movies, then I want to feel it.. If that makes sense

The RS meter is inaccurate, but, there are correction files available online. It is good enough for basic calibration. The Galaxy CM140 is the popular alternative and it is considerably more accurate, but still needs a correction file. Here's a writeup comparing the two.

As Grant mentioned, the ideal device would be a measurement mic combined with a SPL meter to calibrate its reading for absolute SPL. Then again, this configuration is a lot more involved than you might want to commit to .

Thanks for the link!

Just use your audyssey mic, connect it directly to mic port on your PC, use HDMI port (or whatever) on PC to generate tones/sweeps from REW (free software). I think you can calibrate SPL meter in REW to around 70Db (by using test tone generator on receiver) just to put something in. Then you can change setting on receiver or sub (or unplug speakers if you only want to see sub, just don't short them ), rerun sweeps and see how it will affect FR. You not going to be perfectly accurate, but relative sweeps will give you exact picture of what the setting are doing...

you can find detailed info about using REW on Home Theater Forum - Home Theater Systems - HomeTheaterShack, just skip the parts that tell you to buy extra hardware.

Completely free solution...

NICE! This may be more than I want to do, but I'm just being lazy. I never would have of considered hooking the audysses mic up to the computer. I am going to try thanks for the tip about the software!

So far I'm just using my ears and changing thexsettings by what sounds best to me. I changed the the +3dB setting because it was too much for me. I have it at 0dB now and it's much better.

I want to thank everyone for the help!!

 

[GranteedEV]

Okay, thanks. So setting 'doublebass' isn't too much bass? Like I said, I'm not a bass fiend, but I like it to be there when needed. By that I mean I want the bass to sound 'musical' not boomy except for explosions in a movies, then I want to feel it.. If that makes sense

Even if it gave a, let's say 3db lift over the bass region, at those frequencies it would be barely perceptable. What would be perceptable would be the smoothing of room modes and the consequent 10-15db peaks and dips. You can always lower the sub level afterwards if it seems like too much, but it probably won't. As usual - sub placement is paramount.

 

[agarwalro]

Just use your audyssey mic, connect it directly to mic port on your PC, use HDMI port (or whatever) on PC to generate tones/sweeps from REW (free software). I think you can calibrate SPL meter in REW to around 70Db (by using test tone generator on receiver) just to put something in. Then you can change setting on receiver or sub (or unplug speakers if you only want to see sub, just don't short them ), rerun sweeps and see how it will affect FR. You not going to be perfectly accurate, but relative sweeps will give you exact picture of what the setting are doing...

The only issue with using the bundled Audessy mic is that there is no corrections for its inaccuracies (like there are published files for RS or Galaxy). Even in Room Eq Wiz when using a mic, the calibration (aka. correction) file needs to be used. This alone makes it a no go situation.

Ignoring the aforementioned issue (I honestly don't see how one can ignore it and proceed with REW), it can be used to get relative SPL since the assumed 70dB could be 60 or 100dB absolute.

 

[yveletnik]

The only issue with using the bundled Audessy mic is that there is no corrections for its inaccuracies (like there are published files for RS or Galaxy). Even in Room Eq Wiz when using a mic, the calibration (aka. correction) file needs to be used. This alone makes it a no go situation.

Ignoring the aforementioned issue (I honestly don't see how one can ignore it and proceed with REW), it can be used to get relative SPL since the assumed 70dB could be 60 or 100dB absolute.

True, the absolute measurements will not be perfectly accurate, but relative sweeps after changing settings will show you what the settings are actually affecting.
After I compared my Audisey mic to EMC8000/per-amp combo it was only up to 3Db off and only in 800Hz+ region.

If you want ideal measurements for free the REW has a process of creating a custom calibrations file (you would need to borrow a calibrated mic/pre-amp from somewhere). After I made that custom calibration file my Audisey mic measures within 1Db of EMC8000/per-amp combo.

At the end the difference was so small that for home use Audisey mic is plenty.

 

[caper26]

For my 2.1, I run my towers Large AND I have sub selected to ON as well. I use the sub's XO since AVR is setting mains to full range (Large). The reason for this is that your room affects the low freqs more than any other. Having more than one source for bass (mains AND sub) will even out the rooms response in the low end (less of those loud & quiet spots as you walk around). I also had to set the phase to 180 because you want both the mains and the sub to work together, and I could clearly hear a difference in changing the phase for the sub. My 2 cents...