Paradigm Signature Sub 2 Subwoofer Review

[funky waves]

If a single 18.3 outputs as much as two 18.0 from 14-40Hz, will two 18.3 output as much as four 18.0 from 14-40Hz?

Yes they will.

How does something like this sound;
3x18" TSAD18, with specially designed Neodymium motor with nearly twice the motor strength as the standard version(BL~40TM)
8500watt amplifier with;
Energy "recycling" where the amplifier reabsorbs the back EMF from the driver(s) to be reused.
Phantom driver parameters(the amplifier has negative output impeadance) so the amplifier can make the drivers behave as though their parameters are what is programmed in.
"differential pressure control" a sensor that measures the internal and external air pressures generated and adjusts the output signal accordingly(like servo but rather than measuring the drivers cone it measures the air pressure)
Full DSP
All in an enclosure ~25" cube

 

[haraldo]

There is one issue with sub 1 and sub 2 and this is a major issue, if you cannot deal with this properly the sub's are not gonna work well for you, this is something not covered at all in the AH review nor has anyone mentioned anything about this here... this is the same for all DSP based subs and there is no way around it as far as I see...

Al the DSP based subs employ a AD and a DA converted, this must be so becase the DSP of course require the corrections to be performed in the digital domain, and as you have an analog signal and the Class D amp takes an analog signal, you need AD and DA stages. The AD and DA process takes time, and this means there will be a delay of the signal, from what I read elsewhere it seems then that the sub virtually is 30 feet further away from you than what it really is, this means you need a digital delay to you main speakers that will correct for this, so signal will be delayed to main speakers the same amout of time.

Because of this you cannot utilize SUB 1 or SUB 2 in an analog only system, as then you aon't be able to make the delay to main speakers, and timing of signal will be messed up.

If used where you have digital sources and processors you must be able to make the correct amount of delay to main speakers, if not.... this is not gonna work properly...

Small thing you may say this is, perhaps it is, but if you spend almost $10k on each sub this better be in order

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes they will.

How does something like this sound;
3x18" TSAD18, with specially designed Neodymium motor with nearly twice the motor strength as the standard version(BL~40TM)
8500watt amplifier with;
Energy "recycling" where the amplifier reabsorbs the back EMF from the driver(s) to be reused.
Phantom driver parameters(the amplifier has negative output impeadance) so the amplifier can make the drivers behave as though their parameters are what is programmed in.
"differential pressure control" a sensor that measures the internal and external air pressures generated and adjusts the output signal accordingly(like servo but rather than measuring the drivers cone it measures the air pressure)
Full DSP
All in an enclosure ~25" cube

I'd like a passive non-powered version of this triple-18" pretty please (don't ask why).

 

[haraldo]

I'd like a passive non-powered version of this triple-18" pretty please (don't ask why).

why....?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

why....?

Why...........you............

I like being different.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

3x18" TSAD18...All in an enclosure ~25" cube

What will you call it?

18.4?

Or The 1812.

 

[haraldo]

Why...........you............

I like being different.

I like it, very good answer

 

[haraldo]

Martin Logan discontinued their statement E2 subwoofers, up until now in my imagination I believed them to be the most "crazy" commercially available subs ever made.....

Perhaps even more than the sub2

Perhaps four stacked sub 1's would do?

 

[funky waves]

I'd like a passive non-powered version of this triple-18" pretty please (don't ask why).

That would be a definite possibility, could be ordered anytime really as a custom order, as the driver design is basically done, we could even do a triangular enclosure(be wider overall than the 25" cube style), we've done it before. The powered version is what will take the development time and cost, to setup the programming, cabinet integration, etc.

Powered or non powered they would be very expensive, the Neo alone costs almost as much as the standard TSAD18 driver does complete

 

[haraldo]

That would be a definite possibility, could be ordered anytime really as a custom order, as the driver design is basically done, we could even do a triangular enclosure(be wider overall than the 25" cube style), we've done it before. The powered version is what will take the development time and cost, to setup the programming, cabinet integration, etc.

Powered or non powered they would be very expensive, the Neo alone costs almost as much as the standard TSAD18 driver does complete

I kind of find it quite interesting what you do.....

 

[GranteedEV]

If a single 18.3 outputs as much as two 18.0 from 14-40Hz, will two 18.3 output as much as four 18.0 from 14-40Hz?

Probably, but four (spaced) subs is still a better idea than two IMO. At some point it's not about the output... it's about the best possible frequency response.

we could even do a triangular enclosure(be wider overall than the 25" cube style), we've done it before.

Nate, that is a hexagon.

I'd like a passive non-powered version of this triple-18" pretty please (don't ask why).

I hope you're not thinking of driving these super subs with your 100 watt ATI amps....

 

[gene]

There is one issue with sub 1 and sub 2 and this is a major issue, if you cannot deal with this properly the sub's are not gonna work well for you, this is something not covered at all in the AH review nor has anyone mentioned anything about this here... this is the same for all DSP based subs and there is no way around it as far as I see...

Al the DSP based subs employ a AD and a DA converted, this must be so becase the DSP of course require the corrections to be performed in the digital domain, and as you have an analog signal and the Class D amp takes an analog signal, you need AD and DA stages. The AD and DA process takes time, and this means there will be a delay of the signal, from what I read elsewhere it seems then that the sub virtually is 30 feet further away from you than what it really is, this means you need a digital delay to you main speakers that will correct for this, so signal will be delayed to main speakers the same amout of time.

Because of this you cannot utilize SUB 1 or SUB 2 in an analog only system, as then you aon't be able to make the delay to main speakers, and timing of signal will be messed up.

If used where you have digital sources and processors you must be able to make the correct amount of delay to main speakers, if not.... this is not gonna work properly...

Small thing you may say this is, perhaps it is, but if you spend almost $10k on each sub this better be in order

I seriously doubt the DSP delay is more than a few ms which would equate to a distance of 2-3ft. I've never run across a DSP sub that had more delay than that! This is a NON issue as evident when Josh measured the summed response of the sub with his main speakers in his room and didn't have any issues integrating them.

 

[GranteedEV]

off the top of my head 100hz takes 10ms itself to form, right?

I guess you could say I'm not convinced much of a difference would be made, as long as you're not getting crazy wild phasey cancellations.

 

[funky waves]

Probably, but four (spaced) subs is still a better idea than two IMO. At some point it's not about the output... it's about the best possible frequency response.

That can be true, but sometimes going from two to four makes little to no difference, in some cases I have found it to make the frequency response worse, every environment is different.

Nate, that is a hexagon.

I meant triangular opposing driver configuration, truncated triangle would also be an accurate description of the shape.

 

[haraldo]

I seriously doubt the DSP delay is more than a few ms which would equate to a distance of 2-3ft. I've never run across a DSP sub that had more delay than that! This is a NON issue as evident when Josh measured the summed response of the sub with his main speakers in his room and didn't have any issues integrating them.

I'm not sure I understand this to be honest.....

I do have a close friend who's a former professional sound engineer working with some of the more obstinate people out there..... it's his very clear claim that the DSP based sub's are really not so good if you can't cater for the delays that's being propagated as part of the AD / DA process.

But perhaps he has better ears and is more fuzzy about this than the rest of us, at least according to what he say it's an audible obfuscation happening as part of this process...

I can't prove this myself, but I just believe the ear is extremely sensible to timing errors......

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hope you're not thinking of driving these super subs with your 100 watt ATI amps....

Let's put it this way.

With dual RBH SX-1010N, using the AT2004, I have to set the Denon AVR to -12dB on the Sub level. And it's still 83dBC peak from 3 meters out!

With four little Velodyne SC10 passive subs, using AT6012 amp, setting the Denon AVR to 0.00dB gets me 83dBC peak from 3 meters out.

That is obviously one drawback to passive subs.

If I get dual passive Funkywaves 18.3, I would probably need to get a subwoofer amp or some amp with volume/gain control because using just the Denon AVR @ -12dB would probably be 93dBC?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Probably, but four (spaced) subs is still a better idea than two IMO. At some point it's not about the output... it's about the best possible frequency response.

So what are you saying?

I should get four 18.3?

 

[haraldo]

So what are you saying?

I should get four 18.3?

Are you sure it's enough?

 

[3db]

I still want that Sub 1

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are you sure it's enough?

Maybe.

Know what I really want for my ultimate room?

Funky Audio 1812: Triple-18" hexagonal subs x 4.