$3-5k, floorstanders or monitors?

[saeyedoc]

Thinking about replacing my '87 Vandersteen 2Cs at some point. 5.1 system with Vandersteen V2W sub in a 25x23' room with the listening position about 1/2 way back, speakers on the short side. Room is open to another room on one side. It's not a dedicated room, used most of the time for casual HDTV or Blu-ray watching, but I like to crank it when I'm listening to music. Tastes range from classic rock to jazz including multi-channel concerts.
Using an Oppo 93 into an Anthem MRX300 into a Parasound HCA-2205A.
I'm thinking that since I'm using a sub for the real low end, it may be a better value to go with a stand-mounted monitor vs a floorstander. Less money into cabinetry and more into drivers. Also makes for easier placement.
Any opinions and recommendations?
Considering Salk (Songtower RT up to Soundscape M7 possibly), Selah Tempestra, Cirrus Vapor, Ascend Sierra Tower with Raal, Phils, but open to other suggestions.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm thinking that since I'm using a sub for the real low end, it may be a better value to go with a stand-mounted monitor vs a floorstander. Less money into cabinetry and more into drivers. Also makes for easier placement.

Nothing with a stand mount, but you'll want something that can still displace some air in the midbass, for a seemless transition to subs. I'm not "with" the idea of forcing a little 6.5" midbass to mate to subwoofers.

My suggestions would be Gedlee Abbeys, JBL LSR6332, Vapor Arcus (not cirrus), and Philharmonic 2.

 

[j_garcia]

I'd go Joseph Audio RM22XL or RM25XL. I don't see placement as much different with the exception of height. I like stand mounted bookshelf speakers, but if I were dropping that much coin, I'd probably go floor standers. Cabinet or not, you take up the same floor space. Their bookshelf, the RM7XL is also quite excellent. They also have the Cinergy 6.1, but I haven't heard those. If you can find a dealer near by, give this brand a listen.

http://josephaudio.com/JosephAudio/Welcome_To_Joseph_Audio.html

Sitting roughly in the center of a nearly square footprint room is not ideal for sound.

 

[saeyedoc]

Nothing with a stand mount, but you'll want something that can still displace some air in the midbass, for a seemless transition to subs. I'm not "with" the idea of forcing a little 6.5" midbass to mate to subwoofers.

My suggestions would be Gedlee Abbeys, JBL LSR6332, Vapor Arcus (not cirrus), and Philharmonic 2.

Do you mean nothing wrong with a stand mount?
Not much info on the Arcus out there, any idea of size, drivers, price?
Is the concern with the Cirrus due to the size of the room?

 

[GranteedEV]

Do you mean nothing wrong with a stand mount?

If you're using a sub, you don't need the enclosure to extend response. Sealed enclosures are smaller and can be stand mounted often. But you do still want speakers that can play with low distortion at high SPLs. The LSR 6332s for example are stand mounts, although they are not tiny little bookshelves.

Not much info on the Arcus out there, any idea of size, drivers, price?

Midwoofer - Acoustic Elegance TD10M + Apollo Upgrade (Full copper sleeve + Triple Shorting Rings)
Midtweeter - Beyma TPL-150H Pleated Diaphram Planar

Can be made as either a standmount, or a deeper reaching floorstander. For your purposes the Stand Mount makes more sense.

I believe it is around $4500-5000 but don't quote me on that. Your best bet is to ask Ryan yourself and lay out what you feel in detail. That's not a driver complement you could possibly go wrong with, nor is that a speaker designer you could really go wrong with.

Is the concern with the Cirrus due to the size of the room?

Indeed. Like I said, you're just asking a lot out of a 6.5" midbass.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Less money into cabinetry and more into drivers.

One word comes to mind: Philharmonic.

Most of the money is in the drivers, not cabinets or profit & markup.

Dennis Murphy also makes Philharmonic bookshelf speakers.

 

[Swerd]

I own SongTowers with the dome tweeter (my impressions and photos are linked in my signature line below), and am very familiar with Vandersteens. My brother owns a Vandersteen 5.2 system – 3As with two V2Q subwoofers, but I don't remember the center and rear speaker models. When he shopped I tagged along for fun, and we listened to the 2s for some time until he decided on the 3s.

I like the Vandys a lot, they're among the best imaging speakers I’ve known. On the downside they are at best strange looking (but you've been happy with yours for quite some time) and they are very finicky about speaker and listener position. Their sweet spot is small, but once you’ve found it, it's wonderful. Until I got the STs, the Vandy 3A was my favorite speaker.

The Salk SongTower, with either the standard ¾" dome or the ribbon tweeter, are truly excellent speakers. They are tonally well balanced, with a nearly flat frequency response, and unlike the Vandys, they have very wide sound dispersion. Their sweet spots are very wide and their imaging is excellent. I think that the ST would be a worthy replacement for your Vandys. Your room size and amp will be fine with the STs. Keep your sub, its excellent. The sound of the transmission line bass of the STs will surprise you. They also allow great flexibility in room placement for bass sound. Few, if any, people have had difficulty blending STs with their subs.

I've also heard the recently released Philharmonic Audio speakers. The Philharmonic 2, as you probably know, is the same price as the standard ST. To me, they are very close in overall sound. The Phil has deeper bass, but is a bit less sensitive. It's a 3-way speaker with black (at that price) 2-piece cabinets that need some space, especially from side walls. Your big room should not be a problem for that. People talk on and on about the RAAL ribbon tweeter, but I think the real outstanding feature of the Phils is the planar midrange. It creates a clean and detailed sound. Varying the amount of stuffing in the semi-open back cabinets allows you to vary the balance between the front wave and rear wave coming from these drivers. At Dennis Murphy's house and last July at the Capital Audiofest, I heard how this can let you change the soundstage depth, and also vary the relative front/back placement of voices or instruments. Except for the Salk SoundScapes and the DIY Statement speakers, this feature is unique.

I'm not clear if your price range is for all 5 speakers, or the front pair. If it is for the just front pair, you should also consider the Salk HT2-TL. Its more than double the price of the standard ST, but it is worth it in my opinion.

I've heard several Joseph Audio models, including the RM25XL, at audio shows. I like them, but their prices, in my opinion, are too high. The RM25XL costs, if I remember correctly, about $4000 per pair, and it sounds roughly comparable to the Salk SongTower. At that price, I'd much rather choose the Salk HT2-TL. I think the Joseph Audio Perspective is comparable in overall sound with the Salk HT2-TL, but costs much much more.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another "monitor" I like is the RBH T1 or SX-T1. I believe Gene (or RBH) said they are capable of 120dB SPL.

The new KEF R-series might also be good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Soundfield Audio monitors are another option.

 

[saeyedoc]

Yes, the budget is just for the L/R. I currently have my plasma mounted above a fireplace (I know, but no choice) with a Vienna Waltz on the mantle as a CC. I'm thinking of using 3 identical speakers for the L/C/R, since the FP is rarely ever used and is gas so it doesn't put out much heat. I could always move the CC if I have to when the fireplace is in use. That would leave me with more room to work a larger TV in there.
The nice thing about having the Vandys for so long is that almost anything will look better. I've been catching grief about the looks of them since the day I got them, but she's used to them by now.

 

[Swerd]

In my previous post, I never addressed your question about floor-standing towers vs. stand-mounted speakers. You probably know the general arguments, that larger cabinets allow for deeper bass response and that smaller cabinets are likely to be stronger and generate less cabinet resonance. In the price range you are considering, I think most speaker cabinets are well enough constructed so the second issue is not a problem with either type of cabinet.

Your room is not small, and that argues against small insensitive speakers. But your Vandy 2s are rather insensitive, and you didn't have problems with them. You didn't mention how far you sit from the speakers. In general, room volume matters for bass (roughly below 200 Hz), but above that, distance between speakers and listener matters as much if not more. I think you'll benefit more from MTM speakers in floor standing cabinets than from less sensitive 2-way or 3-way speakers in smaller cabinets. Two mid-woofers will generate more volume, at less distortion, than single mid-woofers. Your existing amp will easily drive them.

I briefly looked at the Vapor Cirrus and Selah Tempesta stand mount speaker web pages. They are very expensive, but I haven't heard them so, like you, I can only wonder how they sound. I've heard some other Selah Audio designs in the past, and I thought they were good, but not better than the Salk speakers I mentioned earlier.

I noticed you asked the same question on another audio forum, and got answers from those who insist that high sensitivity speakers played very loudly constitutes audio quality and should be substituted for less sensitive high-resolution low-distortion speakers played at more normal listening levels. I don't agree at all with that thinking and frankly wonder where it comes from. Nothing in my experience suggests that. If you ask me, I'd volunteer the idea that listening to very loud sounds for sustained time periods might cause brain damage, and that their persistent arguments are evidence for that . I wish I could offer a more rational argument against that idea, but I doubt if I'll ever listen enough at those high levels to find out.

 

[saeyedoc]

Your room is not small, and that argues against small insensitive speakers. But your Vandy 2s are rather insensitive, and you didn't have problems with them. You didn't mention how far you sit from the speakers. In general, room volume matters for bass (roughly below 200 Hz), but above that, distance between speakers and listener matters as much if not more. I think you'll benefit more from MTM speakers in floor standing cabinets than from less sensitive 2-way or 3-way speakers in smaller cabinets. Two mid-woofers will generate more volume, at less distortion, than single mid-woofers. Your existing amp will easily drive them.

.

I noticed you asked the same question on another audio forum, and got answers from those who insist that high sensitivity speakers played very loudly constitutes audio quality and should be substituted for less sensitive high-resolution low-distortion speakers played at more normal listening levels. I don't agree at all with that thinking and frankly wonder where it comes from. Nothing in my experience suggests that. If you ask me, I'd volunteer the idea that listening to very loud sounds for sustained time periods might cause brain damage, and that their persistent arguments are evidence for that. I wish I could offer a more rational argument against that idea, but I doubt if I'll ever listen enough at those high levels to find out.

It was in my OP, but easy to miss, the MLP is about 1/2 way back, 12-13' from the L/Rs. I've never run out steam with my current setup, you're right, the Vandy's are about 86db sensitivity.
I agree that I'd much rather go for high-res low-distortion speakers than high-efficiency ones played very loudly.
My system is calibrated with ARC and will usually be in the -18 to -15 range on blu-rays, maybe a little higher with music, but definitely not at reference levels. I'm 51 and want to hold onto my hearing a little longer.
I'll break out the meter this weekend to see what my levels actually are.
Thanks for everyone's input so far, keep it coming!

 

[Nuance AH]

It was in my OP, but easy to miss, the MLP is about 1/2 way back, 12-13' from the L/Rs. I've never run out steam with my current setup, you're right, the Vandy's are about 86db sensitivity.
I agree that I'd much rather go for high-res low-distortion speakers than high-efficiency ones played very loudly.
My system is calibrated with ARC and will usually be in the -18 to -15 range on blu-rays, maybe a little higher with music, but definitely not at reference levels. I'm 51 and want to hold onto my hearing a little longer.
I'll break out the meter this weekend to see what my levels actually are.
Thanks for everyone's input so far, keep it coming!

With that said then, the recommendations already given for Philharmonic, Salk and Vapor Audio still apply. I've not heard the Vapor's, but the other two offer a lot of bang for buck.

 

[saeyedoc]

Had my wife look at pictures of some of the contenders. She wants something that will blend in and not stick out so much. Didn't like the wood veneers I showed her either.
Phils did not make the cut, neither did most of the Salks.
I think my safest WAF move would be something like the Tempestra or Cirrus in black.
I'll cut her some slack since she's put up with my Vandys for so long.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Had my wife look at pictures of some of the contenders. She wants something that will blend in and not stick out so much. Didn't like the wood veneers I showed her either.
Phils did not make the cut, neither did most of the Salks.
I think my safest WAF move would be something like the Tempestra or Cirrus in black.
I'll cut her some slack since she's put up with my Vandys for so long.

You do know that DM will finish Phil3 in any veneer you like ?? Just ask him if he could match it to your existing furniture palette...

 

[Swerd]

Had my wife look at pictures of some of the contenders. She wants something that will blend in and not stick out so much. Didn't like the wood veneers I showed her either.
Phils did not make the cut, neither did most of the Salks.
I think my safest WAF move would be something like the Tempestra or Cirrus in black.
I'll cut her some slack since she's put up with my Vandys for so long.

Jim Salk will finish speakers in any way you want. He is very good at matching veneer or paint colors to samples provided by his customers.

If blending in with other furniture, floors, or fabric colors is important to your wife, involve her in the veneer and finish selection. I know of people who sent him sample blocks from a furniture manufacturer and he matched them perfectly. Don't rely only on the pictures on the web site.

Talk to Jim Salk about this, he's done this many times before.

 

[Nuance AH]

Jim Salk will finish speakers in any way you want. He is very good at matching veneer or paint colors to samples provided by his customers.

If blending in with other furniture, floors, or fabric colors is important to your wife, involve her in the veneer and finish selection. I know of people who sent him sample blocks from a furniture manufacturer and he matched them perfectly. Don't rely only on the pictures on the web site.

Talk to Jim Salk about this, he's done this many times before.

+1. Jim will make you anything you want, which is a quality I love about his products (besides their superb sound quality).

 

[saeyedoc]

I don't think it's the color and veneers that's the problem, more the size and shape, especially of the Phils.
I might be able to get away with something like the songtower.
This may be a long process, I just introduced this idea to her yesterday, she may take some time to come around. She's resisting the idea of putting an identical speaker for the center in front of the fireplace. It only gets used 1-2x/yr anyway. The only place to put the screen was above the fireplace, I currently have a Vienna Waltz on the mantle below the 50" plasma. By moving the center to something floorstanding or stand-mounted, it will leave me more space to upgrade to a larger screen at some point, and should sound a whole lot better.
Maybe it would be easier to move to another home.
Not in a rush, my current system works Ok, just looking for some improvements.

 

[cschang]

All the speakers mentioned have great merit...

But here's a plug for the Ascend Sierra Towers on your list....nobody here will deny that it isn't of equal merit to those mentioned. All things being equal, it does have a matching center, with the same driver compliment, same cabinet volume (so it isn't small), and same specs....if you ever decide to go that route.

The cabinet is vertical laminated bamboo with a nice slender look, and there are no custom veneers, so unless you get a black finish, the vertical bamboo finish shows through, just different stains and glosses. Ascend can have them custom painted to whatever you like.

 

[cschang]

BTW...there have been reports of company "reps" trying to persuade potential customers in private messages.

I can't verify this as being true...but be careful of it.