Axiom Audio LFR1100 Tower Loudspeaker Preview

[gene]

The discussion here is a $4k speaker vs a $10k speaker, I don't see any reason why a $4k speaker should not measure just as good as the more expensive one on the basic measurements. The added price tag is not about giving you a flatter response or better polar response but better performance in other aspects, like deeper bass or better macro dynamics or other things.

Agreed. Measurements are useful to ensure the product doesn't have any major flaws but they don't necessarily correlate to sound quality. They rarely reveal how a speaker misbehaves at high SPL levels. The distortion sweeps used by the NRC won't reveal improperly chosen Xover points nor do they reveal how the speaker compresses at high output.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Agreed. Measurements are useful to ensure the product doesn't have any major flaws but they don't necessarily correlate to sound quality. They rarely reveal how a speaker misbehaves at high SPL levels. The distortion sweeps used by the NRC won't reveal improperly chosen Xover points nor do they reveal how the speaker compresses at high output.

That's true about the soundstage measurements. If the speaker misbehaves even at 95db which is the max they test at, they won't show that behavior.

 

[gene]

That's true about the soundstage measurements. If the speaker misbehaves even at 95db which is the max they test at, they won't show that behavior.

Yes and I plan on writing an article showing how even a TV speaker can produce good distortion results based on how its currently being measured using sweeps like you see at Soundstage, NRC and other places.

Unfortunately there are no established standards for measuring loudspeakers and they are much more difficult to evaluate than a subwoofer or amplifier for example. I applaud Soundstage for having access to the NRC to make measurements. That's a huge advantage. But looking at the curves generated there won't give you the full picture of loudspeaker performance.

 

[3db]

The added price tag is not about giving you a flatter response or better polar response but better performance in other aspects, like deeper bass or better macro dynamics or other things.

I never mentioned specifics or measurements in my posts. But thank you for reaffirming my post in that you do expect better performance because of the price point. That's all I'm saying.

 

[3db]

Agreed. Measurements are useful to ensure the product doesn't have any major flaws but they don't necessarily correlate to sound quality. They rarely reveal how a speaker misbehaves at high SPL levels. The distortion sweeps used by the NRC won't reveal improperly chosen Xover points nor do they reveal how the speaker compresses at high output.

That sounds very subjective Gene and if measurements don't correlate with how a speaker should sound, then what do you have? I thought the linearity tests that Soundstage does at 90db showed how a speaker behaves. I don't know about you but I think 90db is fairly loud, loud enough to cause hearing damage relatively quickly. They may have not have the complete measurements but they probably provide one of the most comprehensive measurements for a publication bar none.

 

[GranteedEV]

Is it not reasonable to expect a $5K speaker to perform better than a $300? speaker?

Sure, in things like dynamics, resolution, extension, imaging, etc. Voicing however is a basic design starting point. And i'm not saying the axioms are poorly voiced - i've never heard em. I am saying that i would not call those excellent measurements regardless of price point. The measurements do suggest voicing issues in an $1800 speaker.

There are more resources available at $5K to get the critical midrange right than there is at $300 price point.

But even a $300 speaker has no excuse for a widish bandwidth upper midrange peak of even 2db. it is just a region we are too sensitive in. Compound that with an off axis flare and you've got to wonder. No axiom is not unique in its mediocrity in these regards. But it is most certainly far from excellent.

 

[3db]

Sure, in things like dynamics, resolution, extension, imaging, etc. Voicing however is a basic design starting point. And i'm not saying the axioms are poorly voiced - i've never heard em. I am saying that i would not call those excellent measurements regardless of price point. The measurements do suggest voicing issues in an $1800 speaker.



But even a $300 speaker has no excuse for a widish bandwidth upper midrange peak of even 2db. it is just a region we are too sensitive in. Compound that with an off axis flare and you've got to wonder. No axiom is not unique in its mediocrity in these regards. But it is most certainly far from excellent.

I want to first start off by saying that I don't Axiom has the best measurements. Look back at my first entry point in this discussion where I made that point. Furthermore, I' listed a few speakers by Wilson and Vienna Acoustics that measure far worse than Axiom at a very much higher price point. For so many mediocre speakers out there I don't see why Axiom is getting more than their fair share of bashing? It really is only prevalent on this site. If we bash Axiom, the we should be bashing Onkyo as well for their medicoricy in quality control and premature failures of their designs. Just saying.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Furthermore, I' listed a few speakers by Wilson and Vienna Acoustics that measure far worse than Axiom at a very much higher price point.

How was the measurements performed? I seen some comparing Ascends posted measurements against Axioms and its not fair to compared the two. Ascend uses 50db scale unsmoothed vs Axioms 120db smoothed, which makes Axiom look better.

 

[gene]

That sounds very subjective Gene and if measurements don't correlate with how a speaker should sound, then what do you have? I thought the linearity tests that Soundstage does at 90db showed how a speaker behaves. I don't know about you but I think 90db is fairly loud, loud enough to cause hearing damage relatively quickly. They may have not have the complete measurements but they probably provide one of the most comprehensive measurements for a publication bar none.

No set of measurements will truly tell you how a speaker plays into a room or how it will ultimately sound. They are useful for determining design problems however. As far as I am concerned a speaker that measures good will usually sound good but a speaker that measures bad will usually not sound good. A frequency sweep will show you if driver levels aren't matched or a wrong crossover point was chosen or if cabinet diffraction is an issue. They usually won't however reveal cabinet resonance issues however.

90dB at 1 meter is NOT very loud at all! If a speaker is 90dB sensitive at 1 watt, it will be 90dB at 1 meter with just 1 watt applied to it.

The Distortion sweeps can mask design issues such as a cone breaking up b/c it has no LPF. A sinewave sweep test to measure this problem will be unrevealing in this case. To see this problem, one must put in two frequencies simultaneously and view the output on a spectrum analyzer. (One can see distortion products as sum and difference frequencies) This is a simple process and one all audio engineers are familiar with.

That being said, I agree the Soundstage measurements are great and I envy that they have the NRC resource to do this for them. But those measurements alone don't provide the whole picture to performance.

 

[Wid]

But how does this correlate between the testing at 50db and 120db? Can the two graphs be compared ?

 

[Rustolemite]

But all those tweeters and woofers looks awesome to the average AV consumer. So more must be better. Don't forget theres also room on the top and bottom for even more woofers and tweeters

I feel sorry for the other speaker brands cause you just know that these speakers will beat out any speaker Axiom puts them against in their so called DBT. Why would I want to spend $100k on Wilsons, Focals, Revels when I can just buy the new Axioms which of course sounds similarily good

Boy you don't miss a chance to bad mouth this company do you.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Boy you don't miss a chance to bad mouth this company do you.

You have just been really late to the party that was two weeks ago, bringing back old quotes again.

For anyone that doesn't know Rustolemite has never listened to Axioms, just goes back and finds my quotes from weeks ago and does this copy paste statement did the same thing on AVS a few days ago.

 

[gene]

But how does this correlate between the testing at 50db and 120db? Can the two graphs be compared ?

I'm not sure what you mean but I suspect your talking about vertical scale resolution. I wrote an article about this:

Audio Measurements: The Useful vs the Bogus

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't see why Axiom is getting more than their fair share of bashing? It really is only prevalent on this site. If we bash Axiom, the we should be bashing Onkyo as well for their medicoricy in quality control and premature failures of their designs. Just saying.

We do bash Onkyo.

Well, you don't see other companies recommending the use of two center speakers.

DefTech gets quite a bit of bashing here, a lot more than anywhere else it seems to me. But you will not see DefTech telling anyone to use two of their center speakers at the same time.

 

[gene]

You have just been really late to the party that was two weeks ago, bringing back old quotes again.

For anyone that doesn't know Rustolemite has never listened to Axioms, just goes back and finds my quotes from weeks ago and does this copy paste statement did the same thing on AVS a few days ago.

Guys lets keep the personal bickering off this thread and focus on a tech discussion on the subject at hand which is this new Axiom speaker.

 

[Rustolemite]

You have just been really late to the party that was two weeks ago, bringing back old quotes again.

For anyone that doesn't know Rustolemite has never listened to Axioms, just goes back and finds my quotes from weeks ago and does this copy paste statement did the same thing on AVS a few days ago.

Your right I haven't listened to them yet, but man why can't you voice your displeasure ONCE about this company, why must you do so on so many forums and numerous times on each one.

That's is all I am referring to.

 

[cschang]

Your right I haven't listened to them yet, but man why can't you voice your displeasure ONCE about this company, why must you do so on so many forums and numerous times on each one.

That's is all I am referring to.

While I understand what you are getting at, but what about the opposite?

If someone is happy with a company, would you only want that person to voice about his/her pleasure once?

 

[3db]

We do bash Onkyo.

Well, you don't see other companies recommending the use of two center speakers.

DefTech gets quite a bit of bashing here, a lot more than anywhere else it seems to me. But you will not see DefTech telling anyone to use two of their center speakers at the same time.

I'm sure there's a point to your post but I'm not getting it.

 

[3db]

Can we lock this thread up and toss away the keys?

 

[fredk]

My final thoughts on all this:

1. Good speakers are about good engineering and good engineering is hard to come by.

If great speakers were about throwing a couple of more dollars at components, everybody would be building $300 speakers that measure +- 1db through their range and sounded perfect.

2. Good engineers know they are good and are not cheap.

I have never designed a speaker, but I've worked with a lot of engineers, both in the software and automotive industries. Good engineering costs good money.

Small companies usually have one engineer: the owner. Big companies like Harmon (Revel) have a lot of $ and (hopefully) very good engineers to put to design projects. They should produce superior results, measured and otherwise. When they do, they also charge for it, because the have a lot of expensive engineers they have to pay for.

3. Things that measure big, often have a subtle footprint. I first learned this when I found a 15 db mountain of a peak at 52 Hz in my room. Armed with a BFD and REW measurements I mowed that mountain down. I then sat down and put my favourite pipe organ disk on prepared to be blown away by the improvement. To say the difference was subtle would be an understatement.

4. My M80s sound good to me. On the occasions they have been directly compared to close competitors, they have stood up well. I'll listen to the LFM1100 (yuck, what a name) before I decide how good, or not, they are.