Need some advice

[Mjac]

I have been around Home Theater for quite sometime but most of my equipment has been entry to mid level except for the Oppo BDP-93 I recently purchased. I wish I was aware of this web site along time ago I would of taken the advice to start with your speakers first then build around them. I'm currently running a Pioneer 1121-k receiver and Infinity Primus speakers ie..Towers,Bookshelf,Sub and Center.. while they sound ok the sound seems to be not quite right, not as full and balanced as I would like. I have tried several times to calibrate but to no avail. I would like to change my speakers but I'm unsure which direction to go. My system is in a medium size room and I would like to start off with a pair of towers first and then add to them with center and surround latter. I would like to keep my budget around $600. I'm open to any suggestions.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hi there! Welcome

I want to start off by saying that you can certainly improve your sound with better speakers. More than any other piece of gear, your speakers make the most difference in the sound that you hear.

BUT WITH THAT SAID, I think it's really, really important to stress to you that your room and its acoustics are a full 50% of your sound system. I stress this because people very often look to upgrade their gear, they spend a good amount of money, but they wind up disappointed because they did not address the real source of their discontent, which is so often the room itself!

I don't know the exact source of your dissatisfaction in your particular case. Maybe your room is fine and it really is just a speaker upgrade that's in order. Then again, the Infinity Primus speakers are very good - especially for their price point. While you can most certainly find better speakers than the Primus (at a higher price tag), it's not as though you have crappy speakers! So that suggests to me that perhaps the real source of your discontent is your room acoustics.

It's also highly likely that a subwoofer upgrade would do a lot more for you than a front speaker upgrade right off the bat. I wouldn't say that in every case, but in your case, since your Primus speakers are already pretty good, the obvious weak link in your gear right now is the subwoofer. Especially since you say things do not sound as "full" as you would like. "Fullness" in the sound mostly comes from the midbass. Right around the area where your speakers are handing off to the sub. That crossover region can be a real tricky patch! Not only do you have a somewhat weak subwoofer, but it's also highly likely that your room acoustics and your positioning and set up are not optimal. It's entirely possible that simply optimizing your setup with the gear you already have might deliver the improvement in sound that you're looking for!

So, I'm not here to tell you not to buy new speakers. You can definitely buy new speakers and get an improvement in your sound. There ARE better speakers than the Primus. But I also don't want you to get sucked into the common thinking that a speaker upgrade is the only way forward. There's nothin worse than spending a bunch of money on new gear and hearing no real improvement! And that can happen when the speakers aren't really the problem.

So help us to help you. Post some pictures of your room. A diagram would help too. Let's figure out if maybe your room acoustics or your placement or setup is to blame. You might discover that some simple changes give you the sound you want without costing a penny! Or maybe a new subwoofer is the best solution. Or perhaps the money would be better spent on acoustic treatments for the room.

It might turn out that new speakers really are the best solution. But my goal here is just to get you to consider your entire system first so that you don't just rush out and buy new speakers, only to wind up disappointed

Hope this helps.

 

[sholling]

It would help to know where you're coming from before pointing you in a direction. For all we know you have great speakers and a too small sub and may be wasting money on speakers. What do you have now?

That said the only decent full sized towers and center in your price range that I'm aware of are Infinity's P362 and matching PC350 center which are older models that are on clearance at Crutchfield. I'd use P152 bookshelves for surrounds. That's $550 for 3.0 or $700 for 5.0 while they last.

The other option is EMP's E5Ti shorty tower which is on clearance for $275/pr but the E5Ci center will cost you $220 and the matching E5Bi bookshelves are $250 which isn't much more money but you'll want to raise the mains up a bit to get the tweeters at ear level. The totals of $595 or $745 are just a few dollars more.

A third option is Ascend Acoustics CMT-340SE. While not really a tower I've owned them and like them a lot for the price.

Disclaimer: I've listened to the Infinities but not the EMPs and have no idea which sounds better.

 

[Midwesthonky]

Hi there! Welcome

I want to start off by saying that you can certainly improve your sound with better speakers. More than any other piece of gear, your speakers make the most difference in the sound that you hear.

BUT WITH THAT SAID, I think it's really, really important to stress to you that your room and its acoustics are a full 50% of your sound system. I stress this because people very often look to upgrade their gear, they spend a good amount of money, but they wind up disappointed because they did not address the real source of their discontent, which is so often the room itself!

I don't know the exact source of your dissatisfaction in your particular case. Maybe your room is fine and it really is just a speaker upgrade that's in order. Then again, the Infinity Primus speakers are very good - especially for their price point. While you can most certainly find better speakers than the Primus (at a higher price tag), it's not as though you have crappy speakers! So that suggests to me that perhaps the real source of your discontent is your room acoustics.

Please post some details about your room. Rough dimensions, description of any furniture, location of furniture, listening position, any windows, what are the walls made of (drywall vs. brick, vs cinder block, etc), anything hanging on the walls, doorways, etc.

Then provide details on the location of your speakers and your sub. These will give people some clues as to what the most logical options are.

I have nice speakers and I am pleased with them. However, my room is my limiting factor now. It is about 18 feet x 18 feet with 17 foot ceilings. From the listing position on a leather couch against the back wall (opposite the tv & speakers), on the right hand side is a wall with a brick fireplace (floor to ceiling) and 8 windows that cover most of the remaining surface. On the left side is a 2nd floor balcony that hangs into the room about 4 feet. The room is carpeted but has only a few oil paintings on the walls but the vast majority of wall space is drywall. Furniture consists of two leather couches and one leather chair with ottoman. Then go on to describe the speakers location

My room is in essence, an echo chamber. The next big leap in sound quality for me would come from wall coverings to deaden the echo. I have to many other projects to do to get them made. I could make them, but my wife would have issues with my priorities. So I have done nothing.

My point is to provide you with some ideas on how to describe your setup. It could be your room or it could be your sub. I assume you have your speakers pointed toward the listening position?

 

[Mjac]

Thank you for your reply. My living room is 17 feet x 19 feet and opens into the kitchen area. I have a fire place, 2 windows and a sliding glass door. Furniture includes a full length couch recliner chair and table.The living room is carpeted with pictures throughout. My system is facing me (couch) approx 12ft from Ht system to couch, with the Primus 362'(towers) pointing to the couch. My Primus 350 (center) is located in the Ht stand under my 50in plasma. For surrounds I have Primus 162's on stands, ear level one on each side of the couch facing in. My sub is located in the corner near my right tower speaker. It is a 8in mirage which dose a decent job, it wont break any windows but it seems ok.

 

[sholling]

Thank you for your reply. My living room is 17 feet x 19 feet and opens into the kitchen area. I have a fire place, 2 windows and a sliding glass door. Furniture includes a full length couch recliner chair and table.The living room is carpeted with pictures throughout. My system is facing me (couch) approx 12ft from Ht system to couch, with the Primus 362'(towers) pointing to the couch. My Primus 350 (center) is located in the Ht stand under my 50in plasma. For surrounds I have Primus 162's on stands, ear level one on each side of the couch facing in. My sub is located in the corner near my right tower speaker. It is a 8in mirage which dose a decent job, it wont break any windows but it seems ok.

No 8" sub is going to do a decent job in a 2500 cubic foot (plus kitchen) room. That's like saying that a fart sounds impressive in the middle of a hurricane.

I suspect that it's that tactile feel it in your gut sound that you're missing because the speakers are pretty good. I'd relocate that 8" sub to a bedroom or your office and put the $600 towards a $700 Hsu VTF-3 MK4. But before you lay down plastic see if you have a friend with a serious 12 or 15" sub that you can borrow for an afternoon. I'd also be careful to do the crawl and get it in the right spot and then address the room.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yes, with a medium sized room that is fully open to the kitchen, you actually have a large volume of air to try and move with your subwoofer(s). I have no doubt at all that your current subwoofer is your weakest link in terms of your gear. It is not surprising at all that things do not sound "full" or "balanced". You are quite literally running out of output in the midbass and bass.

As we've pretty much agreed, your current Primus speakers are pretty good. Yes, there are better speakers available for more money. But in terms of your current price point, the Infinity Primus speakers that you already have are among the best for that price class. So unless you simply want something "different" and not necessarily "better", I would suggest to you that a speaker purchase would not be the best use of your money right now. In the future, when you have significantly more money to spend, there are certainly better speakers to be had! But with a $600 budget, I honestly don't think you'd be fully satisfied if you spent that money on speakers. You wouldn't be getting much in the way of an upgrade over your Primus towers.

So if you're itching to buy a new piece of gear, I would recommend focusing on the subwoofer. You have a large space once you factor in the room being open to the kitchen, so I would recommend going for a sub that can genuinely handle a large room.

Some good candidates would be:

- SVSound PB or PC12-NSD (the PB is a large box while the PC version is a cylinder that costs a wee bit less and can be very handy as it takes up very little floor space by being tall. You can also lay the cylinder on its side, which makes it easy to hide behind a couch or along a wall)

- HSU VTF-3 MK4

- Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX

Those three all end up being over $700 after you factor in shipping. The HSU VTF-3 MK4 is the most flexible of this bunch. It offers a lot of options for filtering and tuning the low bass output so that you can choose deeper extension or louder output. The SVSound PB or PC12-NSD is very linear and flat down to 20Hz, but it basically drops off a cliff below that. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX is essentially a clone of the older HSU VTF-3 MK3 subwoofer.

If you really want to keep the purchase around $600, you might start to test the output limits of the following less expensive subs. It will depend on how loud you like to crank your music and movies though. And the following subs should all still perform quite well in your room size. Certainly far better than your current sub!

- Rythmik FV12 - easily my favorite $500 sub. One really nice thing about this sub is that you cannot over drive or damage it. Rythmik has used excellent filters and limiters to protect this sub and it is a tight, clean, accurate sub that can almost hit right down to 20Hz. Personally, I don't think you can do better for the same price or less.

- HSU VTF-2 MK4 - a very close second to the Rythmik, IMO

- Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus - basically a clone of the older VTF-3 MK2. It's got a bit more amp power and you can choose to plug a port for lower extension or leave both ports open for higher extension with more output, so it's a very good option for larger spaces like yours.

That's by no means an exhaustive list of subs, but I figure it's easier not to overload you with options These are all very good subs at excellent price points relative to their performance, so you basically cannot go "wrong" with any of them. They're pretty much all plain, rather large black boxes, but you might find one among them to have a certain feature or have certain box dimensions that make it a better fit for you. So look them over and see what you think. I can guarantee that every single one of them can absolutely crush your current sub

Anywho, from what you've said, I think a new subwoofer is likely going to make the biggest improvement for you. However, it also seems VERY likely that you have less than optimal acoustics in your room. Once you've got enough posts so that you can post some pictures, it sure would be a great help to have some photos to look at so that we can possibly make some suggestions for ways to improve your room acoustics and possibly improve some of your placement if we see something that can be adjusted.

Hope that helps!

 

[Mjac]

Thank you to all that responded. I will take a look at the subs suggested ! and update the forum of progress. Thanks again to all that took the time to answer!! Mjac

 

[mtrycrafts]

Please post some details about your room. Rough dimensions, description of any furniture, location of furniture, listening position, any windows, what are the walls made of (drywall vs. brick, vs cinder block, etc), anything hanging on the walls, doorways, etc.

Then provide details on the location of your speakers and your sub. These will give people some clues as to what the most logical options are.

I have nice speakers and I am pleased with them. However, my room is my limiting factor now. It is about 18 feet x 18 feet with 17 foot ceilings. From the listing position on a leather couch against the back wall (opposite the tv & speakers), on the right hand side is a wall with a brick fireplace (floor to ceiling) and 8 windows that cover most of the remaining surface. On the left side is a 2nd floor balcony that hangs into the room about 4 feet. The room is carpeted but has only a few oil paintings on the walls but the vast majority of wall space is drywall. Furniture consists of two leather couches and one leather chair with ottoman. Then go on to describe the speakers location

My room is in essence, an echo chamber. The next big leap in sound quality for me would come from wall coverings to deaden the echo. I have to many other projects to do to get them made. I could make them, but my wife would have issues with my priorities. So I have done nothing.

My point is to provide you with some ideas on how to describe your setup. It could be your room or it could be your sub. I assume you have your speakers pointed toward the listening position?

I don't have the answers for you but that room a huge cube is your issue, big time. The requested info will not help you in your room. You do need to experiment perhaps, add more absorption panes, etc.
Perhaps one of the companies that frequent here or advertise here will make suggestions. They have in the past.