For B&W CM5's, Denon 1911 to 4311 - Worth an Upgrade?

[Ears to you]

Hi guys,

I would really love some feedback: I was hoping to squeeze a bit more clarity and detail from 2 channel listening on my system that consists of B&W CM5s for the fronts, CMC center, Def Tech Pro 1000s for surrounds, and Hsu VTF-1 sub in a 15x15x8 living room. I listen to mostly jazz, as well as some blues, world music, and older R&B from either my Oppo 93, or vinyl on a modded AR-XA turntable/Grace tonearm/Grado Gold cart. combo.

Typically, I do 80% music/20% HT on the system. When I ran Audyssey, it brightened up the sound significantly in my relatively dead room, which I welcomed, and I have been generally pretty happy with the sound. Imaging and soundstaging are great, but as I said, a bit more definition, finesse, and ability to push these speakers a bit better would be also welcome.

Since my 1911 does not have pre outs and the 4311 does for a future additional move to add an Emotiva XP2 or XP3, on their own without an Emo, do you think I would hear much discernable difference between the 1911 and 4311? Would there be any noticeable upgrade in SQ in the short term until I can then add an Emo to the system, as $ is an issue right now? I have a neighbor in the audio business who can get me Denon or Marantz at cost, so his price would hopefully be less that the approx. $1300 that the 4311 seems to be going for from Electronics Expo when they price-matched competitors. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[PENG]

The 4311 should get about 2 dB of headroom, handle low impedance better and Audyssey XT32 may get you further improvements. Depending on other factors it may or may not result in audible benefits, but at least the potential is there. Even if you add an XPA-3 down the road you may not hear the huge difference that people claimed, as there are other factors and sometimes people tend to exaggerate things to make their points. Regardless, if you can get one at cost with factory warranty then it should an easy decision. In my opinion at <2000 the 4311 is virtually unbeatable. Some of the latest Onkyo models may beat it in feature and power output by a narrow margin, but I trust Denon in terms of reliability.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think that 4311 is a decent upgrade to the 1911 as it has some more headroom, although not significantly more.

but as I said, a bit more definition, finesse, and ability to push these speakers a bit better would be also welcome.

Then you will to upgrade to better speakers, as resistant to the idea as you might be (we all are). Selling your CM5s will be a tough decision but you'll thank yourself as that's the most surefire way to get more definition and finesse, and ability to BE pushed


I'd suggest looking into Philharmonic Audio 1s (1600 + shipping)

 

[Ears to you]

Thx, Peng!

Hi Peng,

Thank you for your advice. I have continually heard from salespeople at the high end shops near me about high current amps being the key to properly drive the CM5s (or B&Ws in general), so I've thought that going for larger power supply-type amps was a possible beneficial upgrade. Since I live in an apartment with neighbors beneath me, I don't listen at extremel high volume levels, unless it is during the daytime when I know that they are not home. It's at moderate volume levels that I would like the improvement to be in terms of clarity, and maybe the 4311 would impart some of this by way of it's improved circuitry and improved Audyssey XT32, as you have pointed out.

 

[Ears to you]

Thx, Grant!

I think that 4311 is a decent upgrade to the 1911 as it has some more headroom, although not significantly more.



Then you will to upgrade to better speakers, as resistant to the idea as you might be (we all are). Selling your CM5s will be a tough decision but you'll thank yourself as that's the most surefire way to get more definition and finesse, and ability to BE pushed


I'd suggest looking into Philharmonic Audio 1s (1600 + shipping)

Hi Grant,

Points well taken - thank you! I am not averse to considering a speaker upgrade, as long as I can fit them in to my limited space and floorplan, that the B&Ws on Sanus Ultimate stands can do without taking over the room, due to their modest footprint. I did buy the CM5s for a great price on Craigslist ($600), so upgrading if I sell them is a bit like playing with house money.

I have been diligently reading the threads about the Philharmonics and their genesis from the Salk company, so I am familiar with how well regarded they are and how much attention to detail Dennis Murphy seems to invest into their products. In your opinion, what aspect of the sound would those particular Phil. Audio 1s improve most for me, or is it just a total improvement across the board?

 

[GranteedEV]

In your opinion, what aspect of the sound would those particular Phil. Audio 1s improve most for me, or is it a total improvement across the board?

Well.. what I would expect is...

- more accurate instrument timbre
- more accurate bass and a "weightier" lower midrange
- more resolution of low level detail
- a different presentation of highs at the top of the vocal range
- wider/deeper/more diffuse soundstage
- reduced sense of strain when pushed

All with that wimpy little Denon 1911

There's also the Philharmonitor bookshel speakers which might fit in well with your space requirements, though you'd be trading away some of the advantages of the large towers in my opinion.

 

[Ears to you]

Well.. what I would expect is...

- more accurate instrument timbre
- more accurate bass and a "weightier" lower midrange
- more resolution of low level detail
- a different presentation of highs at the top of the vocal range
- wider/deeper/more diffuse soundstage
- reduced sense of strain when pushed

All with that wimpy little Denon 1911

There's also the Philharmonitor bookshel speakers which might fit in well with your space requirements, though you'd be trading away some of the advantages of the large towers in my opinion.

Could the Denon 1911 alone cut it with the Phil. 1s, at least temporarily? In other words, might it be better to change the speakers first, and then the electronics?

 

[Eyecantcode]

From what I've heard and read, the benefit from adding an amp won't be noticed at moderate levels. I believe the 4311 alone would do great for your moderate levels. What sensitivity do your speakers have? I guess if you want an amp to assure you have the extra power at your finger tips when you desire, then go for it. More power can't hurt, but that's just me.

 

[Ears to you]

From what I've heard and read, the benefit from adding an amp won't be noticed at moderate levels. I believe the 4311 alone would do great for your moderate levels. What sensitivity do your speakers have? I guess if you want an amp to assure you have the extra power at your finger tips when you desire, then go for it. More power can't hurt, but that's just me.

Thx, Eyecantcode. The sensitivity, from the B&W site, is 88dB spl (2.83V, 1m)

 

[GranteedEV]

might it be better to change the speakers first, and then the electronics?

That's 100% my advice.

Now eventually upgrading amps is a sensible idea once you've got aspects of your speakers you're 100% satisfied with, but not the best immediate path of action whilst expecting much improvement. The AVR-1911 I imagine puts out around 130-140w @ 4 ohm, which, while not capable of extreme dynamic range, is possibly more power than you're likely to use.

 

[Ears to you]

That's 100% my advice.

Now eventually upgrading amps is a sensible idea once you've got aspects of your speakers you're 100% satisfied with, but not the best immediate path of action whilst expecting much improvement. The AVR-1911 I imagine puts out around 130-140w @ 4 ohm, which, while not capable of extreme dynamic range, is possibly more power than you're likely to use.

One last question, Grant, if I may? Since I have always heard that bookshelf speakers and a sub, relative to their associated, comparable floorstanding brethren from the same manufacturing line, would presumably exhibit "better" soundstaging and imaging, which seem to be foremost for me and my type of music. Is this true for the Phil. models you are mentioning? Maybe I should reconsider my possibly uninformed predisposition for bookshelf speakers in my relatively small room, if the overall presentation is better. I went to their site, but didn't see anything about the bookshelf models. Are they forthcoming and not yet listed? I am in NY, so getting to DC to hear them would be doable when the time comes.

 

[GranteedEV]

One last question, Grant, if I may? Since I have always heard that bookshelf speakers and a sub, relative to their associated, comparable floorstanding brethren from the same manufacturing line, would presumably exhibit "better" soundstaging and imaging,

I don't agree with that. I will say that it seems a lot more difficult to get three drivers to play as one, than it is to get two, and it's of course easiest to get one driver to play as one.

But 3-ways have their own advantages in soundstaging. One of which is that a small, dedicated midrange has much wider dispersion than the typical 6.5" midwoofer of a 2-way.

All in all I would not subscribe to the idea that bookshelves have inherently better imaging or soundstaging, except that poor 2-way designs are more forgiving than poor 3-way designs.

As for subs, integrating is convoluted. I do suggest rolling in a pair of subs but all in all I don't think that the sub or no sub will do anything for imaging. What it will do however is is improve bass uniformity / definition if you do it correctly.

Maybe I should reconsider my possibly uninformed predisposition for bookshelf speakers in my relatively small room, if the overall presentation is better.

Yes, you should reconsider that predisposition. It has some validity in some ways but not absolute validity. Taking to extremes you could argue any speaker with any sort of crossover between any two drivers would have inferior imaging/cohrency/soundstage/etc. And yes, there's people who will only listen to full range drivers or full range + subs. Again, they have their merits but any time you deal in absolutes you're doing yourself a disservice.

Are they forthcoming and not yet listed? I am in NY, so getting to DC to hear them would be doable when the time comes.

I don't know if he really plans to list them. He has the design but I think he mentioned that it was pricier than he wanted it to be, or something along those lines.

 

[PENG]

Could the Denon 1911 alone cut it with the Phil. 1s, at least temporarily? In other words, might it be better to change the speakers first, and then the electronics?

I agree with Grant, but I still think if you can get the 4311 at cost and still gets a full warranty then it is very tempting.