HTM review Yahama 1010 & Arcam high-end

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Forgot to bring my latest issue of HTM to work, but I briefly looked at the reviews of the Sony AVR (~$2K), Yamaha 1010 ($1K), & Arcam AVR (~$4K).

Now before saying anything, yes we all know the preamp measurements are inaudible.

But how the hell is Yamaha able to get their 1010 AVR to have a crosstalk measurement of -101dB?

Arcam can't - it's around -80dB, which is good.

The Sony was like -75dB, which is okay.

The new Cary Audio 12 had a crosstalk of like -92dB, which is excellent. The Denon 5308's crosstalk was -92dB.

I think the Integra pre-pros are also like -92dB.

But what kind of crosstalk secret does Yamaha have here?

 

[GlocksRock]

Are those crosstalk measurements even relevant if you use an external amp(s)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are those crosstalk measurements even relevant if you use an external amp(s)?

Channel separation for AVR is as relevant as any pre-pro out there.

Crosstalk is relevant for both the pre-amp and the amp.

But we all know anything like -70dB crosstalk is inaudible.

Just fun looking at numbers.

You know the high-end components usually have crosstalk numbers around -100dB or even -120dB like Krell, Mark Levinson, etc.

I just wonder how they can get a $1K AVR to have that kind of crosstalk.

Sure, all this crosstalk, SNR, & THD are pure "bragging" rights and nothing else. But if you made an AVR and could get crosstalk of -110dB, SNR -130dB, & THD 0.0001% without costing $$$ or sacrificing anything else, wouldn't you?

 

[cpp]

I just wonder how they can get a $1K AVR to have that kind of crosstalk.

maybe it's easier than most lead on to believe. Anthem receivers all show -106

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

maybe it's easier than most lead on to believe. Anthem receivers all show -106

No, you are referring to SNR. The Anthem AVRs have crosstalk in low -70s dB. Most AVR have SNR -105dB or better.

The $2K Anthem AVR has a crosstalk of -72dB, which is worse than Sony.

 

[3db]

No, you are referring to SNR. The Anthem AVRs have crosstalk in low -70s dB. Most AVR have SNR -105dB or better.

The $2K Anthem AVR has a crosstalk of -72dB, which is worse than Sony.

So we can conclude that anything -70 and below (increasingly negative that is ) is inaudible so what's the point of driving it soo low? IMHO, its money wasted to go well beyond the point of inaudibility and certainly does nothing for the point of deminishing returns.

 

[avnetguy]

So we can conclude that anything -70 and below (increasingly negative that is ) is inaudible so what's the point of driving it soo low?

Marketing Prowess!

You'd be surprised (ok, maybe not but ...) on how many people select equipment solely on specs like this that make little or no difference.

Steve

 

[3db]

Marketing Prowess!

You'd be surprised (ok, maybe not but ...) on how many people select equipment solely on specs like this that make little or no difference.

Steve

I hear you loud and clear.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So we can conclude that anything -70 and below (increasingly negative that is ) is inaudible so what's the point of driving it soo low? IMHO, its money wasted to go well beyond the point of inaudibility and certainly does nothing for the point of deminishing returns.

You think Yamaha wasted money on their $1,000 AVR? By having better specs than other $4K AVR?

The point is not what is inaudible and what is audible.

The point is, perhaps some of the $2K,$3K, & $4K AVRs are cutting corners somewhere.

We can't really tell unless we either open the hood (like Audioholics) or measure the performance (crosstalk, SNR, etc.).

 

[3db]

You think Yamaha wasted money on their $1,000 AVR? By having better specs than other $4K AVR?

Yes if their goal was specifically to achieve that number. However, I don't think this was the case. [/QUOTE]

The point is not what is inaudible and what is audible.

The point is, perhaps some of the $2K,$3K, & $4K AVRs are cutting corners somewhere.

We can't really tell unless we either open the hood (like Audioholics) or measure the performance (crosstalk, SNR, etc.).

Maybe the corners cut in the inaudibility are used to make more robust amplifiers and power supplies. That's what I'm eluding too.

 

[Buckster]

thats a very impressive measurement for a $1k receiver indeed

we say that perhaps <70dB is not detectable - but if you look at a lot of reviews for high end processors, they all have crosstalk in the 100dB + area - decidedly different than your mid-range receivers in SQ which all seem to be generally in the 70-80dB area.

all I'm saying is that we know that the Processors all produce very high end sound quality - and they show a pattern in measuring well for crosstalk etc

so perhaps it just means the Yamaha sounds exceedingly good for the money

I'm never sure what's genuinely a good marker of SQ apart from my own ears - but if I can't hear the product before hand, as a scientist/engineer I tend to prefer going on measured results than reviewers or forum posters "raves". Measurements generally are what they are - and are not effected by placebo etc etc.

 

[Buckster]

re the previous comment "Maybe the corners cut in the inaudibility are used to make more robust amplifiers and power supplies. That's what I'm eluding too.
"

then even if that was the case- well its a darn cheap processor

that plus a cheap decent 2nd hand 5 channel power amp - well - could be a good combo

 

[PENG]

No, you are referring to SNR. The Anthem AVRs have crosstalk in low -70s dB. Most AVR have SNR -105dB or better.

The $2K Anthem AVR has a crosstalk of -72dB, which is worse than Sony.

Yep, the $7,500 Anthem D2v, specified by Anthem:

Crosstalk (at 1 kHz) 82 dB between channels; 86 dB between inputs. Anthem's specs, not measured.


The $18,000 pair Classe, measured by HTM:

Classe CT SSP - Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –102.32 dB left to right and –102.93 dB right to left.

Classe CT 5300 - Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –91.28 dB left to right and –90.88 dB right to left using the RCA inputs and –108.76 dB left to right and –107.35 dB right to left using the XLR inputs.

I did some quick search and was unable to find anything that offered >-110 dB for cross talk.

Like others said, perhaps some manufacturers think they get more values by investing in other areas. I also have doubt about the Yamaha's numbers.

 

[PENG]

but if you look at a lot of reviews for high end processors, they all have crosstalk in the 100dB + area

Could you please post links to such specs or lab measurements that shows > -100 dB cross talkd for such high end processors? So far I managed to find only seen a couple of them, I would think certainly not all of them, but I wonder if even the majority could do that well or perhaps just a handful? For example, the Anthem D2v should be quite high end but it only does -82 dB. To be clear, I really don't envy anything better than -75 dB but I am just being curious.

 

[PENG]

Marketing Prowess!

You'd be surprised (ok, maybe not but ...) on how many people select equipment solely on specs like this that make little or no difference.

Steve

I think you are right. I am one of those people because I firmly believe from upper mid range (loosely defined) and up well regarded models they should all be audibly transparent to normal people anyway. However, I don't put much weight on SNR and XT as long as they are well above average but if everything else are equal then I do prefer the better looking numbers on paper.

 

[Buckster]

Could you please post links to such specs or lab measurements that shows > -100 dB cross talkd for such high end processors? So far I managed to find only seen a couple of them, I would think certainly not all of them, but I wonder if even the majority could do that well or perhaps just a handful? For example, the Anthem D2v should be quite high end but it only does -82 dB. To be clear, I really don't envy anything better than -75 dB but I am just being curious.

ok on relooking perhaps not so many as I eluded to- but some examples, the Classe, the Denon Processor (-115dB crosstalk) etc

Preamp/Processor Reviews | Home Theater

as others have said though -on looking around even 60dB is prob. not audible, but such a good measurement shows that the audio path in the Yamaha has been extremely well designed and implemented

 

[its phillip]

Guys, eluding and alluding are two different things

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes if their goal was specifically to achieve that number. However, I don't think this was the case.

Maybe the corners cut in the inaudibility are used to make more robust amplifiers and power supplies. That's what I'm eluding too.

1st, I need to correct a mistake on the prices.

The Arcam is the AVR360, and it's $1800, not $4K. Man, I missed that one.

Arcam ($1800): 105.9watts x 2ch 8ohms/1% THD, 90.2wpc x 5ch, 71wpc x 7ch

Yamaha ($1100): 133.9wpc x 2ch 8ohms/1% THD, 65.3wpc x5ch, 63wpc x 7ch

Sony ($2,000): 170.7wpc x 2ch 8ohms/1% THD,147.9wpc x 5ch, 111wlc x 7ch

So for 2ch power, the Yamaha is better than Arcam. Do we put a lot of weight into the All Channels Driven?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Mark Levinson crosstalk -106dB @18khz, which means @1khz, it is most likely at least -110dB or better.

Mark Levinson No.38S preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Here is Mark Levinson crosstalk -120dB @10kHz.

Mark Levinson No.326S line preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Here is the Denon AVP-A1HD crosstalk -108dB reviewed by Gene.

Xtalk-pure.JPG Full Screen Image &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics

 

[PENG]

Mark Levinson crosstalk -106dB @18khz, which means @1khz, it is most likely at least -110dB or better.

Mark Levinson No.38S preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Here is Mark Levinson crosstalk -120dB @10kHz.

Mark Levinson No.326S line preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Here is the Denon AVP-A1HD crosstalk -108dB reviewed by Gene.

Xtalk-pure.JPG Full Screen Image &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics

ML XT, it's like diamonds for XXXXX, won't do much but is best among class, and look good.