Thiel CS.5 with Sony STR-DG1000 receiver

Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I paired up my STR-DG1000 with a pair of Thiel CS.5 floorstanding speakers. The two seem to work well together despite the notoriety of Thiel and their reactive loads the receiver doesn't get hot at all running them and there's no noticeable stress.

The receiver does have preouts for all channels. Would it be advised to get a power amplifier, would it have a real world improvement?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I paired up my STR-DG1000 with a pair of Thiel CS.5 floorstanding speakers. The two seem to work well together despite the notoriety of Thiel and their reactive loads the receiver doesn't get hot at all running them and there's no noticeable stress.

The receiver does have preouts for all channels. Would it be advised to get a power amplifier, would it have a real world improvement?
Depends on how loud you want to drive the Thiels given the room size?
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I the room isn't overly large. They definitely need a large area to perform well. Tried them out in a smaller room and they did not sound good at all.

According to stereophile's measurements they say the speaker spends most of it's time around 4 Ohms above 200Hz.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Looking on this graph it seems most manufacturers would rate it as nominal 6 Ohm at 89dB - I agree no amp needed

p.s: Seth - wb and y u no come here lately?
I have been very very busy. Thank you!
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I've been slowly getting to know what these speakers can do and I can honestly say I've never had anything that can present a soundstage as defined as this little Thiels. One of the woofers has a slight wrinkle in it though. Despite the wrinkle they don't seem to be affected much by it.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I've been slowly getting to know what these speakers can do and I can honestly say I've never had anything that can present a soundstage as defined as this little Thiels. One of the woofers has a slight wrinkle in it though. Despite the wrinkle they don't seem to be affected much by it.
Below 200 Hz the Thiels present an impedance load at or below 4 ohms. I don't know how powerful your Sony receiver is, and more importantly, how stable it is driving low impedance loads.

Its rated by Sony at 120 wpc at 8 ohms (measured at 1kHz at 0.7% THD), and Crutchfield says 110 wpc at 8 ohms (measured 20-20,000 Hz at 0.09% THD). I assume this is while 2 channels are driven. But these ratings say nothing about 4 ohms or lower.

It is possible that an amp capable of delivering steady power at low impedance loads can produce better sounding (cleaner and less uncontrolled) and possibly louder bass from your Thiels. I looked briefly on Audiogon and found two inexpensive used Hafler amps.

Hafler DH-200 rated at 100 wpc
Hafler SE240 rated at 120 wpc

Other more powerful amps may have a similar effect, but I know these Haflers are good at driving low impedance speakers.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I feel the Sony does an excellent job. I chose this receiver because of it's raw power capability. It has a large extruded heatsink and produces very low heat even when I'm using surround sound (all 5 of my speakers are rated at 4 ohms I believe. For the money I can't think of a more powerful receiver with the features I need.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I the room isn't overly large. They definitely need a large area to perform well. Tried them out in a smaller room and they did not sound good at all.

According to stereophile's measurements they say the speaker spends most of it's time around 4 Ohms above 200Hz.
Between 200 and 400 Hz, impedance averages around 6 ohms. Phase angle should not be notorious for this one as it does not exceed -23/+26 degrees, cosine 26 degree = 0.899 so the worst case power factor looks good. The overall worst case (where large phase angles and low impdeance dips coincide) seems to be between 100 and 200 Hz but even then the Sony should be able to output around 90 to 100W with low enough THD. If you listen from say 10 ft away at avg SPL of around 80 dB the Sony should still have at least 15 db headroom at below the specified THD, assuming you get 2 to 3 dB of room gain. If you listening distance is greater and/or the music content you listen to have frequent up swing to >95 dB then an amp will help, but then you need a good 200WX2 amp to gain only 3 dB. Despite what people say about the relatively weak power supply, it really isn't a problem for stereo as the power supply will only be catering for 2 channels.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Between 200 and 400 Hz, impedance averages around 6 ohms. Phase angle should not be notorious for this one as it does not exceed -23/+26 degrees, cosine 26 degree = 0.899 so the worst case power factor looks good. The overall worst case (where large phase angles and low impdeance dips coincide) seems to be between 100 and 200 Hz but even then the Sony should be able to output around 90 to 100W with low enough THD. If you listen from say 10 ft away at avg SPL of around 80 dB the Sony should still have at least 15 db headroom at below the specified THD, assuming you get 2 to 3 dB of room gain. If you listening distance is greater and/or the music content you listen to have frequent up swing to >95 dB then an amp will help, but then you need a good 200WX2 amp to gain only 3 dB. Despite what people say about the relatively weak power supply, it really isn't a problem for stereo as the power supply will only be catering for 2 channels.
Inside the DG1000 lies an ES transformer versus the typical Bandos you see in non-ES receivers. This sets it far apart from even the DN1020. I'm pretty confident the Sony has all the power I need after a lot of listening over the past few days.

These little Thiels produce the most immersive soundstage I've ever been able to experience in my home. I'm very happy with their performance. I've been on the prowl for a subwoofer to fill the low end the way I'd like but I think I may have found a temporary solution to the problem with an Athena AS-P400 10" powered subwoofer. It's certainly not nearly as tremendous as many of the subwoofers I've been considering and won't do exactly what I want for everything, but it seems to function well for music and does OK with movies as long as the LFE doesn't cause port noise.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I am still impressed with the Thiel CS.5 and I gives me a sense of longing for newer, larger, more sophisticated Thiel speakers. Of all the speakers I've owned none have produced such an immersive soundstage let alone the accuracy.

Things that sounded bloated on many prior speakers sound neutral and belong with the rest of what I'm listening to rather than overwhelm and detract from the overal experience. They wrap around you with sound with the proper material. Anyone that has ever said Thiel is for classical music only must only have classical and any other material they posses must be of the lowest quality possible. Any well recorded and mastered material will be reproduced excellently with these, even rock (rap sounds like crap no matter what you listen to it through;)).

So a passer by doesn't think this is just a silly person ranting about the first "good" speakers they've owned, let me assure you by making a list of prior speakers. I'll try to put the best/most comparable first and trickle down.

Vandersteen 2Ce (great soundstage, full range performance is second to none, requires a large space like the CS.5 to perform it's best. Not quite as involving and envoleping as the CS.5)

Paradigm Studio 100 (first generation, great dynamics, requires large space. Low end performance isn't quite as good as Vandersteen 2Ce. Soundstaging is difficult and they tend to be bright)

Bowers & Wilkins DM602 S3 (exceptionally smooth sounding speaker with slightly bloated bass with the port unplugged, soundstage is pretty good as well)

Paradigm Studio 20 (first generation, very similar to the Studio 100 with a little less mid range definition and obviously a lot missing from the low end)

AR Classic 18 (very narrow sweetspot and difficult to place. Excellent full range performance for a less statuesqe speaker. MTMW array is likely the cause of small sweet spot and tricky placement. One of the most inert cabinets I've ever ecountered)

Miller & Kreisel S-100B (probably deserves to be higher on the list but never had the chance to utitlize these fairly. Excellent on and off axis response. They require very clean power in order to function correctly otherwise the tweeters exibit some rather nasty distortions. Soundstage is excellent)

Miller & Kreisel Bookshelf-75 (amazingly flexible speaker for size and class. It's a rather basic looking speaker but uses the same tweeter found in M&K's higher model speakers along with a 5.25" midbass and a front mounted port that offers the option to plug the port with a supplied foam cylinder. They sound congested when plugged so these sound better unplugged. Soundstage is excellent, strong sweetspot. They are a tad bright and struggle with higher output.)


Infinity Interlude 10 (this is my now and again speaker I've had for 10 years. They were a gift and I can't find a single reason to ever get rid of them. They're a full bodied bookshelf speaker thanks to their larger size they soundstage well [first speaker I owned that I got to do it]. They have some resonance issues with the binding posts and some humps in the response due to cabinet resonance.

ERA D4 (amazing tiny speaker, limited dynamic capability, small sweetspot and not a overly involving soundspace. They achieved good sound in a WAF package but really they're not going to work for a serious music listening system.)

Klipsch RF-52 (dynamic speaker, not terribly accurate or a strong soundstage performer)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I've been slowly getting to know what these speakers can do and I can honestly say I've never had anything that can present a soundstage as defined as this little Thiels. One of the woofers has a slight wrinkle in it though. Despite the wrinkle they don't seem to be affected much by it.
I agree those Thiel's do have a nice sound stage and are well balanced except in the bass, which like all Thiel speakers is tubby.

If you have a good sub now, you might want to consider making a foam plug for the port.

Jim Thiel tuned his speakers strangely to go for excessive bass extension.

I doubt those speakers will give you receiver a problem. Also you have confirmed it is running cool.

I would spend you money on a good sub, cross them over at 80 Hz and put a foam plug on the port. The bass peak is around and just above 100 Hz, so you still need to reduce port output.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
That's probably part of why I have them 4' away from the back wall. I will try plugging them and see how that works. Will wool work ok or do I really need foam?

I'm using an Athena Technologies AS-P400 which incidentally has superior performance to the SuperCube I which has been sold. I'm very happy with the blending results between the Athena and the Thiels. I am pretty certain I would have to spend another $500 to get something beyond parallel performance.

Now that I'm hooked on the sound of these I'm looking hard at the CS2.3 towers. They're quite a bit larger but the concentric tweeter/mid is intriguing as I understand they have incredible sound stage.
 
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S

Scumfrog

Junior Audioholic
I love my Thiel CS2.0's. My first taste of Thiels was a pair of .5's. it was love at first listen. In a HT system they overloaded a little Marantz AVR. I then replaced it with a more powerful Yamaha HTR series AVR. Sounded better. Then I received a NAD 748. I paired that with a monster Crown Macro Reference power amp via the pre-out. All I can say is WOW! What a difference! They sound just great! For movies, a Mirage sub handles 80hz and below. Great. When listening to music-plain old stereo-the sub is deactivated and boy do they sing! Even my wife was blown away. Trust me, that's a good thing! So, if you like the sound as is, cool! If you have the $$, an external amp , in my opinion, will really open up their sound! As always, trust your ears.
Good listenig,
Mike
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I have an Élan 10 channel modular amplifier. I think it's rated 70 watts per channel with all modules active son I would imagine that it would deliver more power with only two channels driven. It's central power supply is quite beefy so I guess I'll just have to give it a shot.
 
S

Scumfrog

Junior Audioholic
Hook it up! Nothing to lose and a lot to gain!
Let us know how it works.
Mike
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Hook it up! Nothing to lose and a lot to gain!
Let us know how it works.
Mike
I hooked up the Élan and it seems to offer an edge in dynamics as well as a significantly lower SNR at higher output than the Sony's internal amplification. The amplifier doesn't seem to strain at all. The Élan has a rather hefty toroidal transformer with 4-18,000uF @ 50v which should be plently to sustain nominal output for all ten channels. I'm not sure of the limitations of each module, it's unfortunate there's no way to bridge (BTL) a module to make this a 5 channel amplifier otherwise it would have been already been being used.

More listening tests will probably confirm that it holds a distinct advantage for fidelity if for no other reason than greater dynamic headroom and better SNR. Whether or not the Élan has more overall output for a two channel application is rather insignificant considering I live in an apartment.
 

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