What Home Theater Can Learn from Apple

D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
I'm glad for you and your were able to use apple products in "mixed" environment, only let me emphasize few my points:

The wireless network works fine since it's based on industry standard - 802.11n

AppleTV interconnects using HDMI - not very good, but still a industry standard. iPod docs since companies licensed them from apple and designed exactly the way apple wanted - again how is this a real Interoperability?
So what you're actually saying is that Apple generally uses industry standard connections (see also USB, FireWire, mini-Toslink), though sometimes it uses its market power to make its standard the industry standard (see, e.g. iPod dock, mini DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, the 4-pole headphone/mike jack).

Not to belabor the obvious, but that negates your entire argument. Except for the subjective value part, which is entirely preference-based. Your preferences are totally valid as to you, and utterly invalid as to anyone else. The same goes for mine.

Why limit to another horrible Apple product - iTunes? My $100 Netgear medial Client can play 24/96 HD Flacs ..
So, instead of 2-3x less expensive, you are now comparing a box that's actually more expensive than the Apple box mentioned. (Your Netgear medial whatever vs. an Apple AirPort Express.) Only your box is likely even more limited in functionality. Can it serve as a wireless router as well? (That's a useful thing, for those of us who travel frequently. Often hotels will have a gratis wired internet connection, but charge usurious rates for wireless. So I always keep an APE in my carry-on luggage)

Besides, "HD Flacs" are easily converted to the appropriate bit-perfect lossless file (Apple Lossless). And Apple Lossless files can be whatever bitrate as well. For example, the files I converted off my the Beatles Apple USB boxed set I bought play in iTunes at 24-bit resolution, with bitrates ranging from 1131kpbs ("You Know my Name") to 1722kpbs ("Money (That's What I Want)").

Because of iTunes' sublime ease of use, it took me less than 5 seconds to discover that information as well.
 
J

jotham

Audioholic
Agreed and this is why I will never own an Apple computer. It's the same hardware as an IBM clone for 2X the price (not counting the extra software you need to run it in IBM mode) b/c of a proprietary operating system. Sorry but I keep each laptop I buy for about 4-5 years and tend to never spend more than $650 each time. While an Apple product allegedly lasts longer, say 10 years, it would already be obsolete by the time I am on my second laptop.
Gene, I think you would need to fine-tune that analysis if you are going to make that point of 2X price. If you are talking a desktop computer, you are basically right and it's why Apple is likely dropping the desktop computer. However, if you are talking a form factor such as an iphone, ipad, macbook air, macbook pro, then it is less accurate. Many manufacturers try to beat them on price for the form factor and they can at best match the price. The closest PC based competitor would be Lenovo/IBM and they carry a price premium as well.

Personally I use a quad core Intel based hackintosh with an E-SATA docking station to use either Win 7 or Lion because Apple doesn't sell the midrange desktop that I want. That's actually the biggest problem I have with Apple, they have such a small product line that they don't meet my needs. My home system needs to be more than a laptop (mac mini/iMac) and less than a work station (Mac Pro).

Let's ignore the Apple vs. PC wars and get back to designing the magic component so you can use your vast powers to convince someone to build it for us :)
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I think we've all gotten a bit off topic so I'll try and bring us back a bit.

Clint's basic point that Apple focuses on user experience and inter-interoperability is dead-on and useful as a metaphor for improvement. Apple themselves are not perfect but their intent is a useful lesson that is completely lost on the home theater market.

We've all battled the remote control problem with different IR protocols, line of sight issues, hook up challenges and once we figured it all out, handed it to a relative who looked at us blankly... I've configured my share of family member's systems and tried to do it in a budget while not pulling my hair out because that crappy dvd/vhs player they own won't play nice and has two separate incompatible outputs.

I use harmony remotes but I would probably upgrade tomorrow if HDMI-CEC had been what it needed to be, not what it actually is.

Moving forward, what I would love to see is a receiver that licensed other brands IR commands or proprietary protocols such that I could plug a samsung blu ray into my onkyo receiver and it would auto translate.

I'm just not sure that the industry actually wants to solve the problem because otherwise their incompetence would be amazing. The thing is, some market disrupter such as Apple will come along and sweep them away if they aren't more proactive.

I think rather than focusing on what was messed up, I would like to figure out what the magic bullet component will look like to make our installation difficulties more manageable. I want the $100 doohickey that I can add to an existing crap setup and bring it under control. So far the closest I've come as an amateur is a harmony remote and they are far from perfect.

On a sidenote, lets drop the apple bashing please. It's neither necessary nor terribly accurate. As a professional software engineer I can assure you that a very high percentage of software engineers own Apple products because they appreciate the elegance of a well implemented design. It's easy to get something to work, it's ridiculously hard to get it to work well and be understandable to anyone else.
I 100% agree with poster above.


I'm tired give DS-21 more responses, some points he may be accurate on, but I believe he misses my larger point.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene, I think you would need to fine-tune that analysis if you are going to make that point of 2X price. If you are talking a desktop computer, you are basically right and it's why Apple is likely dropping the desktop computer. However, if you are talking a form factor such as an iphone, ipad, macbook air, macbook pro, then it is less accurate. Many manufacturers try to beat them on price for the form factor and they can at best match the price. The closest PC based competitor would be Lenovo/IBM and they carry a price premium as well.

Personally I use a quad core Intel based hackintosh with an E-SATA docking station to use either Win 7 or Lion because Apple doesn't sell the midrange desktop that I want. That's actually the biggest problem I have with Apple, they have such a small product line that they don't meet my needs. My home system needs to be more than a laptop (mac mini/iMac) and less than a work station (Mac Pro).

Let's ignore the Apple vs. PC wars and get back to designing the magic component so you can use your vast powers to convince someone to build it for us :)
Good point and I was mostly talking about desktop and laptops not tablets.

I've been able to get a 13.3" Lenovo laptop for about $650 that had the same hardware configuration (I5 processor, 4GB ram, 500GB HD) for roughly 1/2 the entry level MacBook Pro without including buying a separate copy of Windows and PC Emulation software which puts you closer to $1400 price range. Sure the Apple is still nicer aesthetically and has a beautifully backlight keyboard, but it comes at a price premium.
 
Clint's basic point that Apple focuses on user experience and inter-interoperability is dead-on and useful as a metaphor for improvement. Apple themselves are not perfect but their intent is a useful lesson that is completely lost on the home theater market.
Bingo. I'm saying (and Tom is agreeing) that Apple designs for the user, and most HT products seem designed by engineers - who don't understand or prioritize user interface and ease of connectivity.

And the layer on top of that is my rant about HDMI Licensing's choice to not be more specific with respect to the CEC protocol and implementation. That decision resulted, in my opinion, in the fragmenting and lack of progression of software and code that would facilitate better interoperability.
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
Bingo. I'm saying (and Tom is agreeing) that Apple designs for the user, and most HT products seem designed by engineers - who don't understand or prioritize user interface and ease of connectivity.

And the layer on top of that is my rant about HDMI Licensing's choice to not be more specific with respect to the CEC protocol and implementation. That decision resulted, in my opinion, in the fragmenting and lack of progression of software and code that would facilitate better interoperability.
Ditto on the Bingo!:)

Apple is far from perfect but they, in general, make an easy to navigate intuitive product. I believe the point is that if HT companies would think more like Apple not necessarily exactly like them.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Apple sells an experience. The hardware is secondary. That is where the competition keeps missing the forest for the trees. They keep throwing hardware at the problem. Either cheaper hardware, faster hardware, larger screen hardware, smaller screen hardware, higher resolution hardware etc... and wonder why they keep on failing.

Arstechnica recently did a staff comparative about current Android vs iPhone the overwhelming majority (one I agree with) are keeping their iPhone. After spending time with an Android phone it just entrenched their USE EXPERIENCE.
 
J

jotham

Audioholic
Good point and I was mostly talking about desktop and laptops not tablets.

I've been able to get a 13.3" Lenovo laptop for about $650 that had the same hardware configuration (I5 processor, 4GB ram, 500GB HD) for roughly 1/2 the entry level MacBook Pro without including buying a separate copy of Windows and PC Emulation software which puts you closer to $1400 price range. Sure the Apple is still nicer aesthetically and has a beautifully backlight keyboard, but it comes at a price premium.
I could argue that the Macbook Pro is probably .4" slimmer, better made, with a better screen and some (not I) would argue a better OS. But I would never do that :) I am the happy owner of a Lenovo laptop myself based on my positive work experience with the Thinkpad brand. They make a reliable workhorse laptop that I count on for years. I recently upgraded my older Core 2 Duo with an SSD and it gave it new life. So yeah, big Lenovo fan!!!

That said, my next laptop will likely be a Macbook Air because it's kind of a perfect expression of the laptop concept and I will likely do some iPad programming in the near future. Strategically, I'm not sure why the Macbook Pro continues to exist when the Air is less expensive, faster and will be expandable via Thunderbolt. Once the Air is offered with larger screens, I suspect the MBP will disappear. Naming conventions might continue but we'll know the truth.

The real zinger will be the iphone that has an iPad sleeve or a laptop sleeve. Kinda the separates concept with the iphone playing the role of the pre/pro.

yep, i can digress with the best of 'em!
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Apple sells an experience. The hardware is secondary. That is where the competition keeps missing the forest for the trees. They keep throwing hardware at the problem. Either cheaper hardware, faster hardware, larger screen hardware, smaller screen hardware, higher resolution hardware etc... and wonder why they keep on failing.
Yep, I agree. And, Thats why I still think Bose is successful and the perfect apple comparison. Try to use a Bose receiver with other speakers and vice-versa. They're simple and effective, proprietary, and focused on the experience and the hardware is secondary. Albeit suffering in the Bose case. But that's moot, IMO
 
K

kmpurc56

Audiophyte
Apple Home Theater

Oh you guys want your cake and to eat it too.

This problem really started with the tape, VHS and quad channels in the 70's. There is a huge up front engineering cost to have both the ability to choose hardware and software to control. You most definitely lose individual equipment development and pushing the edge in designing to get configurability.

If you just had Apple, any the developments with Microcomputer/Microsoft hardware and software would not be utilized. Apple would not need to. Also, you guys would have nothing to play with. (I remember reading Audioholic reviews unhappy with a fixed LFE at 80 htz.) Sooner or later the one source would determine what the end user wanted anyway.

With Microsoft you still have the producer determining what the user wants but some individual and separate ingenuity development can take place. Plus, the two fighting each other also promotes a need for more ingenuity. However now you add in open source like Linux and now your back to no standards and downstream engineering demand.

Oh how different and the same computers and HT are.
 
E

efzauner

Enthusiast
easy HT exists. Its called Bose, unfortunately they forgot about sound quality.
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
While I don't think the Apple to HT industry comparison is valid, one company vs many, I do see the point of having easier control and setup.

One course of action would be to create a common communication using network protocols. More and more devices are now network ready (wired or wireless) and that will probably expand in the future. You could use this for setup, configuration and control and at the same time allow multiple interfaces using many devices so people still get to choose what they want.

Of course the big problem is getting a group of manufacturers to agree and support it.

Steve
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
VERY interesting article and I like the perspectives that's shown, although I'm no Apple fan, the facts are quite clear....

There is also some other computer based alternatives to the Media center based systems, or how about Ubuntu TV
Ubuntu TV | Ubuntu

I have not verified this what it offers or even tried it but it's certainly an interesting and probably viable alternative...

Technical specifications and requirements, Highlights include:
- Support for ARM and x86 boards1
- Local storage support for DVR functionality (Solid-state storage recommended)
- Minimum disk space: 2GB
- Minimum memory: 1GB
- Minimum video memory: 512 MB
- HDMI
- CEC support
- Digital audio out
- Hardware accelerated video capable of displaying content at 1080p (Dependent on chipset)
- Network connectivity: Gigabit Ethernet & Wireless b/g/n
- USB host support
- Bluetooth HCI interface
- Modular tuner for broadcast TV (Satellite, Cable, Terrestrial)
 
M

mrmichaelbeck

Audiophyte
If it was me, I would like to see all possible home theatre devices use some kind of high-bandwidth bluetooth-like connection. Most of the devices are going to be packed together in a small area so there really is no reason that you would need line of site or wifi or something. You have a TV or projector. It's within 30 feet of a receiver. The TV, which would need to act as the mediator for the whole mess would detect that you have just brought in a powered up receiver to this mess. It should ask if you want to connect it. If so, the TV would talk to the receiver and negotiate any connections that would need to be made. And voila, you've just connected your brain to your setup.

You add a Bluray or a PS3 or something to your setup. Your new brain, which is capable of deciding where things should be and how they should be connected virtually speaking, recognizes the new device and asks you if you wish to connect it. You agree, and it negotiates the connections and sets things up. Repeat for each device. As you add more devices, the receiver provides an on screen organization chart of all of your devices. If you have a phone or something like it, you can then tap into the feed from any device using the Bluetooth connection. You could control any device through your hand held. And you could do it from your bathroom (assuming it's close by).

I would love it if the receiver was capable of beaming a radio signal to individual speakers... something not requiring line of sight or wires. Each speaker is responsible for for power and choosing a channel (you'd obviously need to help the speaker decide which channel to be on - it would need to detect which channel was which based on what was being broadcast from the receiver/transmitter). Think of that. No wire mess. The only thing you'd have to worry about would be interference from some other electronic devices... *pictures em-proofing as next audiofile craze*
 
B

BigScreen

Audiophyte
I understand the point that the article author is trying to make, but there are obvious issues with a scenario where Apple is a dominant force in the Home Theater market.

First off, I agree with most all the points about usability and the seemingly ridiculous restrictions imposed by the lack of foresight, attention to detail and to the customer experience, and many other aspects of home theater that plague newcomers to the hobby.

However, this chaos actually breeds choice and drives innovation. Unfortunately, that means that a certain amount of chaos is the price we pay for those advantages.

I have first-hand experience with several generations of iPods, an iPad 2, and an iPhone 3GS. I have never owned an Apple computer, Apple TV, or other Apple hardware product.

I have to hand it to Apple in that they deserve the crown they hold as the king of the portable device market. I have evaluated alternatives to every single product I just mentioned, and none have the overall support, user experience, and attention to detail that Apple puts into its products.

They have done this by emphasizing simplicity over flexibility, and while that's a strong suit when it comes to those devices, it would be a very bad thing in the home theater world, in my opinion. To keep things simple, they remove functionality that has the chance of creating problems, no matter how useful they may be. What's left is a less capable device, but one that for the most part "just works" and does so with a level of competence not found in most other devices. As a reward to itself for its efforts, Apple commands a premium for delivering that ease of use and the user experience.

Apply that to the home theater market, and you would have the following:

1) only one manufacturer of primary devices.

Instead of several manufacturers of receivers from which to choose, you would have one. From that one manufacturer, you would have at most 3-6 different SKU's for that product.

The same would be for source devices. The problem here is that Apple is big into digital media, and has historically considered Blu-ray to be a "bag of hurt." Therefore, we would not have Blu-ray discs, but rather, we would be downloading/streaming all of our movies from the iTunes store.

2) much less choice of features

In a world like Apple defines it, there would not be different video and audio codecs. We would have had one video codec, and it would most likely have been H.264. Probably not the worst thing in the world. But what about sound? Because we're talking about Apple, it would be AAC, but if we're just talking about a world like one that Apple would run, we would have either Dolby or DTS, not both.

Given that online delivery would be the norm, we could probably kiss lossless sound goodbye. The video quality of that feed would also only be as high as the iTunes servers could handle and that Apple decided was an acceptable level of quality. Given their track record with audio in the iTunes store, we would not have the video and audio quality that we enjoy today on Blu-ray.

3) much higher prices

All the work put into a refined user experience and the closed system that delivers the simplicity that the original author seeks will require a pound of flesh when it comes to the price of the hardware.

That $1,000 Yamaha receiver that does everything 95% of what a vast majority of the public needs in a receiver? It's now going to be 60-100% higher in price.

There would be no such thing as a sub-$100 Blu-ray player. If they were even available, the entry level model would probably be $199 and go up three tiers from there with minimal increases in features (if you look at most of Apple's portable product tiers, they all do the same things, and the difference is in memory capacity or other non-core features, such as 3G data service).


The flip side is that we would probably have what the author is seeking. A much simpler, straightforward, and elegant ecosystem that would bring home theater to the masses at a certain level of performance. Much like what Apple did when it introduced the iPod and eventually took over the portable audio player market.

I would hate for that to be the only choice, though. One of the great things about the home theater hobby is that it is a hobby. Enthusiasts can tweak their systems and get more from them as they learn more about it.

Some people are into that, and some people aren't. It would be great if there were systems out there that would cater to those that want a good easy to use system without any hassle. It's quite possible that those people would be willing to pay the premium to get that. Maybe we'll see something like that from Apple, as Steve Jobs was quoted as saying that he'd finally cracked the television challenge.

I can't help but think that, with a little assistance from someone who is knowledgeable, most people can have a simple home theater that "just works" a majority of the time, all for a price that is a fraction of what it would be using the Apple-style way of doing things.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
It seems that many words come to my mind when thinking about these standards, most of them involves something that is not so positive.... or what else can you say when people try to define a modern standard and completely lack the vision about how to make this a modern set of future proof standard.

hdmi should be a set of standards on many levels

1. HW. Defining a set of extensible standards that can be upgraded when there will be need for higher bandwidths, so that it's future proof.

2. Services - There should,be a service protocol - Services layer
All boxes that you put together knows what they're doing or at least they should

A blueray player knows that it can play video and much more, these services should be advertised in a standard way, to... say the receiver that automatically detects this and provide these capabilities to the service consumer, for instance the AV receiver.....
A Blueray player will ask you to give it a name when you start it the first time, yes?
And as such it can easily communicate this name to the receiver, so that the receiver knows the name of the player and what it can do
Bl%¤##¤ he#"¤, how difficult can it be to create a standard that deal with these things.....

A PC can provide a display service so that it can display videos (and also provide 2 channel sound capabilities, or 5.1), it can also play videos + 5.1 audio to provide to the receiver, so the receiver can actually pick if you want to use TV or PC as a display service, of course in a user friendly way, in such a way a PC can both be a service source and/or a service target, perhaps even at the same time

A TV can possibly only be a display server and as such a service target

We can go on and an for all the possible boxes that we have

3. Application
There must be a simple way of describing how the services capabilities should be provided and communicated to the end user in a nice user-friendly way

To me this sound quite simple, but I guess those people working on these things lack some creativity or perhaps they still live in the stone age......
Or at least the best of the consumer is not on their agenda :eek:
 
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I understand the point that the article author is trying to make, but there are obvious issues with a scenario where Apple is a dominant force in the Home Theater market.
Please realize that's actually not at all what I said, or the point of the article.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
At $500 billion, Apple is now probably worth more than Poland, Belgium, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, or Taiwan :eek:
 
P

prerich

Audioholic Intern
Articles like this remind me of direction Joe Q. Public is headed in...Remember the big people from Wall-E? Nuff said.
 

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