What Home Theater Can Learn from Apple

[admin]

I once had a conversation with my mom. She had a DVD and liked the soundtrack. She took the DVD to the car and didn't understand why she couldn't listen to the soundtrack in the car. I explained that they were different formats. That the music wasn't organized like a CD. That she'd need to buy the soundtrack separately. But she just kept looking at the DVD like it had let her down. And she was right - it had. If we'd had some more forethought, a disc would work the way the typical (uninformed, maybe, but typical) user expects. Because, when a user's expectations are met, they respond positively. But when they aren't... well, that's why we have Internet forums. If Apple had designed the home theater system, the first thing they would have done is sit down in front of a TV and said, "Now, how SHOULD this work?" They wouldn't be sitting in a lab somewhere staring at printout and CAD drawings trying to figure out how to make the most overly complicated cable in the world simply so that they could add copy protection to "stop" pirates that will figure out a workaround in months if not days.

Discuss "What Home Theater Can Learn from Apple" here. Read the article.

 

[Adam]

It's true - the home theater industry could make equipment, or at least the brains of the equipment (normally a receiver these days), be more self-configurable. Would we see a sharp drop off in new AH membership? I don't know. Maybe, but if you have parents with Apple computers - you might be thinking, "no." Why? Because their "user experience" is targeted at people with some assumed knowledge base. Apple automates certain things, but they don't "just work" like the commercials would have you believe. Plus, the more automated a system is, the more people will be afraid that they'll "break" it if they do something wrong (IMO). My dad screwed up something on their old PC once after a "wizard" popped up, and he'd just call me or my brothers every time a wizard popped up from then on because he didn't want to go through that again. So, there's always going to be people that need help getting stuff to work.

Also, I think that striking a balance between an "automated" user experience and a user-configurable one is difficult, especially when you combine in the price aspect. Not everyone wants to use equipment in the same way, or pair it up with the same stuff. "Hey, I plugged in my reel-to-reel tape deck and this stupid Apple theater thinks it should be surround sound." Plus, people buy the "cheap" receivers because, well, they don't want to spend much. Apple makes computers...but a lot more people buy PCs. I don't think it's because most people don't like Apple products (although, clearly some people don't), but rather because they have to pay more to get the same "specs." The "user experience" doesn't win them over. They'd rather spend some time getting it set up and save a few hundred dollars.

Details, details - but at the core of it, I agree with you, Tom. It could be more automated for normal tasks. I feel like you're trying to take away my AH bread and butter, though.

 

[jfalk]

Yes and no. It is far from a coincidence that the Apple user experience is uniform and that Apple makes (or licenses) all of the equipment. The tight control over the user process creates higher prices, a reduced level of innovation (except in the user experience, of course) and greatly reduced competitive pressure.

You're absolutely right that Apple's success comes from the fact that they ahve successfully marketed to people who don't want to understand the details, and that the vast majority of the market are such people. (That said, they don't complete dominate all these markets because their prices are generally higher.) But what part about HTiB's don't fit this mold? Get an HTiB with a BluRay Player, a remote and a TV and you'll have just what these people want, and you'll have solved all of the problems you cite here. HTiBs are a perfect instantiation of the Apple Way.

The problem is: it's not what you want. You want to be able to mix and match and still have everything work together. You want to smoothly upgrade. That's never been Apple. (There are of course some peripherals that work that way... Ipod docks, for example.) There's a world like that in computers... it's called the PC world. And look how far it's come in the last 25 years. 25 years ago there was a genuine question about whether you get printer X to work with computer Y. And don't talk to me about graphics cards. But of course even though everything works together, there are still kinks to be worked out at the margins. But they're decidedly at the margins. And, you have to have some idea of what you're doing when things don't just work. I fully grant that most people aren't willing to put in the effort to learn, well, anything. And they can hook up a Bose HTiB without looking at the manual. See how easy that was?

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I agree with the article. Things should work, and you shouldn't have to have a masters degree to understand it. Standardization is key, but who decides what should be standard.


My other problem with HT (and computer) companies is that they just can't bring themselves to call something what it is in layman's terms. If everything was simply named and labeled and the manual was written for the layman a lot of issues would go away. Marketing gets in the way which is really the problem. You can't get multiple corporations to agree on a standard terminologies because the have to have their spin on why their product is superior.

To many engineers and marketing people deciding what the layman or pro installer needs, uhhh, is going to get...

 

[jinjuku]

This is one of the reasons I have a HTPC. It is the hub for everything.

You want OTA? Plug in a tuner (most are plug and play). Windows picks it up, MCE picks it up and it runs it's calibration routine.

Want FM/AM? Plug in a tuner (most are plug and play). Windows picks it up, MCE picks it up and runs it's calibration routine.

Same for cable card. Same for Netflix. It is simply in there.

Unfortunately that is where things stop. Hulu for MCE? No, Vudu for MCE? No, Pandora for MCE? No. One of the few things that MS had a chance to be the Apple of and sqaudoosh.

But in the end it does save me from having 4 different boxes (No external tuner, no cable box, no BR-Player, plus computer). One remote to rule them all.

 

[adwilk]

"At least "Joe Q. Public" isn't. No, they just want to watch movies or listen to music. Seriously, they don't give a rip about room EQ or how component video is better than composite. Or that the S-video connector was actually created by a lord of the underworld supervised by Satan himself."

Enter Bose. They are the apple of the HT world. They fill an extremely broad niche and us audio snobs hate them for it. I know that you didn't want this article to go that direction, but it is what it is. They have a simple system anybody can use and that most buyers are happy with.

BTW apple fanboy, I'm not saying your beloved shiny gadgets are like bose stuff.

 

[adwilk]

This is one of the reasons I have a HTPC. It is the hub for everything.

You want OTA? Plug in a tuner (most are plug and play). Windows picks it up, MCE picks it up and it runs it's calibration routine.

Want FM/AM? Plug in a tuner (most are plug and play). Windows picks it up, MCE picks it up and runs it's calibration routine.

Same for cable card. Same for Netflix. It is simply in there.

Unfortunately that is where things stop. Hulu for MCE? No, Vudu for MCE? No, Pandora for MCE? No. One of the few things that MS had a chance to be the Apple of and sqaudoosh.

But in the end it does save me from having 4 different boxes (No external tuner, no cable box, no BR-Player, plus computer). One remote to rule them all.

Yep, and 99 percent of Joe Public has no idea what you just said.

 

[jinjuku]

Yep, and 99 percent of Joe Public has no idea what you just said.

I know they don't know WHAT I said. BUT if I could take a computer have it power up, log in behind the scenes, start Media Center.

Well it is easy to do and once you get an end user with a MCE remote in hand I think they are good to go. Now extrapolate that to having them plug in an OTA tuner. Windows installs it and MCE configures and scans for channels and then prompts the user with 'It's done'. Which is how it went for my OTA tuner.

That is half the battle right there. Unfortunately MS is going to kill it I fear.

 

[jinjuku]

If anybody has a link to the video vignette of Ozzy Osbourne trying to use the remote to his custom home theater, well that would be great

 

[craig7]

If anybody has a link to the video vignette of Ozzy Osbourne trying to use the remote to his custom home theater, well that would be great

This one? Ozzy's Remote - YouTube

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

While MCE does somewhat a decent job once it's configured and tweaked (especially with hd cable tuner card) - not an easy task even for techie, forget about John Doe

I disagree with Clint notion about if Apple did home theater it would be simple to install and use while using cross-brand product. You are contradicting yourself - This theoretical system from apple would be easy to use and install only on one HUGE condition: You bought ALL the components from them and at the same time, plus you paid over 2-3 times of price of comparable products.

And, as you might expect, everyone more or less used it for their own selfish (read: brand-centric) purposes.

I don't know anyone more selfish and brand-centric company than Apple. They would the FIRST to create proprietary interfaces and connectors and sue anyone who dares to make compatible products....

So Clint while I see you [strike]idea[/strike] dream of making HT easy and user-friendly as apple products usually are - This is just can not be applied to entire industry without enforcing open industry wide standards.

Lets assume for example that your purchased everything from same brand , Panasonic for example: I'm sure that VierraLink would make the setup, use and controls much easier. Going with all Apple products in same system would probably yield similar results.

It would be nice for HDMI CEC to become USB for HT world, but it didn't since it wasn't defined and standardized

 

[adwilk]

I'm still trying to decide if its even a decent parallel...

To function in society you almost HAVE to have a computer or smart-phone. Certain jobs require it, staying in touch with friends and family that have adopted the technology require it. Apple made it trendy and easy to get on board for those who aren't early adopters.

HT is completely different. Certainly not a "need" to have. For people that want something simple, there are simple options with a few 'phile tradeoffs but users that want the subjective very best- part of the fun is customization and bringing a lot of manufactures into the picture.

 

[jiggahits]

Thank the Lord of Heaven Apple didn't start HT!

Thank the Lord of Heaven Apple didn't start Home Theater! Why? Apple has one goal - suck money from the masses of sheep wandering this world. Their i-tunes is literally a cash cow for the evil empire. Their plan is brilliant - evil, but brilliant. If Apple had invented HT we would still be watching movies in 480i on a 2048x1536 screen through a proprietary cable that costs more than an HDMI and transmits about 1/4th the data! But that would be OK since the movie would be compressed so you could watch it on your TV, ipad or iphone. The sound would be compressed AAC played from a sound bar in 2 channel stereo with simulated surround if we were lucky. To top it off, we would all pay McIntosh prices for Sony quality. Good end product, but did I just get screwed?? But for all the hoards of people who don't care about HT - it would work!
But home theater was never created for the masses - the industry just wanted it to be. HT is for the audio and video fanatic who wanted his own cineplex at home. The beauty of HT is that you can pick and choose the components that make you most happy - within your budget
I agree that things are a bit (understated) challenging and the "standard" isn't a great solution. I blame the movie industry - wholeheartedly!
Call me old fashion, but component cables rock - when did your component cables last fail? They have the ability to transmit 1080p, but they don't. Why? Because the movie industry has paid the hardware manufactures and the "standards committee" to write off component cable and accept only the worst cable and the so called best cable that is full of handshakes and standards that don't always work.
The industry would have been best served to fiber optic (Cat-5) long ago. But they didn't. But something inside me tells me that the big movie studios would have thrown enough cash around to make it work to their advantage or not work and simply go away (HD DVD). They only want a standard that they can control. And yes Blu-ray is cracked. I can (not admitting guilt) backup any of my blu-ray movies if I wanted to.
To sum up my rant, I want my HT with all its quirks because I am an enthusiast. I understand technology. I know how to make it work. The end product is much better than Apple WOULD ever create. When I spend my hard earned cash, it is purchasing a quality product that is competitively priced.

 

[heyjp]

Unfriendly Home Theater

Hah. I bought one of those upper end $1200 AV receivers last year that advertised 2-zone support… only to find that there was a SINGLE obscure sentence in the user manual that pointed out that only analog inputs could be switched to the 2nd zone. ALL of my inputs are digital… which means I would have to ALSO connect analog outputs from all my devices JUST to support the 2nd zone. And of course, my AppleTV is now my primary audio source… and it no longer even has an analog output.

You are exactly right… Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Sony etc just don't get it. I use an AppleTV and Apple Airport Expresses to distribute music to 5 rooms in my house seamlessly now. I can have the same source playing throughout the house or play wirelessly from iPhones or iPads to any room while my Mac plays another source anywhere else.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Hah. I bought one of those upper end $1200 AV receivers last year that advertised 2-zone support… only to find that there was a SINGLE obscure sentence in the user manual that pointed out that only analog inputs could be switched to the 2nd zone. ALL of my inputs are digital… which means I would have to ALSO connect analog outputs from all my devices JUST to support the 2nd zone. And of course, my AppleTV is now my primary audio source… and it no longer even has an analog output.

Normal practice by AVR makers - Not that I agree with it, but harsh reality unfortunately.

You are exactly right… Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Sony etc just don't get it. I use an AppleTV and Apple Airport Expresses to distribute music to 5 rooms in my house seamlessly now. I can have the same source playing throughout the house or play wirelessly from iPhones or iPads to any room while my Mac plays another source anywhere else.

You are proving my previous point - it works great as long as you use only apple products.

 

[DS-21]

I disagree with Clint notion about if Apple did home theater it would be simple to install and use while using cross-brand product. You are contradicting yourself - This theoretical system from apple would be easy to use and install only on one HUGE condition: You bought ALL the components from them and at the same time, plus you paid over 2-3 times of price of comparable products.

Let's unpack your claims one at a time:

Not simple unless no cross-brand products: My (late 2009 white unibody) and my fiancee's (late 2007) MacBooks work just fine with our Gateway-branded external 24" LCD when we need to work from home. Both also work just fine with our Epson (or maybe Canon, don't remember) wireless printer/scanner, which also works fine on a wireless network created by our Apple Time Capsule. (IIRC required only the network name and password.) Our AppleTV works just fine with our Sony TV and Anthem receiver, as does our media server, my old late-2007 MacBook. Our two AirPort Expresses interfaces seamlessly with a KEF Picoforte iPod dock in one room and a Tannoy i30 iPod dock on the balcony. And our iPhone 4GS's can control everything, including acting as a keyboard/trackpad for our media server.

Bought at the same time: All of the above equipment was purchased at different times.

From them: I bought my Time Capsule and both AirPort Expresses from the local AppleStore, yes. I think she bought her MacBook in an AppleStore. Mine came from Amazon. Our iPhones were both purchased in Sprint stores, not AppleStores. The printer was bought from a local big box store. The other audio stuff from appropriate sources. The mini-DVI and Mini DisplayPort to DVI adapters for the monitor and media center all came from Monoprice.

Paid 2-3 times the price: So, you can find me a box that receives digital audio over a wireless network, plays it bit perfectly, and requires less than 1 minute of configuration to work in iTunes, for $33-$50? And so on. That's a silly argument all around. I couldn't find a not-a-Mac laptop for $1 trillion or less that would be acceptable for me to use on a daily basis, because the hardware feels cheap and some of the design conventions (such as offset rather than centered trackpads) are simply poor design. But a Mac laptop that will provide years of service can be had for under $1000.

That said, Apple isn't a Blu-Ray licensee, and none of their current products can play SACD or DVD-A. So I personally wouldn't buy an Apple home theater pre-pro.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Let's unpack your claims one at a time:
Not simple unless no cross-brand products: My (late 2009 white unibody) and my fiancee's (late 2007) MacBooks work just fine with our Gateway-branded external 24" LCD when we need to work from home. Both also work just fine with our Epson (or maybe Canon, don't remember) wireless printer/scanner, which also works fine on a wireless network created by our Apple Time Capsule. (IIRC required only the network name and password.) Our AppleTV works just fine with our Sony TV and Anthem receiver, as does our media server, my old late-2007 MacBook. Our two AirPort Expresses interfaces seamlessly with a KEF Picoforte iPod dock in one room and a Tannoy i30 iPod dock on the balcony. And our iPhone 4GS's can control everything, including acting as a keyboard/trackpad for our media server.

I'm glad for you and your were able to use apple products in "mixed" environment, only let me emphasize few my points:

The wireless network works fine since it's based on industry standard - 802.11n

AppleTV interconnects using HDMI - not very good, but still a industry standard. iPod docs since companies licensed them from apple and designed exactly the way apple wanted - again how is this a real Interoperability?

Paid 2-3 times the price: So, you can find me a box that receives digital audio over a wireless network, plays it bit perfectly, and requires less than 1 minute of configuration to work in iTunes, for $33-$50? And so on. That's a silly argument all around. I couldn't find a not-a-Mac laptop for $1 trillion or less that would be acceptable for me to use on a daily basis, because the hardware feels cheap and some of the design conventions (such as offset rather than centered trackpads) are simply poor design. But a Mac laptop that will provide years of service can be had for under $1000.

Why limit to another horrible Apple product - iTunes? My $100 Netgear medial Client can play 24/96 HD Flacs ..

I personally wouldn't buy an Apple home theater pre-pro.

Something we both agree on

 

[gene]

Yes and no. It is far from a coincidence that the Apple user experience is uniform and that Apple makes (or licenses) all of the equipment. The tight control over the user process creates higher prices, a reduced level of innovation (except in the user experience, of course) and greatly reduced competitive pressure.

You're absolutely right that Apple's success comes from the fact that they ahve successfully marketed to people who don't want to understand the details, and that the vast majority of the market are such people. (That said, they don't complete dominate all these markets because their prices are generally higher.) But what part about HTiB's don't fit this mold? Get an HTiB with a BluRay Player, a remote and a TV and you'll have just what these people want, and you'll have solved all of the problems you cite here. HTiBs are a perfect instantiation of the Apple Way.

The problem is: it's not what you want. You want to be able to mix and match and still have everything work together. You want to smoothly upgrade. That's never been Apple. (There are of course some peripherals that work that way... Ipod docks, for example.) There's a world like that in computers... it's called the PC world. And look how far it's come in the last 25 years. 25 years ago there was a genuine question about whether you get printer X to work with computer Y. And don't talk to me about graphics cards. But of course even though everything works together, there are still kinks to be worked out at the margins. But they're decidedly at the margins. And, you have to have some idea of what you're doing when things don't just work. I fully grant that most people aren't willing to put in the effort to learn, well, anything. And they can hook up a Bose HTiB without looking at the manual. See how easy that was?

Agreed and this is why I will never own an Apple computer. It's the same hardware as an IBM clone for 2X the price (not counting the extra software you need to run it in IBM mode) b/c of a proprietary operating system. Sorry but I keep each laptop I buy for about 4-5 years and tend to never spend more than $650 each time. While an Apple product allegedly lasts longer, say 10 years, it would already be obsolete by the time I am on my second laptop.

That being said, I see the appeal to Apple products ( I own 3 of them, just not their computer products). They are super easy to use and very attractive as well.

 

[jmilton7043]

By gum...

I think you are on to something!

As the eminent American poet, Homer J. Simpson, once said- "D'oh!"

 

[jotham]

Somewhat off topic....

I think we've all gotten a bit off topic so I'll try and bring us back a bit.

Clint's basic point that Apple focuses on user experience and inter-interoperability is dead-on and useful as a metaphor for improvement. Apple themselves are not perfect but their intent is a useful lesson that is completely lost on the home theater market.

We've all battled the remote control problem with different IR protocols, line of sight issues, hook up challenges and once we figured it all out, handed it to a relative who looked at us blankly... I've configured my share of family member's systems and tried to do it in a budget while not pulling my hair out because that crappy dvd/vhs player they own won't play nice and has two separate incompatible outputs.

I use harmony remotes but I would probably upgrade tomorrow if HDMI-CEC had been what it needed to be, not what it actually is.

Moving forward, what I would love to see is a receiver that licensed other brands IR commands or proprietary protocols such that I could plug a samsung blu ray into my onkyo receiver and it would auto translate.

I'm just not sure that the industry actually wants to solve the problem because otherwise their incompetence would be amazing. The thing is, some market disrupter such as Apple will come along and sweep them away if they aren't more proactive.

I think rather than focusing on what was messed up, I would like to figure out what the magic bullet component will look like to make our installation difficulties more manageable. I want the $100 doohickey that I can add to an existing crap setup and bring it under control. So far the closest I've come as an amateur is a harmony remote and they are far from perfect.

On a sidenote, lets drop the apple bashing please. It's neither necessary nor terribly accurate. As a professional software engineer I can assure you that a very high percentage of software engineers own Apple products because they appreciate the elegance of a well implemented design. It's easy to get something to work, it's ridiculously hard to get it to work well and be understandable to anyone else.