Good ol f'in corporate greed at it again.

3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
When will capitlism realize than less than 1% of the population (corporate execs) isn't enough to turn a country like the US around economically. The wealth of a nation must take into account its general popolous and the spending power of them and not just corporite execs!!! The link to this story just burns my bacon. I'm not a union man at heart but in this case ..they have my undivided support...:


Caterpillar-union standoff could drastically change labour relations: expert
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
There's always at least two sides to a story, and I'm pretty confident that news article doesn't come close to telling either one. It's all buzz words to draw on people's emotions. What do you expect the labor union rep to say? "Corporate greed" will get people worked up every time.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, I heard about that situation. Here's some more info on it, albeit entirely from a union perspective.

OUR TIMES | Canada's Independent Labour Magazine

Years ago, while I was in the navy, I took a diesel engine inspector course. The instructor was retired US Navy and if there was anything he didn't know about diesel engines, it wasn't worth knowing. He did not have the time of day for Caterpillar. He loathed their products, service and corporate culture. Of course, that's just one man's opinion, but an educated one.

It's all part of a race to the bottom. Chinese worker wages have been rising over the years, while North American wages are dropping like a rock. Our comparative standards of living will be eventually inverted...:(
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
There's always at least two sides to a story, and I'm pretty confident that news article doesn't come close to telling either one. It's all buzz words to draw on people's emotions. What do you expect the labor union rep to say? "Corporate greed" will get people worked up every time.
I hear you and I posted while still angry... I just gotta stop doing that. :eek:

The way I read this, I think its a ploy on catepillar's side to move the manufacturing back to the US. That's Cat's perogative and I can't fault them on it. However, I despise their methodolgy for doing that. Just close the shop and pay employee severance packages instead of doing what they are doing. Its dirty and unethical.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, I heard about that situation. Here's some more info on it, albeit entirely from a union perspective.

OUR TIMES | Canada's Independent Labour Magazine

Years ago, while I was in the navy, I took a diesel engine inspector course. The instructor was retired US Navy and if there was anything he didn't know about diesel engines, it wasn't worth knowing. He did not have the time of day for Caterpillar. He loathed their products, service and corporate culture. Of course, that's just one man's opinion, but an educated one.

It's all part of a race to the bottom. Chinese worker wages have been rising over the years, while North American wages are dropping like a rock. Our comparative standards of living will be eventually inverted...:(
And you know the sad truth about this is.. Its corporate greed that did this. Unless the US moves their manufacturing base back home, they will never return back to be the economic power player they once were. :(

Take a look at Germany...Most (not all) of their manufacturing base remains in that country and its one the chief reasons why they are holding up Europe financially along with France.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Well, France is bordering on being a little iffy.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I struggle with the concept of "corporate greed." It implies that corporations, or rather those that run them, should inherently be more focused on what is best for others rather than what is best for themselves. Flip it around and consider this - does the average union worker fight for what is best for the corporation, or do they fight for what is best for themselves? I don't know, but I'd speculate that it's the latter. And that's certainly not limited to union workers.

My view is that employment should only continue as long as it is a mutually beneficial relationship. Once it no longer is for either party, then there should be no obligation to continue in that relationship. My employers retain my services because I add value - when that changes, I expect to be let go. While I would be disappointed, I would have no real reason to be angry. I am not a proponent of corporate welfare. On the flip side, if I decide that I will be happier elsewhere, my employers will likely not be angry when I leave. They owe me nothing, and I owe them nothing. They have paid me for services rendered. "Playing fair" (such as not firing people days before retirement benefits will be earned) is more of a long-term vision, in that corporations know that people will have zero loyalty to a company that exhibits none itself - and no corporation will survive long if no one is willing to work for them.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
I'm tired and probably should not be posting, but this topic could get ugly fast.

I know we're not supposed talk about politics but this issue is usually divided along party lines, so I'll preface my comments by saying I am a flaming liberal.

I am also an unskilled laborer. I have worked factory/production jobs since high school. I have worked in both union and non union shops. Was one better than the other? No, not really.
My take on corporate greed is that it exists. Look at all the the products made in china. Has the price come down on these products? Yes. On some. Most have actually increased in price.

Why do people want to start/own a business? To make piles of money. I have a small business now. I make soaps and non toxic cleaners that I sell at farmer's markets. I know that if I keep production costs low, I make more money. I also know that if I cut too much my product quality will suffer. It's tough to find a balance there, but to me, I would rather make a little less money and keep product quality high. It seems that larger corporations are the opposite. They want to cut costs and don't seem to care if the product suffers. The current state of electronics prove that to be true. With companies shifting production to China quality has suffered but prices have not come down much. They have gone up in most cases.

I don't begrudge anyone for being successful. I'm happy for them. I'm not so happy for them when they cheat/lie and do unethical things to get their success. I do believe that we need government regulations. Some say these are job killers and too expensive. I say these companies are making millions, some times trillions by dumping toxic waste into our rivers. I hunt and fish, I could do without VOC's in my venison and fish. It's a trade off that good corporate citizens should embrace. Why don't we hear about acid rain so much any more? Because cap and trade worked and was less expensive to implement than originally thought.

http://www.epa.gov/capandtrade/documents/ctresults.pdf

Okay, I'm rambling. Apologies to the 3db.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I struggle with the concept of "corporate greed." It implies that corporations, or rather those that run them, should inherently be more focused on what is best for others rather than what is best for themselves. Flip it around and consider this - does the average union worker fight for what is best for the corporation, or do they fight for what is best for themselves? I don't know, but I'd speculate that it's the latter. And that's certainly not limited to union workers.

My view is that employment should only continue as long as it is a mutually beneficial relationship. Once it no longer is for either party, then there should be no obligation to continue in that relationship. My employers retain my services because I add value - when that changes, I expect to be let go. While I would be disappointed, I would have no real reason to be angry. I am not a proponent of corporate welfare. On the flip side, if I decide that I will be happier elsewhere, my employers will likely not be angry when I leave. They owe me nothing, and I owe them nothing. They have paid me for services rendered. "Playing fair" (such as not firing people days before retirement benefits will be earned) is more of a long-term vision, in that corporations know that people will have zero loyalty to a company that exhibits none itself - and no corporation will survive long if no one is willing to work for them.
Well, I don't know that the relationship between corporations and labour is on equal terms. As long as there are more workers than jobs and the corporation controls the purse strings, it's inherently unequal. That's what prompted the union movement in the first place.

I realize that a corporation's first loyalty is to it's owners - the shareholders. However, seeking the lowest wage location they can find, is not necessarily good for those owners, in the long run. If wages are driven as low as possible, it's a cannibalistic situation. The corporation is just biting the hand that feeds it. It's consumers who keep an economy going. If those consumers don't make decent wages, who is going to buy the corporation's products?

Sure, Joe Blow isn't in the market for a locomotive, but the products bought by Joe Blow are dragged across the country by said locomotive. If Joe Blow can't buy those products, who needs the locomotive to drag them across the country?

If corporation "A" figures "let corporation "B" pay its workers decent wages and we'll sell our products to "B" employees, while paying our employees dirt", who's to say that "B" isn't thinking the same way? Henry Ford, who I think we can agree, was a pretty successful capitalist, paid his employees twice the going rate based on the logic that paying well simply generated more customers. I think that's called "enlightened self-interest".

What do you mean by "corporate welfare"? Where a company pays its employees more than it can possibly get away with? Or, where corporations receive government bailouts, tax-incentives, etc?

I don't know what the "correct" resolution to the situation at hand might be, but from an overall perspective, if this is the pattern for the future, God help us all - including the corporations...
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I struggle with the concept of "corporate greed." It implies that corporations, or rather those that run them, should inherently be more focused on what is best for others rather than what is best for themselves. Flip it around and consider this - does the average union worker fight for what is best for the corporation, or do they fight for what is best for themselves? I don't know, but I'd speculate that it's the latter. And that's certainly not limited to union workers.

My view is that employment should only continue as long as it is a mutually beneficial relationship. Once it no longer is for either party, then there should be no obligation to continue in that relationship. My employers retain my services because I add value - when that changes, I expect to be let go. While I would be disappointed, I would have no real reason to be angry. I am not a proponent of corporate welfare. On the flip side, if I decide that I will be happier elsewhere, my employers will likely not be angry when I leave. They owe me nothing, and I owe them nothing. They have paid me for services rendered. "Playing fair" (such as not firing people days before retirement benefits will be earned) is more of a long-term vision, in that corporations know that people will have zero loyalty to a company that exhibits none itself - and no corporation will survive long if no one is willing to work for them.
Hey Adam.. I'm neither pro or against unions and I have no qualms of a company that wants to pull out of a location. However, in this particular example, pay the people who have stayed with the company their severances that they deserve instead of playing dirty politics which seems to be the case here.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
There are at least two sides to every story.
It sounds like both side are greedy to me.

I'll bet the one sided article didn't mention the extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union had since the 1980's.
(though to be fair, it's slowly being phased out)
Note: Caterpillar employs UAW members
It's the UAW's "Job Bank" program.
A program that adds thousands to the price of a car.

Laid-off auto workers get paid $31 an hour plus benefits to sit around and do nothing all year
Thousands of UAW members who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours doing crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and UAW as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing.
At the time, the union wanted to discourage automakers from building new plants overseas and importing cars into the United States.
The jobs bank was meant to penalize companies for cutting jobs.
Ford, GM and Chrysler were going to have to pay workers whether cars sold or not, even when demand for new cars wasn't there.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
There are at least two sides to every story.
It sounds like both side are greedy to me.

I'll bet the one sided article didn't mention the extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union had since the 1980's.
(though to be fair, it's slowly being phased out)
Note: Caterpillar employs UAW members
It's the UAW's "Job Bank" program.
A program that adds thousands to the price of a car.

Laid-off auto workers get paid $31 an hour plus benefits to sit around and do nothing all year
Thousands of UAW members who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours doing crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and UAW as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing.
At the time, the union wanted to discourage automakers from building new plants overseas and importing cars into the United States.
The jobs bank was meant to penalize companies for cutting jobs.
Ford, GM and Chrysler were going to have to pay workers whether cars sold or not, even when demand for new cars wasn't there.
I'm no fan of the UAW either and I personally hold them accountable for part of the financial problems of the big three. I also want to add that I don't see everyone belonging to the UAW as having "pay me more for doing less mentality" . The more this gets discussed,, the more I see the politics behind both points of view.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
What do you mean by "corporate welfare"?
I just meant that I don't think it's my employers' responsibility to make sure that I can afford food and shelter - that's my responsibility. I don't subscribe to the view that anyone owes me a job and that my company should keep paying me when I no longer provide any value to them.

I don't think that I said that quite right, but hopefully my thoughts came across.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I just meant that I don't think it's my employers' responsibility to make sure that I can afford food and shelter - that's my responsibility. I don't subscribe to the view that anyone owes me a job and that my company should keep paying me when I no longer provide any value to them.

I don't think that I said that quite right, but hopefully my thoughts came across.
You came across clear the first time Adam. No worries.

When Nortel was laying off people, the first group it hit were the people 2 to 3 years away from retirement because they did not want to bridge them until retirement. Thankfully a class action lawsuit was raised against Nortel and the employees won the suit and got their years of service bridged to retirement. I understand from a financial reason why Nortel attempted such a cheesy move but from a humanistic point of view, I fail to understand it. People aren't a commodity but business treats it like they are.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
There are at least two sides to every story.
It sounds like both side are greedy to me.

I'll bet the one sided article didn't mention the extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union had since the 1980's.
(though to be fair, it's slowly being phased out)
Note: Caterpillar employs UAW members
It's the UAW's "Job Bank" program.
A program that adds thousands to the price of a car.

Laid-off auto workers get paid $31 an hour plus benefits to sit around and do nothing all year
Thousands of UAW members who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours doing crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and UAW as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing.
At the time, the union wanted to discourage automakers from building new plants overseas and importing cars into the United States.
The jobs bank was meant to penalize companies for cutting jobs.
Ford, GM and Chrysler were going to have to pay workers whether cars sold or not, even when demand for new cars wasn't there.
I think this wass an over reach by the union. I also think Ford, GM, and Chrysler share some responsibility in agreeing to this. Both sides trying to push the other as far they could and common sense, middle of the ground, agreements got lost. Too much chest pounding and the fear of looking weak on both sides.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
The way I read this, I think its a ploy on catepillar's side to move the manufacturing back to the US.
Not even close. Read this if you want to see where they've set their sites for the future. If that's not enough to pique your curiosity, check this link to put the cream in your coffee.

So, point is simply that the west is ramping down while the east is ramping up. They don't need all their eggs in this basket whe the other one is bigger.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Just close the shop and pay employee severance packages instead of doing what they are doing. Its dirty and unethical.
Excellent point. I'll modify my previous statement to include that my employer does, IMO, owe me the fully agreed upon compensation for my work - which includes some level of severance when laid off and some level of retirement benefits. If they were to try and welch on their end of the deal, then yeah, I'd be mad.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I think this wass an over reach by the union. I also think Ford, GM, and Chrysler share some responsibility in agreeing to this. Both sides trying to push the other as far they could and common sense, middle of the ground, agreements got lost. Too much chest pounding and the fear of looking weak on both sides.
At the time the agreement was made American cars were selling very well and both sides thought/hoped sales would remain strong.
I doubt if either side really had much concern. Since the cost of millions of dollars to run the Job Bank could be, and was, pushed onto the unsuspecting consumer.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Not even close. Read this if you want to see where they've set their sites for the future. If that's not enough to pique your curiosity, check this link to put the cream in your coffee.

So, point is simply that the west is ramping down while the east is ramping up. They don't need all their eggs in this basket whe the other one is bigger.
Interesting.... so companies have no responsbilities but to themselves.

The US is going to die a slow and painful economic death I'm afraid.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I just meant that I don't think it's my employers' responsibility to make sure that I can afford food and shelter - that's my responsibility. I don't subscribe to the view that anyone owes me a job and that my company should keep paying me when I no longer provide any value to them.

I don't think that I said that quite right, but hopefully my thoughts came across.
It's just that I've only ever seen the phrase used to describe the other situation I described. You know, we can come up with examples supporting/attacking each side until the cows come home. In this case, it just looks quite draconian. Employers' obligations to workers isn't open-ended, but I don't think any of us would like to see the clocks turn back 100+ years.
 

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