O

objectivecpp

Audioholic Intern
Hi,

I have been enjoying my basic HT setup a lot and it has changed the way I listen to music - gone are they days listening in my 20$ Logitech speakers / iPod earphones...

Have got the following setup

Onkyo HT-RC260
Onkyo HT-RC260 - 7.2-Channel Home Theater Receiver | Model Information | Onkyo USA Home Theater Products

Emotiva Ultra Sub 12"
Infinity Primus PC350 (Center)
Infinity PS 252 (Surrounds)
Klipsch RF-82 (Mains)

I am thinking of extending my setup with another pair of speakers - may be, Aperian / B&W CM8 or CM9 / whichever sounds / looks good in YouTube. :)

When I was thinking about buying a pair of Klipsch 82 vs. amps someone in this forum mentioned that amps are not necessary for those speakers.

My question is

a) Do I need to buy amps to power those new speakers considering my Onkyo HT-RC260 configuration?.

b) I don't know anything about amps. Why do we need them?.

Thanks.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I am thinking of extending my setup with another pair of speakers - may be, Aperian / B&W CM8 or CM9 / whichever sounds / looks good in YouTube. :)
How about some Philharmonic 2s ;)

a) Do I need to buy amps to power those new speakers considering my Onkyo HT-RC260 configuration?.
It's tough to say. There's always the possibility that these lower end receivers have a lot of distortion at LOW outputs (IE 1W, 0.1W) where the amp will spend most of its time. Sometimes receivers can have all the power you need at high SPLs, but mask some of the content at lower SPLs. Tough to say without hands on experience though. In general though I'm not comfortable with the cheapest gear like that.

I'd recommend at the very least, upgrading to a receiver with an MSRP near 1K - like this Marantz:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6006A/MARANTZ-SR6006-Home-theater-network-receiver-3D-HDMI-Air-Play/1.html

But whatever you get, do make sure it's got a GENEROUS return policy because there's always the chance it doesn't improve the sound!!!

As for an outbound amp, first of all your Onkyo lacks preamplifier outs so that's not an option at the moment.

b) I don't know anything about amps. Why do we need them?.
We need them because they givelots of electricity to our speakers to be converted to sound! Now high sensitivity speakers don't need a lot of power to get LOUD. So the built-in amplifiers could cut the mustard for all I know. A receiver has built amps, so an outbound amp isn't always vital. However, receiver or not, you need good amps.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Interesting poster handle:D I agree with Grant, upgrade your receiver. The model Grant linked for you has pre-outs in the event one day you might want to add an external amp.
 
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O

objectivecpp

Audioholic Intern
Thanks to both of you.

I will consider upgrading my receiver first. Is pre-amp out the only difference between these two receivers?. Is there any other difference?.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks to both of you.

I will consider upgrading my receiver first. Is pre-amp out is the only difference between these two receivers?. Is there any other difference?.
I'd expect the amplifier section of the marantz to wipe the floor with the low-end Onkyo :D

The features should also be better, but that's tertiary to the amp and preamp sections. Unfortunately in bottom-feeder electronics, it's the opposite in terms of priority. It's about what people will buy rather than what will work best for people.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks to both of you.

I will consider upgrading my receiver first. Is pre-amp out is the only difference between these two receivers?. Is there any other difference?.
Being that you have an Emotiva sub, you should be familiar with the quality of their products. They have great bang for your buck external amps.

The Marantz may be a built a little better than the Onkyo. I have an Onkyo 608 and I'm very happy with it though.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Unless you are going to get new speakers with the intent of eventually upgrading the other speakers to the same brand, dont mix brands. At least not for the front 3 speakers (LCR). If you like your Klipsch mains then upgrade the Primus Center to the Klipsch RC-62 or RC-64. Then upgrade your surrounds to Klipsch as well. Klipsch are known to play loud with small amounts of power. You wont need an external amplifier to run them. You WILL however benefit from a better receiver than the one youve got now. My buddy has the Klipsch Reference system, he was running them off a Pioneer Elite VSX01-TXH but upgraded to an Integra 50.2. The audible difference was very noticable. The improvement changed the sound from screamy at high volumes to a much warmer or neutral sound that was pleasing to listen to at high levels.

Id first get yourself a good receiver.
Then work on getting your front 3 the same maker & series.
Then before changing the surrounds, get a good sub from one of the well known Internet Direct brands.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
A quick note: a more powerful amplifier will also provide headroom in case of wild swings in dynamics. Such an amp is a smart purchase, especially if your speakers aren't the "high sensitive" type. The more power the better. :)
 
O

objectivecpp

Audioholic Intern
Then upgrade your surrounds to Klipsch as well.
Yes, I am trying to sell my Infinity speakers - including Central.

I was planning to do this

1) buy a pair of speakers
2) buy a matching CS or Klipsch CS
3) Based on #2, continue to use Klipsch as Mains or use the new speakers as Mains...

Based on the recommendations here, I also have to buy a new receiver before upgrading the speakers...

I also won't be able to buy the speakers for one more year - considering my budget constraints... :(
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yes, I am trying to sell my Infinity speakers - including Central.

I was planning to do this

1) buy a pair of speakers
2) buy a matching CS or Klipsch CS
3) Based on #2, continue to use Klipsch as Mains or use the new speakers as Mains...

Based on the recommendations here, I also have to buy a new receiver before upgrading the speakers...

I also won't be able to buy the speakers for one more year - considering my budget constraints... :(
Consider the higher end Onkyo since that is what you have now, I would suggest the TX-NR809, good amp section, preouts and all the features you will need. Price has been fluctuating from $650-699, Amazon, Newegg and Onecall. Accessories 4 less has refurb for $650, you can buy new for that price, check it out.
Jeff
 
R

robc1976

Audioholic
A quick note: a more powerful amplifier will also provide headroom in case of wild swings in dynamics. Such an amp is a smart purchase, especially if your speakers aren't the "high sensitive" type. The more power the better. :)
Agreed, also I have VERY sensetive 9.2 klipsch system and have (2) XPA-5 amps and the difference in sound is night and day. It isn't how loud it gets it is ther quality of certain sounds that have improved. When I had my 4311Ci running my 9.2 system it was nowhere near as good and the 4311Ci is not a cheap reciever.

(Yes I need a rack and the stand is bowing from the weight of the amps LOL!!)

 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Could you explain a little more?
Sure. When watching movies and listening to music there will be parts of the music/movie that puts more strain on the amplifier, usually at specific frequencies; this occurs when the sound pressure level increases (in decibels). These spikes can sometimes go from say 85dB to 110dB, which in turn asks the amplifier to put out more power. For instance, if going from 96dB to 106dB you'd need an extra 100 watts to reach that level. If I recall correctly, you need twice as much power to increase by 3dB headroom. Even though these spikes occur for only a few hundred milliseconds, the amp still needs to be able to handle it, else the distortion can become clearly audible and/or speaker damage can occur.

Does that make more sense?

P.S. Math is not my strong suit, so please correct me if I'm off with my numbers.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Sure. When watching movies and listening to music there will be parts of the music/movie that puts more strain on the amplifier, usually at specific frequencies; this occurs when the sound pressure level increases (in decibels). These spikes can sometimes go from say 85dB to 110dB, which in turn asks the amplifier to put out more power. For instance, if going from 96dB to 106dB you'd need an extra 100 watts to reach that level. [emphasis added] If I recall correctly, you need twice as much power to increase by 3dB headroom. Even though these spikes occur for only a few hundred milliseconds, the amp still needs to be able to handle it, else the distortion can become clearly audible and/or speaker damage can occur.

Does that make more sense?

P.S. Math is not my strong suit, so please correct me if I'm off with my numbers.

You are off with the part in bold. How many watts it takes for such an increase will depend on how many watts it takes to create the 96db. Whatever that amount is, that amount would be multiplied by 10 to get the amount of power needed to reach 106dB. Thus, with a sensitive speaker that can put out 96dB @ 1 watt, it would take 10 watts to get 106dB. It would only be 100 watts for a speaker that took 10 watts to get 96dB, which is not a very efficient speaker (depending on what distance we are talking about). And this is also assuming that the speakers in question can handle the power and deliver the sound. It is also neglecting the fact that speakers tend to compress the volume when reaching their limits, so if one were pushing a speaker very hard, then one does not in practice get the idealized increase in sound that the formula indicates.

The easy things to remember (rather than an actual formula for calculating any dB change) is that it takes double the power for a 3dB increase in volume, and 10 times the power for a 10dB increase in volume. It is because dB measurements are not linear that it works in such an odd way. And it is because of the peculiarities of human hearing that such a nonlinear measurement is useful (that is, it is because human hearing is not linear).

But back to the question you were answering, when watching a movie, there can be quiet moments, in which little power is required, and then there can be loud sections, in which considerably more power is required. For it all to sound right, one needs enough power for the loudest moments of the film.

How much power that will be will depend on the speakers, the acoustics of the room, how far one is from the speakers, and how loud one wants to hear the sound. With normal speakers not played to literally deafening levels, it is often less power than many people suppose, but it varies according to too many variables (see previous sentence) to give any precise number that is universally accurate.

I have never needed an external amplifier for my home theater (except for my unpowered subwoofers). But my speakers are an easy 8 ohms, of normal sensitivity, and I do not wish to go deaf from exposing my ears to excessively loud sounds.

Hearing loss from loud noises is very common; see also:

Noise-Induced Hearing Loss and its Prevention by MedicineNet.com

Noise-induced hearing loss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
I have never needed an external amplifier for my home theater (except for my unpowered subwoofers). But my speakers are an easy 8 ohms, of normal sensitivity, and I do not wish to go deaf from exposing my ears to excessively loud sounds.
So going by the information provided, here's a quick example.

- 8 ft avg listening distance (average sized liviing room?)
- 5.1 speaker setup with 89db/1w/1m (anechoic) sensitivity
- Assumed 85db nominal listening SPL
- No accounting for room gain

So for this example 0.5W output is needed for 85db SPL and only 50W is required to reach ~105db. Now correct me if I'm wrong but most mid-level AVRs can handle short term all channels driven to 50W without clipping right? And if so, with this information why do people buy external amps for their setups?

Steve
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Steve, you must have calculated for a 1m distance. At an 8ft distance that would yield 98db. You'd need 250w to hit 105db. and that's assuming a resistive 8ohm load when speakers are normally 4 ohm or even less (IE thus an amp that can deliver 500w into 4 ohms is needed)

Not that 105db peaks are necessary. Or that many speakers will sound great with all that current heating them up.

Also really crappy amps (IE cheap receiver) can be biased towards efficiently delivering watts, but that can mess up their SQ. Avoid light class ab stuff... it probably CAN deliver 80wpc decently but NOT 1 watt!!!
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
So going by the information provided, here's a quick example.

- 8 ft avg listening distance (average sized liviing room?)
- 5.1 speaker setup with 89db/1w/1m (anechoic) sensitivity
- Assumed 85db nominal listening SPL
- No accounting for room gain

So for this example 0.5W output is needed for 85db SPL and only 50W is required to reach ~105db. Now correct me if I'm wrong but most mid-level AVRs can handle short term all channels driven to 50W without clipping right? And if so, with this information why do people buy external amps for their setups?

Steve
8 feet is over 2.4 meters, and the sound is coming from multiple speakers, not just one (though one does not simply add the numbers in dB from the different channels), so your numbers are off from the start. But your conclusion, that most people do not need external amplifiers, is correct. External amplifiers are needed if the speakers are a difficult load (low impedance, keeping in mind that "nominal" impedance ratings do not tell the impedance at every frequency) that the receiver cannot handle, or if one needs more power than the receiver can put out (which will depend on the speakers, how loud one likes it, etc.).

Sometimes, when people use external amplifiers, they are actually degrading their sound, as being an external amplifier does not mean that it is better in every way from something built in (see this for a popular example, though in this case it depends on how the amplifier is used, and obviously the particular receiver under consideration).


To directly answer your question, for most people, buying external amplifiers would be wasting money. Though certainly not in all cases. People who have difficult to drive speakers, or who listen very loud (and who don't have high sensitivity speakers) require more power than most people. People with larger rooms than most require more power than other people with the same speakers in a smaller room (that is acoustically otherwise similar).

Also, your idea of keeping with "mid-level" receivers is a good one, as the budget models can involve too many sacrifices in quality (as well as features). I think most people don't need to spend more than about $600 for a receiver. And if they need more power, typically it would be best to still buy the $600 receiver (with preamp outputs for all channels) and buy external power amplifiers instead of a more powerful receiver, for two reasons. First, one can get more power with an external amplifier, and second, when new features come out that they need or want, they just replace the $600 receiver and keep the external amplifiers.

I used to use a receiver that retailed for about $600, but because I wanted more features (and the old one was too old to have things like HDMI), I replaced it with a receiver that retails for about $1700. Unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, it sounds the same as the $600 receiver. Now, it could matter in some cases, as the more expensive one can put out about twice the power of the old one, but the old one could drive my speakers to levels I found painful with crystal clarity, so the extra power is useless in my case. (The only reason I bought such a high model receiver was because I got it at a great discount as a discontinued model from an authorized dealer; I paid about 1/4 of its retail price. On the other hand, I have thousands invested in my speakers, because there one will hear differences. If sound quality is what you want, put your money in your speakers.)
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
Steve, you must have calculated for a 1m distance. At an 8ft distance that would yield 98db. You'd need 250w to hit 105db. and that's assuming a resistive 8ohm load when speakers are normally 4 ohm or even less (IE thus an amp that can deliver 500w into 4 ohms is needed)
I used this for SPL: Peak SPL Calculator
I used, speakers 89db, 0.5W, 8 ft, 5 speakers and Away from walls.
Is this tool not correct?

Steve
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Also really crappy amps (IE cheap receiver) can be biased towards efficiently delivering watts, but that can mess up their SQ. Avoid light class ab stuff... it probably CAN deliver 80wpc decently but NOT 1 watt!!!
I'm not sure I can wrap my brain around this logic- not saying its not right, it just doesn't make sense to me.. :eek: Care to elaborate a bit more? What do you mean "biased towards efficiently delivering watts" ????
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I used this for SPL: Peak SPL Calculator
I used, speakers 89db, 0.5W, 8 ft, 5 speakers and Away from walls.
Is this tool not correct?

Steve
Are five speakers playing the exact same signal, and is that signal even summing up in perfect phase at the listening position?

Calculate with the assumption of 1 speaker, unless it's for PA application.
 

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