What amp pre/pro for Paradigm Studio 100s?

[LittleBlueGT]

My first post here. I hope this is the right spot.

I am upgrading my Denon 3801 (going upstairs) but keeping my Infinity (don't know model #) but 10 yrs old 4 feet tall 8", 4" tweeter, w/ side-firing 12" towers and matching center, non-matching rears.

It is all going in a 12' W by 30' L rec room in the basement.

So what do I get to upgrade the Denon with?

First of all, this is not really my hobby, just a sub-hobby, although I used to compete in IASCA in the 90s (little bit). I just want to buy something I am happy with for a good 10-15 years. I can really tell the difference between some of the higher end speakers, but cannot justify the price seeing I don't use them as much as I would like.

I figured I should decide what speakers I may eventually end up with, and build my system from there.

I kinda think in the next few years I will end up with something like Paradigm's Studio 100 towers, CC690 center, and matching surrounds (although I may use my current surrounds to make a 7.1 system).

It will be 70% HT, 20% Music, and 10% party/dance usage.

I know the drawbacks of large speakers like the Paradigm 100s, but really like the "tight" low end they provide, and the fact that I can have a fairly large sub with a very low X-over point. I think it is the best compromise for my usage.

So now onto the questions (although I am certainly not beyond tweaking my future speaker plans):

-I have read lots of reviews on the new Marantz 7005 & 7055 set-up. Seems pretty nice, not perfect, but a definite step up from what I have. Your guys thoughts? Will that pre/amp combo run the Studio 100s well?

-I kinda think a bit more power might be nice, and useful with 3 7inch drivers that the Studio 100s have, if so then what amp should I look at getting, don't want to spend too terrible much more then the Marantz 140w/ch one.

-seeing as I kinda want the option of a 7.1 system, maybe I should be an amp that already has 7 channels (this is what is kinda leading my away from a Marantz amp). Why buy an $1200 amp right now just to spend another $800 to finish off the last two channels? Maybe I would be better off with a 7 channel amp from the get-go?

-What about the Anthem PVA-7? Might be better deal then two Marantz amps, no? But then how will the 125W of that amp compare with the 140 of the Marantz?

So this got my looking at bigger 7 channel amps, and I see Sherburn makes a few. But maybe I am getting ahead of myself and don't need that much power. IDK.

Looking for responses from those in the know, and specifically from thos that maybe own a set of Studio 100s or comparable speakers.

Thanks

 

[templemaners]

Budget?

Shop for what features you're interested in. Try to find one with preouts in case you want to add an external amp later on.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I recommend the ATI AT1805 for $1595 w/ the full 7 yr factory warranty. It is very conservatively rated @ 180wpc x5ch, but actual is more like 200wpc. It is also made in the USA.

ATI AT1805 Five Channel x 180 Watt Amplifier - B-Stock (120V) - Amplifiers

ATI have made amps for about a dozen other companies including Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, Outlaw, Cinepro, & Earthquake.

If your budget is under $1K, then I recommend the Emotiva XPA-5 for $900. It is 200wpc x 5ch, with 5 yr warranty, and like most gears, it is made in China.

For pre-pro I would recommend the Denon AVR-3311CI for $870.

Amazon.com: Denon AVR-3311CI 7.2-Channel Network Home Theater Receiver (Black): Electronics

For towers, I recommend the $2K/pr Philharmonic 2 speakers. Arguably best deal out there. You pay mainly for the speakers here, instead of paying 100-200% for markups.

http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic2.html

Edit: you could get the Denon 4311 for around $1650 shipped through "back channels".

But still a lot more than the 3311.

 

[GranteedEV]

^^^ what he said!

But for a receiver I would step up to the 431x because of SubEQ.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

I recommend the ATI AT1805 for $1595 w/ the full 7 yr factory warranty. It is very conservatively rated @ 180wpc x5ch, but actual is more like 200wpc. It is also made in the USA.

ATI have made amps for about a dozen other companies including Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, Outlaw, Cinepro, & Earthquake.

Or the 1807, thanks for the link, I will look into it. Remember I said I wanted to go 7.1.

If your budget is under $1K, then I recommend the Emotiva XPA-5 for $900. It is 200wpc x 5ch, with 5 yr warranty, and like most gears, it is made in China.

For pre-pro I would recommend the Denon AVR-3311CI for $870.

I kinda thought you guys would figure out that if I was willing to spend $4000 on a unit (separates, or a receiver) like a Marantz set 7005, 7055 and 7025 I would be willing to spend that much on some other gear.

Don't you figure $4G is about right if you may end up with it running $8-10G of speakers (not including sub)????

For towers, I recommend the $2K/pr Philharmonic 2 speakers. Arguably best deal out there. You pay mainly for the speakers here, instead of paying 100-200% for markups.

Never heard of them. I will look into the speakers, although so far the Focals (fell in love with them when they were JM-Lab) have sounded the best to me, with the Paradigm that just listened too being about the same.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

No comments on the Marantz units, the Anthem amps, or a Sherburn amp?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No comments on the Marantz units, the Anthem amps, or a Sherburn amp?

Sherbourn is pretty much Emotiva. I can't recommend any Emotiva or Sherbourn pre-pro.

But Sherbourn & Emotiva Amps are fine and highly recommended.

I can't recommend the Marantz unit due to a lot of ground loop hum noise from a lot of people.

Anthem is great, but 125wpc is a little too girly for me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't you figure $4G is about right if you may end up with it running $8-10G of speakers (not including sub)????

For a $10K speaker system (not including subs) I think you can do a lot better than Paradigm Studio 100.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

Sherbourn is pretty much Emotiva. I can't recommend any Emotiva or Sherbourn pre-pro.

But Sherbourn & Emotiva Amps are fine and highly recommended.

I can't recommend the Marantz unit due to a lot of ground loop hum noise from a lot of people.

Anthem is great, but 125wpc is a little too girly for me.

Bear with me here, as I haven't really researched any HT stuff for 10 years. (though I do understand a lot of the basics, and was (not current, but was) deeply into car audio (not SPL).

So then what pre-pro for my price point? I read the thread about the Marantz grounding issues, although I am not completely convinced it is a unit problem, as it is just a few people reporting it, and it could easily be just more susceptible to ground loop issues (but still totally solvable). Either way my local dealer will let me try it first

And what amp? The Sherbourn one seems to only have a 150 x7 or a 350 x 7 option. And the 350 x 7 option seems a little too costly.

Or should I just buy a top-end receiver? If so, then what?

 

[LittleBlueGT]

For a $10K speaker system (not including subs) I think you can do a lot better than Paradigm Studio 100.

Keep in mind I am talking about CAD not USD currency.

But here is how it rolls out in USD MSRP, My guy will get me about 30% off or so, which is OK I think.

Studio 100 vs#5 $3800 (this has 4 7 inch drivers, one midrange, and can really deliver accurate bass quite low)
Studio CC690 vs#5 $1850 (remember this has 6 drivers, not at all a small center)
Studio ADP-590 vs #5 $880 each

This all adds up to $7500 USD MSRP, add in my other two surrounds and we are at $8500, change to CAD funds get a discount, add taxes, puts me in the $8000 range.

So no, not $10G speaker system, think of it as a $5800 USD (assuming I get the deal I imagine I would get) sort of speaker system.

I don't know if that changes your mind on its worth or not, but I am open to suggestions.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

This does look intriguing. Of course every ear is unique, and it is nice to hear a speaker before one buys. I doubt I can get these locally:

I also doubt they will have as much oomph as the Studio 100s, but again, I could be wrong:

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'm not sure what you mean by "oomph", but if you're refering to bass extension, take a look at these specs:

Philharmonic 1 and 2: 32Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB)
The Philharmonic 3: 25Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB)
Paradigm Studio 100: 44 Hz - 22 kHz (±2 dB)

So, the Philharmonics beat the 100's hands down in the bass extension dept. However, they might need a lot more power, because of their lower sensitivity. I say "might" because Paradigm doesn't provide a full impedance graph for the 100's. The stated impedance - " Compatible with 8 ohms" - doesn't tell us a whole lot.

That said, one drawback with Philharmonic is that it appears they don't make a centre speaker. If you had a projector setup with an acoustically transparent screen, you'd be good to go, of course. But, you didn't indicate that you are going this way, so I'll assume that you won't. They also look like coffins to me. That wouldn't be an impediment to me, if I could get superior performance at a lower price. I'm under the impression that they are built and shipped to order. So shipping/brokerage/duties would have to be figured into the final price.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just make sure you compare the Paradigm to the other speakers first. What are all the speakers you can audition?

If the Paradigm sounds the best, then get them.

 

[cpp]

That said, one drawback with Philharmonic is that it appears they don't make a centre speaker.

I think with a little discussion with Dennis, he could develop a center to match the Phil's

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think with a little discussion with Dennis, he could develop a center to match the Phil's

Or the Philharmonic bookshelf speakers for center & surrounds.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

I'm not sure what you mean by "oomph", but if you're refering to bass extension, take a look at these specs:

Philharmonic 1 and 2: 32Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB)
The Philharmonic 3: 25Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB)
Paradigm Studio 100: 44 Hz - 22 kHz (±2 dB)

So, the Philharmonics beat the 100's hands down in the bass extension dept. However, they might need a lot more power, because of their lower sensitivity. I say "might" because Paradigm doesn't provide a full impedance graph for the 100's. The stated impedance - " Compatible with 8 ohms" - doesn't tell us a whole lot.

That said, one drawback with Philharmonic is that it appears they don't make a centre speaker. If you had a projector setup with an acoustically transparent screen, you'd be good to go, of course. But, you didn't indicate that you are going this way, so I'll assume that you won't. They also look like coffins to me. That wouldn't be an impediment to me, if I could get superior performance at a lower price. I'm under the impression that they are built and shipped to order. So shipping/brokerage/duties would have to be figured into the final price.

That sensitivity seems really low, and I haven't found yet what kind of power it would really need. (although I have only looked a little).

Also, what other speakers do they have, I don't see any surrounds or centers????

 

[GranteedEV]

That sensitivity seems really low, and I haven't found yet what kind of power it would really need. (although I have only looked a little).

To take the 2s to 100db peaks at 10ft, you want to feed them with an amp capable of around 325W into 4 ohms (so about a 200wpc / 8 ohm amp).

That said, anything capable of 180wpc into 4 ohms should really be able to make them sing for most people.

Two of these Emotivas:

Emotiva Audio UPA-1 Mono-Block Amplifier

Should be perfect.

The 3s are a bit more power hungry (that's what you need if you want to get as low as they do out of an 8" woofer!!) but they can also handle a bit more power at the same time. You probably want a true high end amp driving them for maximum impact, that can deliver ~600wpc into 4 ohms). It's not that they won't sound great and get PLENTY loud even with the UPA-1s, though. That extra 3db of headroom is just nice to have.

The amp I would recommend for the Phil 3s, is this DRIVECORE unit from crown:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--CWNXLS2000

Aesthetics aren't as nice as the Emotiva unit, though.

Also, what other speakers do they have, I don't see any surrounds or centers????

There's surrounds and centers. The centers aren't out yet for mass manufacture but they exist (at the moment, they're a pricier custom build, but soon they will be available in bulk. I presume Dennis Murphy is waiting for the bulk supplies to arrive before putting them up on the website). Audioholics member woodsart has just gotten his hands on the beautiful Philharmonitor 2 bookshelf speakers, which are larger than the Philharmonitor 1 bookshelf speakers that you could use as a surround.

That said, there's no need for matching surrounds either way. The different angle to your ear is enough to throw off anything resembling timbral matching, and the amount of information typically found in surround channels is lacking enough that you'd never know the difference.

The most important thing is excellent front speakers, and i have little reservation that the Philharmonics should wipe the floor with anything Paradigm has to offer, unless you listen extremely loud (because really, loudness is the only thing an S8 would in my eyes have over the Phil 2s especially if there's subs below 80hz).

Also, realize that since the Philharmonics have a high-ish reflected-to-direct ratio in the midrange, 100db out them would be perceivably louder than 100db out of the typical box speaker. You can almost add about 2db to their sensitivity spec unless we're strictly talking raw bass output.

This does look intriguing. Of course every ear is unique, and it is nice to hear a speaker before one buys. I doubt I can get these locally:

Internet Direct only. If you were buying them locally, something of their caliber would be over the 10K mark. I'm literally saving up for a pair myself.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

Just make sure you compare the Paradigm to the other speakers first. What are all the speakers you can audition?

If the Paradigm sounds the best, then get them.

I compared them to the Focal Chorus 836, and found them comparable. I would need a true A/B test to decide.

I also tested some Pricey Bostons, but didn't like them.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

First off, thanks for the detailed reply:

To take the 2s to 100db peaks at 10ft, you want to feed them with an amp capable of around 325W into 4 ohms (so about a 200wpc / 8 ohm amp).

That said, anything capable of 180wpc into 4 ohms should really be able to make them sing for most people.

Two of these Emotivas:

Emotiva Audio UPA-1 Mono-Block Amplifier

Should be perfect.

I haven't done any research on those amps. I kinda like the XPA-3, enough juice, or should I buy 3 UPA1s??? And the price seems a bit low, how do these compare with say Anthem or Parasound stuff?

The 3s are a bit more power hungry (that's what you need if you want to get as low as they do out of an 8" woofer!!) but they can also handle a bit more power at the same time. You probably want a true high end amp driving them for maximum impact, that can deliver ~600wpc into 4 ohms). It's not that they won't sound great and get PLENTY loud even with the UPA-1s, though. That extra 3db of headroom is just nice to have.

The amp I would recommend for the Phil 3s, is this DRIVECORE unit from crown:

Crown XLS 2000 Power Amp (2000 Watts) at zZounds

Aesthetics aren't as nice as the Emotiva unit, though.

Is this one of the first low-end of the high-end digital amps that actually sounds as good as a good class A/B???

I have just read the reviews of the pioneer stuff, and it seems good for what it is, but still could use a bit of improving.







Also, if I do go with one of the above mentioned amps, then what pre amp should I get, or what receiver. A Denon AVR3311. Is that a good match still, or should I get something a bit nicer?

Kinda thinking about using a receiver to power all 4 surrounds, and then a real amp for the front 3.

 

[GranteedEV]

And the price seems a bit low, how do these compare with say Anthem or Parasound stuff?

Well, first of all, you gotta do an apples to apples comparision. So you can't compare an 80wpc Parasound amp to a 300wpc emotiva amp... the latter will wipe the floor even if the cost is the same.

The anthem stuff has never piqued my interest. I would never bother with an anthem electronic. I'm always under the (maybe misguided??) impression that they've got mediocre electronic design.

The parasound stuff is nice if it's got adequate power. The resale value is nice too. Just make sure it's rated for plenty of power... you're doing yourself a disservice if you get one of these brick and mortar brands based on name recognition and they underperform - and that's what happens all the time. One member here has a parasound amp and a crown amp and greatly prefers the crown.

Is this one of the first low-end of the high-end digital amps that actually sounds as good as a good class A/B???

The XLS1000/1500/2000/2500 is indeed class D, which are analog pulse wave modulating amps. Yes it sounds great, in fact i'd be inclined to pick it over most amps out there, except for the aesthetic appeal of monoblocks

The signal to noise ratio won't be as unbelievably low as the pricier ATI amps, but i don't consider that an issue with an 85db sensitive speaker. SNR is only a problem with 100db sensitive speakers IMO.

Still, if you're willing to shell out for an ATI 3002, it's not a bad choice. Pricy, though.

I have just read the reviews of the pioneer stuff, and it seems good for what it is, but still could use a bit of improving.

I think that pioneer class D stuff is severely limited at the power supply, before it ever hits the amplification stage. Those same ICEPower modules pioneer used to use, when implemented correctly, perform purty darn well, IE these beauties:

Seymour AV | Ice Block Amplifiers

So it's just a matter of Pioneer's implementation IMO. That said, with their 2012 lineup they've updated the amp sections to their new D^3 circuits. I'm interested to find out out more about them!!

Also, if I do go with one of the above mentioned amps, then what pre amp should I get, or what receiver. A Denon AVR3311. Is that a good match still, or should I get something a bit nicer?

I would get a 4311 rather than a 3311, but otherwise it should be a nice choice. I do like the Marantz SR500x if you don't want to spend a world on the receiver section.

Kinda thinking about using a receiver to power all 4 surrounds, and then a real amp for the front 3.

That's what I do. For the most part it's fine. If I had the budget I'd go with a dedicated processor and outbound amps all the way though, as the amp sections on my receiver tend to make the receiver warm to the touch, whereas my outbound amps run cool as ice. It has nothing to do with performance, and everything to do with my comfort level with the low heat electronics.

The 4311, by the way, allows you to shut off all amplifier channels and operate it as a dedicated processor.