2010 Audioholics $1k Floorstanding Loudspeaker Faceoff

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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Axiom has made a response on their forum about AH and the M60.

Axiom Message Boards
Oh geez will this ever end? I mean we did the shootout almost 2 years ago and while they were advertising no less. Their speakers did pretty darn well too!

It took them 3 years after our Estore launch to feel uncomfortable about us licensing our name for a storefront?

Their initial reason for departure used to be b/c they didn't believe in our testing methodologies, then it was b/c of Paul's comments in our tech articles. Now they can't refute our groundplane testing methodology anymore (recall Alan Lofft claiming groundplane is a flawed measurement practice) b/c our subwoofer reviews have become an industry standard backed by CEA 2010 protocol, so its time to go after the E-store.

Honestly I would end all relations with the E-store tomorrow if it meant we would pick up new advertisers as a result. The E-store is NOT our bread and butter. I could care less if people purchase from it. It's there as a convenience to our readers and we also pick up some traffic by having a large data base of products that index on the search engines.

Advertising and beta testing ALWAYS has been our main revenue source and STILL is. This is why we have a large ad agency now selling over 40% of our ads. I one day hope to make that 100% so I don't have to deal with the drama some manufacturers cause when we publish less than favorable comments about their products. I suppose this is the downside of writing critical reviews that we have to deal with. Nobody really wants unfavorable comments written about their products and proud owners of said products don't want to see negative comments either.

Axiom was offered an opportunity by the E-store principles to sell their product in it just like many of our existing advertisers are doing (IE. Yamaha, Aperion Audio, Oppo, etc). They refused and no biggie as far as I am concerned. They were offered this the day the E-store launched BTW and they stayed advertising for almost 3 years after that date.

There are a TON of brands in the E-store, some of whom advertise with us and others that don't. Heck it would be cool if all the major brand were offered to give consumers unlimited options.

Suffice it to say Klipsch sells more speakers in the E-store than all the other brands combined. YET, Klipsch doesn't advertise with us and they often receive lukewarm reviews from us. No matter how negative we are towards Klipsch, they continue to send us product reviews and NEVER complain about our commentary. Incredible company and I hope one day they will advertise with us. I love their professionalism!

The bottom line is Axiom has always had a problem with our critical review process. They don't like negative comments about products. They don't like face offs. They seemingly don't like measurements or blind tests done outside their facilities. They have told me this many times in the past in person and via email. They instead prefer consumers to accept their science and testing as gospel that spending more money than what they sell their speakers for is simply purchasing cosmetic upgrades.

If I just spend $1400/pair of speakers and was told you can't do any better in terms of sound, I guess I'd be pretty fired up too. Hey honestly a good argument can be made that if you can't hear a difference in higher priced speakers then DON'T SPEND MORE MONEY! If you've done the comparison and came to that conclusion be happy and enjoy your music!

I've spent 12+ years comparing speakers (sighted and blind) from virtually every manufacturer and my experiences don't always match what Axiom preaches. I've always found Axiom products quite competitive with similar priced products from Paradigm, Monitor Audio, JBL, Polk, and Klipsch, Definitive Technology, etc. That being said, I would still recommend a pair of M60s/80s as a viable option for budget minded audiophiles to consider especially in a sea of over price brick&mortar options. Their speakers have a pleasing sound and offer plenty of bass and detailed top end and can play quite loudly too. I quite enjoyed my time with the M60V3 speakers despite I found them to NOT be perfect. All speakers have pros/cons. It's up to the listener to determine if the designer struck the right balance for their needs.

In my experience Axiom is NOT up to the level of legitimately well engineered cost no object speakers however. I'm sorry if that is a sore spot with them but its true. It's just as true as saying an Emotiva UPA-7 doesn't sound or measure as good as a flagship amp from Sim Audio or Boulder.

While there are some outlandish speaker designs out there, there are also some incredible sounding products that happen to cost a lot too.

Performance is all over the map but it doesn't necessarily stop progressing at a magic price point. I believe Ian knows this but his business motto is "we save you money by not wasting it on materials that can't be verified in our blind tests". That works very well for them. They have a loyal following and their customer service is top notch. Hence why I told my brother to purchase a pair of their M60s several years ago and he is quite happy with them

I'd honestly like to stop the bantering back and forth on this topic. It's been beaten to death and nobody gains from it.

Ian/Amie have shown me a great time in the past and they've given this site a lot of support which I will forever be in their debt. We simply have always had disagreements about audio topics that now seem to be coming out on public forums. I wish this could simply be resolved and put past us. I wish Axiom would consider offering upper echelon products worthy to compete and embarrass the high end community so we can measure, review, listen and gush over them. I wish for world peace.

In the meantime, I wish to stop talking about this anytime a new forum member jumps on board and starts asking questions. I'd love to move forward and watch how Axiom continues to improve their products and services. Their website is awesome and blows away most of their competition online. They have the ability to be the Dell of speakers (customize the performance to your needs) and I hope they one day live up to the potential that I feel they have.

I won't be commenting any further about Axiom on the forums. I've said everything that needed to be said. I wish Axiom continued success and to one day be in a mutually beneficial working relationship with them again.
 
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MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
The first question that a company would ask is "Why the hell would we want a high end product line and ultimately raise prices?" Sales are down, the economy is tanking. There is no market for high end, luxury goods in a recession or slow economy? Nobody is willing to pay high prices right now?

This is actually not the case at all according to a news piece with an economist that specialized and tracks high-end consumption in the current economy. He said high end consumption is booming. High incomes are spending A LOT MORE on high end consumption (both essential and non-essential goods) and less on middle class goods. The middle class are actually spending A LOT LESS disoposable income on middle class goods/consumption and are shifting their essential (food, clothing) consumption to more low end stores (dollar stores). At the same time high end consumption on non-essential items, was on the rise for middle class families as well. Fascinating stuff.

The bad market right now according to that economist was specializing somewhere in the middle. The middle class retailers are the ones that are hurting the most right now in this economy with sales that are REALLY DOWN with the low end and high end market booming.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Topic of Distortion

I thought it would be appropriate to address the topic of distortion. I spoke in detail about this topic with Philip Bamberg who is better versed in LMS than any loudspeaker engineer I've met.

The graph Ian posted is an LMS plot. I use the same LMS system Ian uses and its old and antiquated but very accurate for frequency response measurements. Nobody uses LMS to measure distortion. It's not accurate. While there is a band-pass tracking filter, it is not steep enough to not "listen to" the nearby tones so its not accurate enough to measure true distortion.

Furthermore, THD will be high in the bass, lower in the MR, and then high again in the treble (where the woofer breaks up). The graph Ian published stops at 2kHz so you can't really tell what's going on in that regard. The cone breaks up after 2kHz!

Let's say the midrange cone break up is at 4kHz. The upper 3 graphs would show a peak, if the woofer was w/o crossover, or if the XO didn't not trap the peak, the 2nd harmonic may also ring at 8kHz and then again at 12kHz. In addition, since the woofer likes to ring at 4k, then when the main freq = 2kHz, the 2nd harmonic will show at peak at 4kHz.

The distortion measurements below 100Hz aren't revealing due to noise and previous issues mentioned, so you don't really know how much is attributed to the chamber and how much is attributed to the driver being overdriven by running fullrange.

New LMS products coming down the pipe will measure distortion properly but they aren't cheap. I am also working with many experts in our field to develop a loudspeaker measurement standard we can use in our reviews similar to what we did with the Subwoofer measurement standard. This will take a great deal of time and effort so patience is advised. We definitely WON'T be using the old LMS system to do distortion measurements you can be assured of that.

Suffice it to say, distortion measurements accurate or not are not a substitute for what our ears can hear. We are very sensitive to distortion and compression, especially in the midrange frequencies.

The M60 is a still a very good speaker in its own right, but like any product (especially budget conscious ones), it has its limitations.
 

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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
^ Scientific method used in reviews? 100% Objective study of each piece of equipment made palatable to the masses with subjective tastes, sights, and smells?

Honestly, are you guys trying to review speaker equipment or take over the world?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
^ Scientific method used in reviews? 100% Objective study of each piece of equipment made palatable to the masses with subjective tastes, sights, and smells?
I just imagined RBH spraying Gene's new Status Towers with pheromones. :D

That's where the real R&D went :eek:
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
^ Scientific method used in reviews? 100% Objective study of each piece of equipment made palatable to the masses with subjective tastes, sights, and smells?

Honestly, are you guys trying to review speaker equipment or take over the world?
We do our best to report as accurately as possible. Of course subjective experience always plays a big role regardless of measurements. In loudspeakers, measurements NEVER really give you the whole picture no matter how much data you attempt to collect. It's an art as much as a science which is what I've come to learn over the years.
 
S

SunnyD

Audioholic Intern
I won't be commenting any further about Axiom on the forums. I've said everything that needed to be said.
I thought you would have been stopped. This Horse had been beat to death.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
There's actually a model 8.1 too, but price :eek::eek::eek::eek:
Lansche Model No.8.1
When I covered the new Status 8T speakers I posted the question: Sports car or new speakers? In this case, you'd have to say New House or Speakers? However if one is contemplating a new $200k home, they probably can't afford these speakers. :eek:
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Ian/Amie have shown me a great time in the past and they've given this site a lot of support which I will forever be in their debt.
Ian@Axiom Forum said:
On the one hand Gene and I have had a longstanding and generally fun -- ok very fun -- and respectful relationship as a magazine/manufacturer.
Aren't you guys letting a difference of opinion (blown way out of proportion by the Internet Forums, the geeks' People/Sun/Entertainment Tonight) create a rift in what seems to be a great friendship and that both parties are unhappy about losing.

See the big picture! Agree to disagree. Agree to not see eye to eye on measurements/business models/ crossover design, but please don't lose the friendship that you seemed to cherish at one time.
 
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haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
Aren't you guys letting a difference of opinion (blown way out of proportion by the Internet Forums, the geek's People/Sun/Entertainment Tonight) create a rift in what seems to be a great friendship and that both parties are unhappy about losing.

See the big picture! Agree to disagree. Agree to not see eye to eye on measurements/business models/ crossover design, but please don't lose the friendship that you seemed to cherish at one time.
I think that Axiom in their posts raise doubts about the credibility of the whole review process and Gene's credibility and for this, you can't agree.... I see the credibility of the reviewers in AH as rock solid.... and as such I think Ian Colquhoun is just foolish.

I personally understand and supports Gene's attitude to this....

So they can't agree to disagree !
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I thought you would have been stopped. This Horse had been beat to death.
A horse has been harmed by you and Gene.:mad: You beat a horse over this nonsense. Poor horse probably never even had a chance.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I think that Axiom in their posts raise doubts about the credibility of the whole review process and Gene's credibility and for this, you can't agree.... I see the credibility of the reviewers in AH as rock solid.... and as such I think Ian Colquhoun is just foolish.

I personally understand and supports Gene's attitude to this....

So they can't agree to disagree !
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but, you are not intimately familiar with the Gene or Ian or their friendship or their conversations on the disagreement. Then you fall into the "blown way out of proportion by the Internet Forums, the geek's People/Sun/Entertainment Tonight" category.

If former, i.e. intimately familiar, I acquiesce.
If latter, STFU.

Let Gene be the judge of what is more important, the standoff or the friendship. IMHO, everyone else should move on.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but, you are not intimately familiar with the Gene or Ian or their friendship or their conversations on the disagreement. Then you fall into the "blown way out of proportion by the Internet Forums, the geek's People/Sun/Entertainment Tonight" category.

If former, i.e. intimately familiar, I acquiesce.
If latter, STFU.

Let Gene be the judge of what is more important, the standoff or the friendship. IMHO, everyone else should move on.
I have nothing to do with any of them whatsoever, I don't know the products, I don't know Gene...
Does that answer your question?
 
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