Mark Levinson 433 vs Parasound 51

[haraldo]

Why oh why?

Cost savings, lightweight compared to heat sinks?

I hope my amps last 50 yrs.

But if they don't, I'm thinking Bryston if I can get them new for like 50% off.

Yes, but don't most pro amps have fans?
because it's generally too much power in too little space for convection cooling to work.....

 

[jinjuku]

I'd rather spend the $2K than screw around for 3 months. Or 3 weeks, for that matter. Perhaps if I was convinced I needed a $10K amp, but I don't buy $10K amps.

Baloney. I never said I was dismissing a Crown, for example, I said I was discerning between amplifiers. I haven't discussed what the brands were. You're making assumptions and condescending statements based on your assumptions of my experiences and biases.

Ok. Sorry just that I am having a hard time closing the loop on purchasing a $2K amp (over a lesser cost amp?) than 'screw around for 3 months'. Just so you understand my thought process and putting things together with the information that you are providing.

The only way that I can read it is: I would rather just spend $2k on an amp and be done with it. That the $2K amp is a KNOWN quantity and the lesser expensive isn't?

The only reason I let it go on for three months was (even though I thought that entire notion that you have to live with something that long to figure out if you REALLY like it) because that is what all the subjectivists go on and on about.

IMO if you can't figure out whether you like an amp or not in a few days then the rest is just psychological. If the differences are SO infinitesimal that it's a long term like that to figure out. Well color me skeptical.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but don't most pro amps have fans?
because it's generally too much power in too little space for convection cooling to work.....

All the pro amps I've seen have fans inside them. I guess as long as they are super quiet, we won't even notice them.

 

[jinjuku]

Yes, but don't most pro amps have fans?
because it's generally too much power in too little space for convection cooling to work.....

The Class D like the XLS Drivecore and IPR are very efficient. Convection cooling up to a certain load and then the fan kicks in.

 

[ski2xblack]

Why does one care if the amp is Class A, Class A/B, Class D, or Class H? Can one really hear the difference?

I think there are sonic merits to class A.

Several years ago, a friend, neighbor, and fellow audio nut was in the process of his typical, cyclic system rebuild/upgrade. He'd bought himself a pile of amps and digi crossover and was going active. That left his still practically new, class A solid state Pass Labs XA30.2 sitting unused for the time being, so he generously offered to let me use it for a while. I got to play with it for several weeks, and compared it to many amps, both home audio (Yamaha, NAD) and commercial (Crown) that were at my disposal, which covers class AB and class GH.

The Pass was the clear winner. The rest were all essentially similar (and equally good), but lacking in that last degree of clarity (which is still quite subtle- it's the sort of thing you would never miss if you had never heard it, but once you do it's unmistakable).

I could be wrong about attributing the sound to the circuit topology, but having heard other class A amps that share the Pass' peculiar transparency, I don't think so. I would love to audition one of the Quad amps that TLS uses, as they too supposedly share this trait.

 

[jinjuku]

I think there are sonic merits to class A.

Several years ago, a friend, neighbor, and fellow audio nut was in the process of his typical, cyclic system rebuild/upgrade. He'd bought himself a pile of amps and digi crossover and was going active. That left his still practically new, class A solid state Pass Labs XA30.2 sitting unused for the time being, so he generously offered to let me use it for a while. I got to play with it for several weeks, and compared it to many amps, both home audio (Yamaha, NAD) and commercial (Crown) that was at my disposal, which covers class AB and class GH.

The Pass was the clear winner. The rest were all essentially similar (and equally good), but lacking in that last degree of clarity (which is still quite subtle- it's the sort of thing you would never miss if you had never heard it, but once you do it's unmistakable).

I could be wrong about attributing the sound to the circuit topology, but having heard other class A amps that share the Pass' peculiar transparency, I don't think so. I would love to audition one of the Quad amps that TLS uses, as they too supposedly share this trait.

Pretty much what one poster at AVS said about the Peavy IPR1600. Compared to his Bryston it was just as good. He had a preference for his Pass Labs amp. He stated it was better, just not 14X the cost better

 

[DenPureSound]

Qsc amp

Just curious, as I can pick up this amp for right around $400 Open box from dealer.

To drive a front pair of Def. Tech. BP7001SC's which are rated at 600W each, and nominal 6Ω vs. our Emotiva XPA-5 yielding 200W into 8Ω. What would this buy us, only louder or ?

QSC - PLX1804 Specifications

 

[DenPureSound]

Yes, the Yamaha amps seem like so good that it's very hard to go wrong and from what I heard they're along the most silent ones from the "pro family amps"

Other brands seem quite good too, some crown amps even have peq

I don't, however, see any class-d pro-amps, why is that?

Understand, but what is the cost of the Yamaha amps your looking at vs. the QSC PLX1804 Pro amp, which I could get for around $400, which would yield 600W into 8Ω per channel.

 

[DenPureSound]

Why oh why?

Cost savings, lightweight compared to heat sinks?

I hope my amps last 50 yrs.

But if they don't, I'm thinking Bryston if I can get them new for like 50% off.

Bryston, then why are you pushing me towards a QSC?

Oh, I forgot, you have Serious Capital behind your brands, and you just buy what you want, not what you need or can afford [Laughing]. Is that the case?

The outputs for the QSC PLX1804 are Speakon connectors, like the NL4FC variety.

900W/ch @ 4 ohms, 600W/ch @ 8 ohms
Very lightweight (13 lbs.)
Advanced cooling design with front exhaust
Power, clip, -10dB, and signal present LEDs
Speakon outs
Front-panel gain controls
Balanced XLR inputs with TRS connectors
PowerLight power supply
Clip limiting
Thermal limiting

Highlighted what I like above. and of course the price $400 or so, plus cabling costs being different w/ Speakons and XLR for inputs, since my Denon 4311 has no balanced outputs. Should give me around 750W per channel at 6Ω nominal impedance for speakers, which would FRY the SuperTowers at full gain.

 

[jinjuku]

Just curious, as I can pick up this amp for right around $400 Open box from dealer.

To drive a front pair of Def. Tech. BP7001SC's which are rated at 600W each, and nominal 6Ω vs. our Emotiva XPA-5 yielding 200W into 8Ω. What would this buy us, only louder or ?

QSC - PLX1804 Specifications

It will buy you better low end transients.

 

[templemaners]

Understand, but what is the cost of the Yamaha amps your looking at vs. the QSC PLX1804 Pro amp, which I could get for around $400, which would yield 600W into 8Ω per channel.

The ones that he's talking about are likely the P series shown below. There's quite a lot of talk in the archives about Yamaha P series amps:

Power Amps from Yamaha Power Amps at zZounds.com

 

[haraldo]

Understand, but what is the cost of the Yamaha amps your looking at vs. the QSC PLX1804 Pro amp, which I could get for around $400, which would yield 600W into 8Ω per channel.

The Yamaha's are quite well priced I think, although you have to pay more than for the QSC's
Quick check reveals $630 for the P5000S

P5000S specs
1kHz, THD+N=1% 8 Ohms Stereo: 525W + 525W
1kHz, THD+N=1% 4 Ohms Stereo: 750W + 750W
1kHz, THD+N=1% 8 Ohms Bridge: 1500W
20Hz-20kHz, THD+N=1% 8 Ohms Stereo: 500W + 500W
20Hz-20kHz, THD+N=1% 4 Ohms Stereo: 700W + 700W
20Hz-20kHz, THD+N=1% 8 Ohms Bridge: 1400W
1kHz, 20mS nonclip 2 Ohms Stereo: 1300W + 1300W
1kHz, 20mS nonclip 4 Ohms Bridge: 2600W

http://www.zzounds.com/prodsearch?cat=2747&cat2=3482&ob=pop&rl=&rh=&instock=0&blowouts=0&filter=see+results&q=&form=search

 

[DenPureSound]

It will buy you better low end transients.

I beg your pardon, I don't need any Transients hanging around my low end.

I want it to open up the mid/high end FAST Transients when the audio content wants to push a fast PEAK spike and have it end up on the drivers w/ little to no distortion.

Specifications PLX 1104, PLX 1804
PLX 1104 PLX 1804
OUTPUT POWER (Watts)(1)
20 - 20k Hz, 0.05% THD, 8 ohms/Ch. 310 550
1k Hz, 0.1% THD (EIA), 8 ohms/Ch. 325 600
20 - 20k Hz, 0.05% THD, 4 ohms/Ch. 500 800
1k Hz, 0.1% THD (EIA), 4 ohms/Ch. 550 900
DISTORTION, SMPTE-IM 0.02% 0.02%
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 20 - 20k Hz, ±0.5 dB, all models
SIGNAL to NOISE, unweighted, 20 - 20k Hz -108 dB -106 dB
VOLTAGE GAIN 32.5 dB 34.9 dB
INPUT SENSITIVITY, Vrms
for rated power into 8 ohms 1.18 (+3.7 dBu) 1.20 (+3.8 dBu)
OUTPUT CIRCUIT TYPE AB AB/H
INPUT IMPEDANCE 10k ohms unbalanced, 20k ohms balanced
DYNAMIC HEADROOM 2 dB at 4 ohms
DAMPING FACTOR (8 ohms) >200
AMPLIFIER PROTECTION Short circuit, open circuit, thermal, ultrasonic and RF protection. Stable into reactive or mismatched loads
COOLING Continuously variable speed fan; back-to-front air flow through heat sink array
CONTROLS Front: AC POWER switch, Gain controls (each channel) 21 detents
Back: AC circuit breaker
LED INDICATORS POWER (blue), SIGNAL (green x 2), -10 dB (green x 2), CLIP (red x 2)
CONNECTORS Input: 1/4-inch TRS and female XLR; 20k ohm balanced, 10k ohm unbalanced
Output: Speakon connectors: Ch 1, 4-wires (Ch 1 + Ch 2); Ch 2, 2-wires (Ch 2 only)
LOAD PROTECTION Turn-on/turn-off muting, DC fault blocking, Clip limiting, Infrasonic filter (-3 dB at 5 Hz)
POWER REQUIREMENTS Refer to rear panel serial number label. Configured at factory for 100, 120 or 220-240 VAC, 50- 60 Hz.
DIMENSIONS 19.0" (48.3 cm) W, 3.5" (8.9 cm) H, 10.1" (25.7 cm) D (from front mounting rails, including rear support
ears)
WEIGHT(1) 13 pounds (5.9 kg) net; 18 pounds (8.2 kg) shipping

this even has better specs than the Yamaha for THD.

 

[DenPureSound]

The ones that he's talking about are likely the P series shown below. There's quite a lot of talk in the archives about Yamaha P series amps:

Power Amps from Yamaha Power Amps at zZounds.com

Understand, but more money for the Yamaha, and the Yammy P5000S has a lot more THD than the QSC PLX1804 per specs.

 

[jinjuku]

I beg your pardon, I don't need any Transients hanging around my low end.

I want it to open up the mid/high end FAST Transients when the audio content wants to push a fast PEAK spike and have it end up on the drivers w/ little to no distortion.
.

The higher up in frequency you go the less work that amp is going to do. That is why you don't see 600 watt amps driving compression drivers (tweeters) in an actively managed audio array.

This dealer: Will he take the amp back if you don't want it? He should also have XLR to RCA cables or at least adapters. You can also easily get the from zzounds/musicians friend/sweetwater/amazon.

 

[DenPureSound]

Totally understand, I know what you mean as far as power required for the low hanging fruit (freqs.) vs. the mid/highs. It is on the bottom end that really needs the power reserves (headroom).

Heck, and for that matter the front DT Supertowers each have 1500W amps in them, plus my dual subs w/ more Watts for the low end, henceforth I am not sure it really would buy me much more.

I have not called them yet, still thinking do I really need another amp. over the EMO. Not really sure what it would bring to the party vs. the EMO which will make the fronts/cc/surrounds very loud already.

That is this hobby, always wondering what it will do, and sound like vs. the EMO. ADTG orders thru Amazon and then if he does not like it, sends it back for full returns. That is a great way to audition it, and see if it does really make a difference overall.

 

[templemaners]

for that matter the front DT Supertowers each have 1500W amps in them

I hope for your sake that DT rates their amps more accurately than they do frequency response.

 

[haraldo]

How about these?
Pass Labs Xs-300 and Xs ?

So what options do we have?

• You can get the pass labs XS-300
• you can buy 113 Yamaha P7000S P Series II, not sure why you want 113 of these amps
• you can get two bridged Yamaha P7000S P Series II and go to Bora Bora on vacation every year for the rest of your life
• You can spend $2200 extra and get a BMW X5 M and two bridged Yamaha P7000S P Series II
• you can get yourself a BMW M3 coupe and two bridged Yamaha P7000S P Series II and have $24500 to spend on vacations
• you can get 8 brand new Mark Levinson 533H and still have $5000 left

 

[canelli]

This seems sort off topic now , but I finished my quest for a new power amplifier. I decided on the Parasound A51. It fit my needs for 5 channels of good clean power, reputable product and service, easy to work with salesman, and convenient.

I passed on the ML due to a worry of cost of repairs and not really knowing how it was “used”.

The Anthem A5 was a nice product, but the A51 provides a little more current.

I would have liked to try several of the pros amplifiers, but I know my wife would have gotten frustrated with me continually auditioning / buying / returning different products.

The sound difference between the A51 and the first generations of Pioneer ICE receiver is night and day. This is where my new found belief in good pure current originated.

 

[DenPureSound]

I hope for your sake that DT rates their amps more accurately than they do frequency response.

Just try and run, Bass Head by Bassnectar and see what you got there?

1500W RMS per SuperCube per Speaker, and I swear I saw Smoke with that Track.

Had to call the Fire Dept. at -15dB down from Ref. on the Relative Scale, as I thought there was an Earthquake.