An OK pairing

[Marlow]

I've recently found my way into owning a McIntosh MA6500. I wanted to get some better speakers to hook up for stereo sound.

I was looking at these two models:
KEF iQ90BL
Mirage OMD15

Would either work better? Would either (or both) be a mistake?

 

[Marlow]

must have been a really dumb question...

 

[Adam]

Not dumb to me. I just have no idea what the answer is. To me, the best way to answer that question is to audition those speakers. Get them in your home if possible, as that's the only real way to find out how they will sound to you once you get them all hooked up.

Congrats on the McIntosh, btw. My jealousy meter is pegged.

 

[Marlow]

I may be doing something wrong here, but going bi-amp using a & b the Q9's seriously lack umph on the mid and low end. The highs are impressive and crystalline, but the drums and bass get swamped by the vocals, guitars, etc. I suppose it is a matter of taste though, because my wife says they sound way better than the C7's setup the same way. If I kick on the "loud" switch it sounds better, but that wasn't necessary with the C7's. If I crank the bass knob up 3 notches and dial back the treble 3 as well I can get some enjoyment without the "loud" button on. I thought the "loud" button was for use at low volume levels? I know I should just dial it in to taste. It doesn't do any harm to any of the equipment to leave loud on, or alternatively to crank the bass level up, right? From an engineering standpoint, which is a better idea?

 

[Adam]

Just a thought on having weaker bass when you bi-amped - double check and make sure that you have everything hooked up in phase. If you have one set of wires out of phase, then I believe you'd experience that.

 

[Marlow]

Thanks for the starting point...

I think I've double checked.

Right Speaker

Left Speaker

All my +'s are red and -'s black... Speakers 1 are feeding the bottom set and speakers 2 are feeding the top set...

Another way to describe what I'm hearing. The bass drum sounds like someone popping a P in a microphone. Not rich at all unless I turn "loud" on. It seems that the mids get washed out a little with "loud" on at higher volume levels.

I'm sure there's an explanation for this. Wouldn't have been 100% surprised if yours was it. Wish it has been TBH

Would be funny if I opted for the C7's over the Q9's that are supposedly more capable.

Is it possible (ug, this feels like a dumb question) that the MA6500 isn't powerful enough for the Q9's? They are operate at 8 ohms, and the McManual says that the 6500 puts out 100 Watts at 8 ohms... Bah, this is nonsensical though because the C7's are 8 ohms with 15-200 watt handling ranges... Stinks being new to this... lIfe was easier before I heard the differences...

 

[Marlow]

A lot of typos there! Sorry. Fat fingurs on an iPhone during a late and frustrating hour.

 

[Adam]

You typed that on an iPhone? Impressive - I'm not very good at writing posts on my phone.

Hopefully someone else will chime in here with some thoughts.

Btw, I just started looking for the MA6500 owner's manual online. I'm surprised that McIntosh doesn't seem to have any information except for their current product line (unless I'm missing something).

 

[TLS Guy]

I may be doing something wrong here, but going bi-amp using a & b the Q9's seriously lack umph on the mid and low end. The highs are impressive and crystalline, but the drums and bass get swamped by the vocals, guitars, etc. I suppose it is a matter of taste though, because my wife says they sound way better than the C7's setup the same way. If I kick on the "loud" switch it sounds better, but that wasn't necessary with the C7's. If I crank the bass knob up 3 notches and dial back the treble 3 as well I can get some enjoyment without the "loud" button on. I thought the "loud" button was for use at low volume levels? I know I should just dial it in to taste. It doesn't do any harm to any of the equipment to leave loud on, or alternatively to crank the bass level up, right? From an engineering standpoint, which is a better idea?

You are not biamping, you are bi-wiring, since speakers 1 & 2 use the same amps. Both Bi wiring and passive bi-amping are a waste of time and just increase the risk of making a mistake, which obviously you have done, as what you did, if done correctly, would make no difference to the sound.

 

[Marlow]

You are not biamping, you are bi-wiring, since speakers 1 & 2 use the same amps. Both Bi wiring and passive bi-amping are a waste of time and just increase the risk of making a mistake, which obviously you have done, as what you did, if done correctly, would make no difference to the sound.

You would know better than I, but my c7's sound much better biwired. Also I believe it does make a difference in terms of power delivered to the speakers. I believe the ma6500 offers 200w per channel at 4 ohms and 100 at 8. By using both speaker systems i'm getting more power to the speakers right? Also, what mistake have I made?

Obviously you've seen something in the pictures.

 

[TLS Guy]

You would know better than I, but my c7's sound much better biwired. Also I believe it does make a difference in terms of power delivered to the speakers. I believe the ma6500 offers 200w per channel at 4 ohms and 100 at 8. By using both speaker systems i'm getting more power to the speakers right? Also, what mistake have I made?

Obviously you've seen something in the pictures.

No, you are not adding 1 more watt of power to your speakers. There are only two amps in the case, one for left and one for right.

The switch is after the amps. It is in the speaker leads. So you are bi-wiring.

The only way using two sets of speaker leads instead of one, will make a difference to the sound is if you make a mistake.

 

[Marlow]

No, you are not adding 1 more watt of power to your speakers. There are only two amps in the case, one for left and one for right.

The switch is after the amps. It is in the speaker leads. So you are bi-wiring.

The only way using two sets of speaker leads instead of one, will make a difference to the sound is if you make a mistake.

Switched to using speakers one alone. No change.

 

[TLS Guy]

Switched to using speakers one alone. No change.

Quad errat demonstrandum.

 

[GranteedEV]

Also I believe it does make a difference in terms of power delivered to the speakers. I believe the ma6500 offers 200w per channel at 4 ohms and 100 at 8. By using both speaker systems i'm getting more power to the speakers right?

I recommend you read this thread that I started. While I no doubt must have made some lazy factual errors, I'm pretty confident it should give you a stronger understanding of what's ACTUALLY going on. Biwiring, btw, will not change anything measurably (or audibly, unless you believe in voodoo)

Also, what mistake have I made?

Your mistake, is simply that you don't like the sound of the KEFs in your room, for whatever reason. Nothing more, nothing less. It may be possible to tweak until you get a balance you like, or perhaps they're just not the right speakers for you. Since you've now got a true solid 100WPC amplifier, you need to find speakers you like. Turn off any built in EQ switches on the amplifier. Because they lack the necessary resolution (1/12th of an octave parametric) to do meaningful equalization, they will do more harm then good.

Start by forgetting anything you've heard before about amplifier/speaker synergy, or mating, or any of that stuff. You need to find speakers that work in the room you've got to your preference. That's where the synergy will be. It'll be a long road so be patient with your wallet and remember that every time you audition, your eyes and brain are influencing what you hear as much as your ears. Figure out what you want to hear. You'll get there.

NOW - go order a pair of these:

philharmonicaudio.com

 

[Marlow]

I recommend you read this thread that I started. While I no doubt must have made some lazy factual errors, I'm pretty confident it should give you a stronger understanding of what's ACTUALLY going on. Biwiring, btw, will not change anything measurably (or audibly, unless you believe in voodoo)




Your mistake, is simply that you don't like the sound of the KEFs in your room, for whatever reason. Nothing more, nothing less. It may be possible to tweak until you get a balance you like, or perhaps they're just not the right speakers for you. Since you've now got a true solid 100WPC amplifier, you need to find speakers you like. Turn off any built in EQ switches on the amplifier. Because they lack the necessary resolution (1/12th of an octave parametric) to do meaningful equalization, they will do more harm then good.

Start by forgetting anything you've heard before about amplifier/speaker synergy, or mating, or any of that stuff. You need to find speakers that work in the room you've got to your preference. That's where the synergy will be. It'll be a long road so be patient with your wallet and remember that every time you audition, your eyes and brain are influencing what you hear as much as your ears. Figure out what you want to hear. You'll get there.

NOW - go order a pair of these:

philharmonicaudio.com

I think you are right, and thanks for telling me in such a way that I don't feel like you are talking down to me or that suggests that I'm a dumba$$. Those speakers you linked to are on the list now . For now I think the q's are going on the home theater system with the sub woofer. They should sound great with the help of a 10". The C7's sounded great so I will use them. Just one last question: the highs sounded awesome on the Q9's... Could/should I add a powered sub? I noticed that the amp has RCA outs that are controlled (in terms of volume) by the amp.

 

[Adam]

I was under the impression that the Q9s sounded good to you when connected with single wires, but that you then lost some bass when you bi-wired (or be-amped, or whatever anyone wants to call it ). After rereading this, I don't see that you mention trying it without bi-wiring to begin with. Correct?

Either way, I think that Grant is right. It's not a connection issue, it's a speaker/room issue. Something that I suggest doing is running a set of test tones and using a sound pressure level (SPL) meter to record the output at your listening position. The test tones will be at a constant frequency, so you can step up in frequency over a range and check what the response looks like where you sit. I have a CD with test tones, but you can also download them off the net and make your own CD. I used to do that for my subwoofer until I got it dialed in. The goal (for me, anyway) was to get as flat of a frequency response as I could at my listening position. You might find that there's a dip in the response around where the bass drum frequency is, and moving the speakers (or furniture) a bit might help out with that. There's also room treatments, but I haven't gone that far myself.

With my past two receivers, I use the auto calibration routines that take care of a lot of that for me. I love that feature on modern receivers, but I don't believe that yours has it - hence, the recommendation to do it manually.

 

[Marlow]

You are correct. I biwired from jump street thinking I was getting something out it. I would love a link to the test tones you suggest. I will google for them if it's that easy. Yeah, I think it's jut the speakers. Again, with the help of a sub, I think they would sound amazing. Just don't know how to go about that in the best way.

 

[Adam]

After a quick search, I like the tones at this link here. You can play them straight from that page, or scroll to the bottom to find the link to download all of the tones in a compressed file.

 

[Marlow]

OK, I've got the files downloaded and put onto a CD. I don't have a meter of any type, so I guess I'm going to have to dig around the net to see how to make best use of them.

My guess is that you want each tone to have an even decibel level. This is all seeming about as easy as flying to the moon on a bicycle, because I only have a bass knob, treble knob and loudness button to adjust with LOL.

I'm planning on adding a subwoofer with RCA line level inputs running from the "Main Out" RCA jack on the MA6500... On page 13 of the manual it says,

"...use both a separate power amplifier (I'm viewing a powered sub as a separate amplifier) and the MA6500 built-in power amplifier. Connect one pair of loudspeakers to the separate power amplifier (the powered sub is like speakers and amp in one in my view) and the second/third pair to the MA6500. Set the rear panel POWER AMP INPUT Switch to the INT position. Note: The MA6500 VOLUME Control will affect the sound level of all the loudspeakers."

http://akdatabase.org/AKview/albums/userpics/10004/MA6500 Owners.pdf

So, this should allow me to take advantage of the better upper range of the Q9's and add some base to even things out. It looks like this will work because the Mc's volume control will control the level going out to the sub.

Reading these ideas, it shouldn't be hard to see how newbs get into trouble.