Talk the new guy off the ledge ... how much to put into a sub?

[cms3333]

OK I’m having major problems with myself over what to do with my sub situation. Right now my sub is nonexistent. I have two PSB T-5s as my towers, a PSB C-5 as my center, and two Def Tech BP1.2x as the surrounds run by a Denon AVR-1910. I am fairly new to home theater, speakers, etc. so I guess this is a “decent” setup. I’m running into trouble with dishing out a ton of money on a sub. I’m torn between the ”just get something since something is better than nothing” and the “go balls to the wall and push your budget $200+ over what you would/should/could spend.”

In my search for my PSBs, I got into the same predicament. Should I spend a ton to get something “better” or just get something that works? The thing that helped me decide was going around and listening to the speakers. In the end, I liked the cheaper PSBs over the B&W 684s. So I got a cheaper speaker for what I found to be a better sound. It seems like this won’t be an option since many of the subs that are recommended around here are directly from the manufacturers.

From looking here and from other sources here are a few subs that have peaked my interest at each price point.
BIC F12 – Price is right at $200 on Amazon (after tax) and other sources have given it good reviews.
HSU STF-2 ($350). Good Price. Seems like it has decent reviews.
Rythmik FV12 – ($500) A little more than what I’ve budgeted for but seems to be a consensus pick around here. Not a real attractive though.
Outlaw LMF-1 Plus, VTF-2 Mk4 ($550), Epik Legend ($600) – Really pushing the budget here but once again these seem to be highly recommended.
SVS PC12-NSD ($750) – YEAH Buddy! Spending money on something that would hopefully last me a long time and sound amazing the entire time. Way over budget, good looking, and from reviews, a great sub.

I know there are a million threads that start exactly the same asking for recommendations but it seems there is always that one little detail that the new guy doesn’t know that changes the recommendations. So for the information to help make your recommendations…
My entertaining room is about 12’ x 28’ with 8’ ceilings. The room is split in half, tv, stereo, seating on one side. Fireplace facing a hallway on the opposite side in the middle. Bar area on the far end. Windows are small since it is a half basement (foundation about half way up) and there are only 4 of them. Surprisingly, the sound out of my speakers sounded better in this bigger room than in my apartment. Mids and “lows” were much better. Floor space is also at a premium on the tv end of the room. Couches line the back and side wall while the TV sit across on the wall with the hallway door.
This is an all around system. I use it for 1/3 TV watching, 1/3 music (everything from country, to hard rock, to pop/hip-hop),and the remaining 1/3 is split between games and movies.
My main goal isn’t to have house shaking, window rattling bass. I more just want to fill in that low end and get the information and detail that I am missing.

So the true question here is should I spend $200 and just get into my first sub knowing there are better out there but staying within my budget and not truly knowing what I’m missing, should I break the bank and get what is said to be a great sounding sub, or is there a happy medium?

Sorry for the long, rambling post… Any help would greatly appreciated!

 

[shadyJ]

You don't seem to be factoring shipping into the price. The only sub there with shipping included into the pricing is the SVS PC12 NSD. All the other large 12" subs will probably cost between $75 to $90 additionally to ship.

Probably everyone here would tell you to get the best you can afford. You have a somewhat large room, so I think you'll want the $500+ subs at the very least. If you desperately need the floorspace, go with the SVS PC12. I think it would do deep bass the best out of all you listed as well.

A sub you might consider is the Elemental Designs A3-300. I wouldn't be surprised if it could do deep bass as well as the PC12, and its much cheaper. I think it would handle your room with aplomb. I had one for a little while, that thing is a beast, and probably the $/db champ of any that you listed.

The Rythmik would be good too, and it wouldn't eat up quite as much floor space as the ED, Hsu, or Outlaw subs. It's also slightly cheaper.

The Outlaw and Hsu VTF2 subs are good as well. They have variable tuning so you can customize the sound and exchange deep bass for louder bass. They are perfectly sized for an endtable, and the Outlaw sub even has a nice-looking plexiglass top. The Outlaw has a more powerful amp, but the VTF2 has more tuning modes and a Q control.

If you can accommodate an endtable type sub and the extra money, consider the Hsu VTF3. It has has extremely deep bass, likely deeper than any of the others, variable tuning, continuously variable Q control, and big output through all frequencies. It is only $10 more than the SVS PC12, but it is fairly large though. That would be my first choice, and presently there is a $40 discount.

 

[templemaners]

I think the worthwhile subs start around $500. You never really said how much your budgeting, but it looks like around ~$400. The problem you may run into with a cheaper sub is the potential of being disappointed in performance & contracting a case of 'upgraditis'.

I'd probably look into the Rythmik, HSU or Outlaw subs. Outlaw does occasionally have sales on their subs, which I believe includes free shipping, so that can save a few extra dollars if you're patient. HSU and Rythmik also have sales from time to time. The FV12 is currently on sale. And if you're interested in the PB12-NSD, you can always keep an eye on the SVS outlet for some B-Stock specials.

 

[FirstReflection]

When it comes to subs, the room tells you a whole lot about what kind of output you're going to need. A sub doesn't "know" that only a section of that room is designated as the "theater" area. It just tries to pressurize the entire open space!

You've got a pretty large space to fill - technically on the larger side of a "medium" sized room at over 2500 cubic feet, but under 3000 cubic feet (I'm assuming the ceiling is around 8 feet since this is a basement).

To me, "proper" bass starts at $500 (plus about $60 shipping) with the Rythmik FV12. As I've said in many other threads, it is the least expensive sub that doesn't have any obvious compromises to any part of its sound. Below that price point and particular model, you're making some sort of obvious trade off. Either the sub will not play the deepest bass (the below 30-35Hz stuff), or it will play low, but give up "tightness" in the transient response, which leads to a "less quick" sound with notes sometimes blurring into each other, or just less accuracy or higher distortion.

The FV12 gives a very nice balance of all aspects with no real weaknesses. If you're looking to keep your subwoofer budget as low as possible, that's where I would point you.

The FV12 will certainly not have enough output to play at reference volume levels in your room. But you've already said that you aren't looking to blow the doors off or anything The thing is, when you have low distortion, things do not SEEM "loud". With our human hearing, we strongly associate distortion with "loudness". In strict terms of sound pressure level, a sound that is technically quieter (lower dB reading on an SPL meter) can still seem "louder" to us if it has high distortion vs. a sound that is technically louder (higher dB), but lacks distortion. So with a nice, clean sub like the FV12, it's easy to keep turning it up!

Thankfully, the FV12 is very well engineered and will not damage itself or go into crazy high distortion if you crank the volume. Thanks to its well made limiters and filters, it will simply play as loud as it can and then politely stop getting any louder

With all of that praise out of the way, I would still be far more comfortable with higher output capability in your room size. With floor space at a premium, there is no question that SVSound's cylinder subs take up the least amount of floor space while delivering true linear extension all the way down to 20Hz (or lower), and much like the Rythmik subs, an "unbreakable" amplifier that will simply and politely refuse to play any louder than the sub can safely and cleanly play. The PC12-NSD is obviously more expensive than the FV12. It is also a more capable sub. So that's where your extra money is going It can play a bit lower and it can play a bit louder. It's perhaps just a hair cleaner too, although it's really too close to call on that front. We're not talking monumental differences here, but they are definite improvements for the higher price tag. And if you need the floor space, nothing beats the 16.5" diameter cylinder form factor

It is important to know that it makes PERFECT sense to spend proportionally more on your subwoofer than any other component in your system. Subwoofers have a difficult job. They are also what takes your experience from mere "surround sound" to "theater" quality! When we think of the thrill of movie theater or live concert sound, it really is the deep, strong, tactile bass that completes the experience. It's the thing we most often lack when we try to recreate the experience at home! So don't even think about skimping on the sub. Go without surround speakers. Go without a center speaker. But don't cheap out on the sub! If you're going to "splurge" anywhere, spend extra on the sub. It'll pay you back with a great sense of enjoyment than anything other than your Front L/R Main speakers!

To be perfectly honest, in your room size, if you were able to afford it, I'd be springing for an SVSound PC12-Plus or a Rythmik FV15HP! But then again, I love reference level bass and find it hard to accept anything less than an SVSound PC13-Ultra these days Actually, scratch that. I find it hard to accept less than A PAIR of PC13-Ultra $3500 on subs (after I get a pair of Auralex SubDude isolation risers to put under the two PC13-Ultra cylinders)? Absolutely! Money well spent

 

[cms3333]

Once again guys, great advice … thank you.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the A3-300 or the VTF3? On the VTF is shipping $110 to make it $10 more than the SVS? And yeah I wasn’t factoring in shipping. Didn’t think of that.

If I was to make a compromise and go low but give a little tightness what might you recommend. I’m still on the fence of going all out or making a compromise.

I would love to be able to get an ultra but that is way out of the budget. Spending $750 is pushing it right now. At the $650-750 price point, is the SVS what is recommended or what else should I look into?

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think you'll have to worry about pressurizing the entire open space since your couch is against the wall. When your listening position is in the middle of a large room, many times the bass sound can be absent even if the subwoofer is really being pushed hard, this phenomenon is called a "bass null". Near the room surfaces, on the other hand, is where the subs will be heard the easiest. When you get your sub, listen for the difference, it should be clear.

I'm certain VTF3 would have the deepest bass, it has strong output all the way down to 16 hz, I don't think any of those other subs will reach that low with as much output, not even the PC12. It is also very accurate, so you don't have to give any of that up either. The catch is it is fairly large though and the most expensive, and, if floor space is a factor, I would recommend you do a mockup of the size before you place an order for one.

For deep bass, next to the VTF3, I think the A3-300 or PB12 might be neck-to-neck, with both having claimed specs of -3db at 18 hz. Given what I heard from the A3 and also SVS's reputation for integrity, I have no reason to disbelieve either claim.

The Rythmik, Outlaw, and Hsu VTF2 ought to have similar deep bass output, but I would guess the Outlaw and Hsu VTF2 might get just a little bit deeper given their slightly larger enclosure size. Deep bass is basically a result of an equation which factors driver excursion, cabinet volume, port length, and port diameter. The Rythmik, VTF2, and Outlaw are smaller cabinets with shorter ports, they will still get deep, but they won't be the 20 hz trawlers that the A3 or PC12 are, or especially the VTF3.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, I'm pretty much in agreement with ShadyJ about the subs mentioned here. I'm a big fan of the HSU VTF-3. But it is BIG, so just be sure that you really understand the size of the box! I personally prefer to run HSU's subs with both ports open. Blocking one port does extend the linear output a bit lower, but you cut down the headroom and up the distortion when you do so. With both ports open, there's very little difference in extension between the VTF-3 and a sub like the SVSound PC12-NSD. Really no "wrong" or "bad" choice between those two!

If you want to keep the price down and you'd rather have extension and the expense of a little bit of "tightness", eD and Epik are two good brands to consider. I personally favor tightness and delineation, so they're not quite my cup o' tea. But for people with a little different taste, they certainly have a lot of fans! Epik's subs also are a little more physically compact, so that might appeal to you

 

[cms3333]

Sounds good. I like the look of the Epik subs but they are pretty much at the same price as the others at $600 and it sounds like they have amp problems. I might just hold off for a while and save up. How does the SVS return/upgrade policy work? Maybe I could work myself up to an ultra over the next couple years. Ill look into the eDs and keep you guys updated. Thanks

 

[billy p]

I dunno why some people continually recommend eD subs..... All you need to do is read some of the sub forums over AVS regarding eD's amp issues and lack of customer service and constant product change over to know there are MUCH better alternatives out there.

 

[ahblaza]

Sounds good. I like the look of the Epik subs but they are pretty much at the same price as the others at $600 and it sounds like they have amp problems. I might just hold off for a while and save up. How does the SVS return/upgrade policy work? Maybe I could work myself up to an ultra over the next couple years. Ill look into the eDs and keep you guys updated. Thanks

I own the Epik Legend and am really impressed with its performance, it is a sealed design with dual 12" woofers, no amp problems and Chad is a good guy to deal with, customer service for me has been excellent. Placement is not difficult to deal with. Price is $499 + $79 shipping, dual Legends are $899 + $91 shipping. In room extension is 16-18Hz, in my room low 20's is very achievable with good output. I'm in the process of getting a second Legend as my room has been made larger to accommodate another sub. There is a thirty day return option if you are not satisfied. I chose Epik because that's all they do is subs and Chad gave me the option to purchase my second Legend as though I bought two so I get the second for $400. Just my 2 cents.
Cheers Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

I dunno why some people continually recommend eD subs..... All you need to do is read some of the sub forums over AVS regarding eD's amp issues and lack of customer service and constant product change over to know there are MUCH better alternatives out there.

I agree....

 

[mvc]

What about buying used? With some patience, may be you can find a good used sub for less than half the price from audiogon or craiglist.

 

[shadyJ]

About ED, they are not using their own amps for the time being, last I heard was the A3 was being shipped with a BASH 300 watt amp. If I were to order a A3-300, I would call them up and make sure they have them in stock and ready to ship. For $600 shipped, that is one punchy sub. Its heavy too, ED is serious about their cabinet bracing. I have never had to deal with ED's customer service, but from what I have read, it is generally good. I have read accounts of a few displeased customers, but I have read a whole lot more praises for ED's customer service. Its a shame that you guys are slagging ED, for someone who wants a hard-hitting sub on a tight budget, they are a great option.

 

[shadyJ]

I dunno why some people continually recommend eD subs..... All you need to do is read some of the sub forums over AVS regarding eD's amp issues and lack of customer service and constant product change over to know there are MUCH better alternatives out there.

They have a somewhat different business model than, say Hsu or SVS. They have much greater flexibility in designing and offering different subs, but the cost of that is lead times for the subs they do offer, since they make everything right where they are. Hsu, Epik, and SVS are not about to make you a custom designed sub or speaker. ED has a creative freedom that no other sub company enjoys (except maybe Funk Audio), but that comes at a price. Some of their amp designs look like they have reliability issues, namely the lt.500 and lt.1300. Since they are now using other amps, I wouldn't be concerned about that.

As far as customer service, I am sure I could call them at business hours and get ahold of someone and have them take care of me if I needed to. They do give the same personalized services as any of these other ID companies from what I know.

With all that being said, yes, one should look at the thread at AVSforum and also their own company forum, and approach them as an informed buyer, aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I would be willing to buy from them, but I would certainly be close contact to get a realistic idea of the lead times and and a firm idea of the product status, with an understanding that their more experimental products may take a long time to complete.

You are definitely blowing their problems way out of proportion. As far as better alternatives, there is no other company that can give you the deep bass subwoofers do at their prices, or are as accommodating of customized designs. As far as I know, no other company makes as solid cabinets as they do either, and they have actually been criticized for over-bracing their cabinets which is more like a compliment in the face of an industry that constantly take the cheaper path.

 

[Charlie Freak]

I've got a SVS PC12-NSD in a 16' x 12' x 8' room and it will certainly shake the room, couch, the windows downstairs, the silverware in the kitchen, and anything else that's not nailed down. I've never seen the limiter light-up with musical content, period. Even with very bass heavy music at unsafe volume levels.

I have, however, seen the limiter engage (just a tiny little blink) in the War of the Worlds scene where the first pod emerges from the ground. That was at -15 from reference with Audyssey Dynamic EQ on, and the sub is not corner loaded. You might think that -15 is not very loud, but in that scene the rumble is fairly extreme, and would probably floor a small child.

Based on the fact that your room is quite a bit larger than mine, that sub wouldn't be enough - if you wanted the full effect of such a 'rumbly' movie scene at normal listening levels. (I almost never watch movies at higher than -15, and consider -20 to -15 as normal)

You said that you're not really after the "house shaking, window rattling bass". So perhaps it would be OK - particularly with musical content which will be FAR less demanding than War of the Worlds.

I can't compare it to the other choices you mentioned, as I haven't heard any of those in my own home, but maybe this will give you some idea of what the SVS is capable of.

 

[mike c]

About ED, they are not using their own amps for the time being, last I heard was the A3 was being shipped with a BASH 300 watt amp. If I were to order a A3-300, I would call them up and make sure they have them in stock and ready to ship. For $600 shipped, that is one punchy sub. Its heavy too, ED is serious about their cabinet bracing. I have never had to deal with ED's customer service, but from what I have read, it is generally good. I have read accounts of a few displeased customers, but I have read a whole lot more praises for ED's customer service. Its a shame that you guys are slagging ED, for someone who wants a hard-hitting sub on a tight budget, they are a great option.

it's not good. they have great pre-sales customer service, they bent over backwards. BUT when the problems came ... it's all suddenly my fault.

i had to PAY half the cost of the drivers to get them fixed, and they worded it like i should be super thankful for that.

product quality? ... not even on the same page.

 

[billy p]

They have a somewhat different business model than, say Hsu or SVS. They have much greater flexibility in designing and offering different subs, but the cost of that is lead times for the subs they do offer, since they make everything right where they are. Hsu, Epik, and SVS are not about to make you a custom designed sub or speaker. ED has a creative freedom that no other sub company enjoys (except maybe Funk Audio), but that comes at a price. Some of their amp designs look like they have reliability issues, namely the lt.500 and lt.1300. Since they are now using other amps, I wouldn't be concerned about that.

As far as customer service, I am sure I could call them at business hours and get ahold of someone and have them take care of me if I needed to. They do give the same personalized services as any of these other ID companies from what I know.

With all that being said, yes, one should look at the thread at AVSforum and also their own company forum, and approach them as an informed buyer, aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I would be willing to buy from them, but I would certainly be close contact to get a realistic idea of the lead times and and a firm idea of the product status, with an understanding that their more experimental products may take a long time to complete.

You are definitely blowing their problems way out of proportion. As far as better alternatives, there is no other company that can give you the deep bass subwoofers do at their prices, or are as accommodating of customized designs. As far as I know, no other company makes as solid cabinets as they do either, and they have actually been criticized for over-bracing their cabinets which is more like a compliment in the face of an industry that constantly take the cheaper path.

Sounds like they should model themselves more as a custom builder rather then a ID retailer....maybe that is their underlying problem....? Just for the record... I never heard or seen a eD sub in person so I can't comment...but usually if there is smoke... there is fire.... No pun intended there...lol.

 

[cms3333]

Lot of opinions on eD. I will need to look into them more once I get back to kansas and try to weigh the risks. But for today ... ITS GAME DAY... K-State is hog hunting looking for a cotton bowl victory. Should be a good game. Sorry know that's completely of topic but...yeah.

 

[billy p]

Lot of opinions on eD. I will need to look into them more once I get back to kansas and try to weigh the risks. But for today ... ITS GAME DAY... K-State is hog hunting looking for a cotton bowl victory. Should be a good game. Sorry know that's completely of topic but...yeah.

Good luck...I like the Razors...fwiw....

 

[cms3333]

Alright back from vacation … Congrats to Arkansas. They played a good game. Back on track …

Buying used in my area, Wichita, KS, isn’t really an option from what I’ve seen. I have been looking around for a while and haven’t really found anything but the standard polk, klipsch, etc stuff on there. There just isn’t the amount of people down here to find good used equipment on a regular basis.

eD’s amps seem to be a concern with many people. Same with customer service. If they are using BASH amps now should I consider them a little more? The SVS is just a little too far out of my price range right now. I think I have narrowed my selection down to these, probably in this order:
HSU VTF-2 Mk4
Epik Legend
eD A3-300
Rythmik FV12
Outlaw LFM-1 Plus

I know everyone loves the Rythmik but it seems to be the biggest of the bunch. Some of the others aren’t far behind. For this reason alone, I think I like the Legend. It is also one of the cheapest, even though only about $50 separates all of these after shipping (I think). But overall something is leaning toward the VTF-2. How would you guys rank these?

Once again thanks for the help and all the comments!