Change receiver or go to seperat amps?

S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
Ive been using a Onkyo 876 for a few years now. After finding out I cant send digital audio to separate zones Ive been a little bummed about it.

Anyhow my next hurdle is getting more out of the receiver. I am using 4 Ohm speakers and the receiver is in 4 Ohm mode, Ive been reading that Onkyo drastically reduces power to all channels in 4 Ohm mode.

I have been to Yamaha's web site a few times in the past couple weeks... :)

I dont really want to shell out bucks for a new receiver right now, but I would love to have more power, and the ability to play digital media to all zones.

Ive thought about external amps, but I have never used one.

I am looking for advice on how to use and set up external amps. I currently have a 5.1 set up with no plans to change other than maybe a second sub.

So do I get one 3ch and one 2ch, or just one 5ch? How will separates effect my zone2?

Or, would it be better to sell the Onkyo and invest the amp money plus money made on the Onkyo and get a better receiver?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
We don't know if your 876 has adequate power without knowing your room size/shape, how loud you listen and specs of your speakers. In your sig we may guess that you have SVS but it is not clear which models you have. Some of the SVS models are rated 8 ohms nominal but yours are 4 ohms? If we have more details we may be able to say set the 876 to 8 ohms. If you do need an external amp, yes you have the option to add a 2,3, 5 or 7 channel amp depending on your specific needs.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Unless things have changed recently, most receivers lack the ability to send digital to other than zone 1. That would entail more DACs in the rceiver which would add to the cost.

But, my info could be out of date. You might want to see what the market offers.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I would take your reciever out
of 4 ohm mode. I used to run my 805 that way with no issues and my towers are 4 ohm rated.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I'd try it like Jeff R said and see if it works for the sound levels you normally listen at, if not, add an amp. If it doesn't sound like the speakers are struggling, then you probably don't need an amp. If you tend to listen loud and they do sound like they are struggling, then an amp would likely be a good thing no matter what receiver you have.

There were only one or two receivers that I've seen that had the ability to send digital to another zone, and those were flagship, aka: top dollar, receivers.
 
Knucklehead90

Knucklehead90

Audioholic
For a bit more power you might try putting the AVR back in 8ohm mode to see if that helps. Monitor how hot it gets. Adding an 80/120mm computer fan to pull hot air off the top can aide in keeping the magic smoke in.

Your 876 is still one of the more powerful AVRs made. Very few of the newer models can exceed it. Adding an external 2/3 channel amp may help but it'll need to be a powerful one if you want to notice a difference. Cheapest route is a pro amp. Problem is the fans might be too loud for you - they were for me. Fan mods may have to be factored in when buying a pro amp. If you have a separate equipment room then this would not be a concern.

Very few AVRs can play digital content to the zones. Adding an external DAC such as the Emotiva XDA-1 might be a consideration. Keep in mind that a CD player has analog out - you can put a CD-R in one with lots of MP3 music and play it in the zones. Same with any iPod/iPad etc - use the analog out to zone II/III. Put that old almost useless DVD/CD player to work for zone II use. Most of them can play a DVD full of MP3s just fine. I have a pair of old Harman Kardon DVD 38 players that could be used for just that. They could play DVD-Rs full of MP3s for hours if I wished.
 
S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
I emailed SVS, the response I got was kind of cryptic ... almost like they are saying, we don't support it... but our equipment can handle 8 Ohms but we can't be responsible if it damages your equipment.


Here is their reply... How do you guys interpret it?

That depends on how tolerant your amp section is of lower impedance loads. The 'nominal' impedance rating of any speaker inherently implies that it will drop below that rating over at least some of the pass band. I've attached the specs binders for the S-series, and you can look at the impedance curves and make the decision. You might even want to consult with Onkyo.

As an aside, the amp sections on today's AVRs are rather weak and intolerant of lower impedance loads. The lower the impedance, the more current the speaker draws from the AVR. If you want true high-performance and effortless power, and not have to worry about what impedance load your speakers present to the amp, then I recommend investing in an external amp. Your AVR will require pre-outs for all speaker channels in order to use an external amp.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Here is their reply... How do you guys interpret it?
Pretty straight forward. Speakers have a nominal impedance, but they'll have a lower impedance at some points. The lower the impedance, the higher the current draw from the amp at any given volume level. Sounds like they sent you the specs. I don't see where you've told us which speakers you have, so we can't add any more specific details regarding their impedance.

You've gotten good advice here. Take your Onkyo out of 4-Ohm mode and see how it works for you. If the Onkyo doesn't go into protection mode, you're good. An 8-Ohm speaker can require more current if you play it louder, after all. It all comes down to how you use your system.
 
S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
the speakers I am using are in my signature, the SVS S series with bipole rear surrounds. I would post individual specs later tonight, currently posting from cell phone. I will also switch to 8 ohm mode and try it out.



I guys what I am trying to achieve is more room filling sound. I think most of my problem is the size of the room. As it is, in 4 ohm mode it gets loud, but I feel it has to be turned up very high to get the room "filled" somewhere around -10db...


I think my next step will be actually setting the db level with a meter instead of depending on Audysee.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
the speakers I am using are in my signature, the SVS S series with bipole rear surrounds.
Hi. I see that, but do you have the -01 or the -02 models for your 5.0 set? This gets back to what Peng mentioned above. All of the -02 models are listed at 8-ohm nominal (I just haven't looked enough to find specs on -01).
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The S series are pretty low sensitivity from what I recall, so I'd say that is also a factor. I heard the bookshelf models driven of a 100w SonyES receiver and they filled a medium sized room fairly well, but they did sound like they would have liked more power.
 
S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
they are -02's.

maybe that is my problem, being that this is my fist "high end" set up I really haven't heard much else to compare.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
SBS or SCS? I heard the SBS-01s which were 85dB sensitivity. The -02s are 82dB, which will translate into a noticeable drop in output even from the previous versions and is comparatively low for speakers on the market today. Also, all of the S Series speakers are listed as 8 Ohm; so it is more likely that the sensitivity is what is hurting you and is why you have to crank it higher to get the kind of sound you are after. Adjusting the calibration manually will likely help a bit, but if the problem is the sensitivity, then an amp is probably the answer so you have more headroom.
 
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S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
I have the SCS and SSS... my SCS are configured as towers and have the designation STS... but I think they are basically a SCS
 
S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
STS Specs

Impedance (graph) Nominal Minimum Phase
Bandwidth
-6dB
Amplitude response (graph) To 15k Hz
Dispersion (graph) Sensitivity
2.83V@1-Meter full space
Bass alignment
Sealed
Inter-driver Phase response
400 Hz to 4.7k Hz
Recommended amplifier power
80W to 320W
6 ohm 4.3 ohm + -37 degrees
60 to 18k Hz
+/ -1.5 dB
90.0 dB
-3dB @75 Hz, 0.7Q roll off
Less than 45° phase difference
12 (4 in the series signal paths) 3 elements in 1 circuit Linkwitz-Riley 24 dB/oct @ 2.4 kHz Custom 6dB-24 dB/oct transitional filter
 
Knucklehead90

Knucklehead90

Audioholic
Don't use the volume control numbers to figure out if you are getting the sound levels you want. Use your ears. -10db isn't even reference level - assuming you've ran Audyssey. 0db is reference level and often is too loud for many listeners. You have around 20db of volume left. Maybe more depending on where Audyssey sets your speaker levels. Don't worry about sound levels unless you start hearing clipping.

You can set crossover frequencies at 80-90hz and let the sub(s) carry more of the low frequency load - which requires more power than the upper frequencies. This helps take a bit of the load off the AVR.

I don't see anything in your speaker's specs that would indicate they are difficult to drive - rather average at best - and 6 ohms. Look at your room interactions - is there lots of soft surfaces like carpets and overstuffed chairs that absorb sound?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
STS Specs

Impedance (graph) Nominal Minimum Phase
Bandwidth
-6dB
Amplitude response (graph) To 15k Hz
Dispersion (graph) Sensitivity
2.83V@1-Meter full space
Bass alignment
Sealed
Inter-driver Phase response
400 Hz to 4.7k Hz
Recommended amplifier power
80W to 320W
6 ohm 4.3 ohm + -37 degrees
60 to 18k Hz
+/ -1.5 dB
90.0 dB
-3dB @75 Hz, 0.7Q roll off
Less than 45° phase difference
12 (4 in the series signal paths) 3 elements in 1 circuit Linkwitz-Riley 24 dB/oct @ 2.4 kHz Custom 6dB-24 dB/oct transitional filter
So based on that, those drivers are more sensitive than the SCSs, since the SCSs are listed as 84.5dB and that is quite a big jump of nearly 50% in output. I don't see it mentioned, how big is your room? With a -3dB of 75Hz, I would cross them a bit higher as well. If you have 90Hz, that would be good, but if you only have 80 or 100, maybe try 100. What is the x-over set to right now?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
the speakers I am using are in my signature, the SVS S series with bipole rear surrounds. I would post individual specs later tonight, currently posting from cell phone. I will also switch to 8 ohm mode and try it out.
The trouble is, when I googled what you have in your signature, they show up as 8 ohms nominal but in your opening post you said you had 4 ohm speakers.

http://www.svsound.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=25&category_id=12&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=11

Nominal impedance is loosely defined, apparently there is a Europen standard (forgot the number) that says it is the impedance at around 1 kHz. So yes, most speakers rated 8 ohms nominal will dip down lower than that at certain bands but that is typically not the same as one that is rated for 4 ohms nominal. Manufacturers such as Onkyo certainly knows that and therefore when they rate their AVR (mid range to flag ship models) for 8 ohms they already allow for those ineviable dips. That's why lab measurements conducted by HTM, HCC, S&V consistenly show such AVRs would put out much more power into 4 ohms but they won't do it simultaneously into all 7 channels on a continuous basis. That does not mean everyone needs to rush out to buy external amps. If that's the case why do we even have such a thing as AVR? There are people who will exaggerate this for various reasons, one being to error on the safe side when giving advice. I mean, it is easy to spend someone's else money.

In your case, I don't think I am the only one who will tell you the 876 happens to be one that does not have weak amp section (in relative term). SVS is first and foremost a speaker manufacturer so they may not necessarily be familiar with your particular Onkyo model, hence their 'cryptic' reply, i.e., if in doubt go get an amp. Well anyone can tell you that and that will be a safe bet.

They did suggest may be you should ask Onkyo. If you do, I will bet Onkyo will tell you the 876 can handle your speakers unless you have a very large room etc etc.... They may advice you to leave it in the 4 ohm setting for liability (UL/CSA/ESA) reasons. That will be fine too just that you have to turn it up to -10 instead of -13 for the SPL you like to enjoy. Even at -10, you should have enough headroom for most music and HT contents but if you can leave it at -13 or lower that it is better. I remember seeing on Denon's website FAQ section that they say there AVRs can drive 4 ohm (again, nominal) speakers even though their specs do not say that except for the AVR-4311 that is officially specified as 4 ohms capable.

I think my next step will be actually setting the db level with a meter instead of depending on Audysee.
You can easily check to see if Audyssey has trim the level of your L/R/C down to balance with the surround channels but it is definitely a good idea to use a SPL meter to find out what level you are listening to when the volume is set to -10 (set to 4 ohms), or -13 (predicted) when you set it to 8 ohms. Please let us know your findings.
 
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