Clarification on Bi-amping

[dinocu37]

I'm new to the forum, but have read a multitude of posts on the topics of Bi-wiring and Bi-amping.

I have come to the conclusion that bi wiring doesn't really make any sense as long as your using a sufficient connection, but must admit I try it again just to make sure I can't convince myself of an improvement.

Also, I am convinced that bi-amping from a AVR with a full range signal to a speaker with a passive crossover dosen't make much sense either.

BUT, this is wear I need some clarification. I have an Onkyo HT RC-360. I know it's not a $2,000 AVR, but it is 7.1 and in the manual it talks of bi-amping using the 6th and 7th channel just like all the other ARVs. The manual kind of leads me to believe that there may be crossover action going on in the AVR before the signal is sent to the speaker. If this is true, would there infact be some value if you are sending less of a frequency range for the speakers internal passive crossover to filter out?

Thanks for any input or knowledge.

 

[jonnythan]

No, the receiver does no special crossover when being used for bi-amping. It couldn't, because the receiver does not know anything about the crossover network in the speaker.

Even when bi-amped, the low-pass and high-pass portions of the crossover network still filter the signal coming into the speaker and going to the woofer and tweeter respectively. Unless the receiver has some way of knowing what the crossover frequency is, and the slope of said frequency, etc, then it couldn't possibly properly tailor the signal.

When bi-amping, the receiver sends the same signal through both the Front L/R jacks and the Surr Back jacks.

 

[lsiberian]

Trying to convince yourself doesn't change the facts. After all my wife still swears she's right, but the truth is she's not.

What you propose is nothing more than a marketing ploy. You aren't adding any more power. Bi-amping is for the speaker builder not for the average dino.

 

[jonnythan]

Well bi-amping with a decent AVR should get a bit more power to your front speakers.... whether it's enough to make any audible difference, or whether it will sacrifice some power to the other speakers, is another question.

 

[j_garcia]

When bi-amping, the receiver sends the same signal through both the Front L/R jacks and the Surr Back jacks.

This. Both portions of the speaker will see the same signal and the passive crossover will be handling the distribution whether the crossover is enabled or not. Biamping with a receiver is still limiting available power because all channels are tied to the same power supply, so it is a bit misleading. The smaller the power supply, the less likely there will be any benefit doing this, and I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say there aren't many receivers that are stout enough to really do this.

 

[avnetguy]

Unless the receiver has some way of knowing what the crossover frequency is, and the slope of said frequency, etc, then it couldn't possibly properly tailor the signal.

Just to further explore this, what if you manually adjusted the AVR's PEQ settings specific to each output amp to match the crossover?

Steve

 

[j_garcia]

Just to further explore this, what if you manually adjusted the AVR's PEQ settings specific to each output amp to match the crossover?

Steve

That would be the idea behind active biamping, but a receiver's PEQ likely doesn't have enough adjustment to properly match the passive.

 

[dinocu37]

Thanks for the knowledge. I was under the impression that by having the choice of a "large" or "small" speaker, the AVR was using an internal crossover and therefore sending frequencies closer to that the of the speakers crossover. Figured that it might reduce the stress on the crossover and produce some sort of improvement in sound quality.

Theoretically, if that was happening do you think it would make a difference, being that the crossover had less work to do, reducing heat, etc. Or does the passive crossover care less about what frequencies are thrown at it.

It makes me so mad that respected manufactures are creating products with features that are useless. It must kill the people engineering this stuff knowing it has no practical function.

Manufactures should have a section on their websites that goes into the ideas/methods behind the engineering of their products. So they can be accountable for these pointless features

 

[j_garcia]

They create products with features like that because if one does it, they all have to do it because people comparison shop and a feature they don't have is a negative. Whether or not that feature is useful isn't as important to them as selling units.

Many receivers these days allow you to adjust the x-over frequency to better suit a specific speaker. YES, limiting the sound sent to a given set of speakers by using a higher x-over will give you more headroom on the receiver because you aren't driving the speakers as hard. In order to no have a gap in sound though, the sub has to pick up that work. Lower frequencies tend to take more power to reproduce, and the benefit of having the sub do it is that your sub has its own amp for the heavy lifting

 

[jonnythan]

Bi-amping as a receiver function is basically trivial to implement. You just send the same signal through the SB amp section that you send through the Front section. Literally copying the bitstream. That's it, done.

 

[lsiberian]

They create products with features like that because if one does it, they all have to do it because people comparison shop and a feature they don't have is a negative. Whether or not that feature is useful isn't as important to them as selling units.

Many receivers these days allow you to adjust the x-over frequency to better suit a specific speaker. YES, limiting the sound sent to a given set of speakers by using a higher x-over will give you more headroom on the receiver because you aren't driving the speakers as hard. In order to no have a gap in sound though, the sub has to pick up that work. Lower frequencies tend to take more power to reproduce, and the benefit of having the sub do it is that your sub has its own amp for the heavy lifting

Raising a crossover frequency does generally improves woofer performance because it reduces the movement of the cone allowing for less distortion. Of course if you have a horn sub all bets are off.

 

[avnetguy]

That would be the idea behind active biamping, but a receiver's PEQ likely doesn't have enough adjustment to properly match the passive.

Sorry, didn't mean it as to eliminate the existing speaker crossover but work in conjuction with it. Definitely agree that AVRs PEQs are not designed with enough setting adjustments to taking the job over but would there be any gain seen is assisting it?

Steve

 

[j_garcia]

Sorry, didn't mean it as to eliminate the existing speaker crossover but work in conjuction with it. Definitely agree that AVRs PEQs are not designed with enough setting adjustments to taking the job over but would there be any gain seen is assisting it?

I kinda figured that wasn't where you were going with that, but I am not sure if that would work. Seems like it might, but not sure if it would yield a noticeable improvement or not.

 

[avnetguy]

I kinda figured that wasn't where you were going with that, but I am not sure if that would work. Seems like it might, but not sure if it would yield a noticeable improvement or not.

In theory it would stop those "unwanted" frequencies from going to the main amps and hitting the crossover but would it make a difference ... I doubt it as well.

It sure would be nice if they added into the new AVRs a crossover filter setting specifically for this purpose then there would be a potential for a useful bi-amp. Of course, speaker makers would need to provide a crossover bypass post for connecting that up as well. As an added bonus it would work if you're using external amps. Ahh, to dream of what could be done.

Steve

 

[j_garcia]

All we need is a x-over bypass switch that routes the wiring direct to the drivers, and maybe something to quickly, visually indicate what they are set to