New speakers, music mainly: Snell, Jamo, Boston Acoustics, Aperion?

V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
Hey thanks! I had forgotten all about that one. You posted it before I think.

It looks like it has everything: good power, pre-amp outputs, sub, AM/FM with ample presets, simple, and it looks nice too. It doesn't have Audyssey, but I really don't think that's a deal-killer, esp. with only 2 speakers.

Does HK have a good reputation for quality? This model certainly gets very good reviews. You think it will drive the Snell/BA fine?

I just looked and found it for sale through Amazon Italy and Euronics (kind of A4L in Italy), who are a HK AD in Italy. Good prices too. This mught be the way to go.
Thanks again!
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Does HK have a good reputation for quality? This model certainly gets very good reviews. You think it will drive the Snell/BA fine?
Yes, no problem driving the speakers - they like power.

Harman customer service is real good - I do not know of
any real issues with the 3490.
 
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V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
Yes, no problem driving the speakers - they like power.

Harman customer service is real good - I do not know of
any real issues with the 3490.
Good, thanks.
Would there be any reason to consider the Onkyo TX NR807 that BoredSysAdmin posted on page 1 (135W) if I could find in Italy?

Or just stay with the HK? This one seems very good.

I have to go pick up my brother at the airport. Thanks a lot for all your help and have a great Thanksgiving.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Good, thanks.
Would there be any reason to consider the Onkyo TX NR807 that BoredSysAdmin posted on page 1 (135W) if I could find in Italy?

Or just stay with the HK? This one seems very good.
The final decision is up to you - it depends on your general needs.
Enjoy the holiday!
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
Over the Thanksgiving weekend I decided to take a break from my search and try to clear my head. I also decided it was important to go to some better stores, listen to some speakers, etc.

I also decided not to buy the used Snells.

First I went to a Magnolia Audio, which was not a good experience. A very disengaged salesman first said, "You need to double your budget to $2,000 minimum." He played some Monitor Audio RX8 towers connected to an Arcam Solo Mini, but these were out in the open area, and between the TVs, people talking, etc., it wasn't easy to hear if these were good. I asked for other suggestions, within my budget, and the guy just faded out...so I left.

Then I went to an Audio Video City the next day. This was a better experience. The salesman was much more helpful, and I listened to Monitor Audio BX2 ($489) and RX1 ($675) bookshelf speakers and NHT Classic Three (which AccuDefTechGuy suggested in this thread) ($800). These were connected to a Denon receiver, but I didn't write down the model number since the salesman said to definitely buy the receiver in Italy. I actually liked the sound of all these speakers, probably the NHT the best.

The problem is we're not sure we can afford the NHT Three. Audio Advisor has the NHT Classic Two demos for $525/pair, but I don't know if these are as good as the Threes. The store didn't have any Twos.

I liked the finish on all three, although I prefer a real wood veneer (NHT and RX1) over vinyl (BX2). I like the looks of the NHT the best, but that's not a driving concern. In fact, the MA were pretty elegant too, I thought.

The last store I went to was the best. There were 2 salesmen, I was the only customer, and they were both very good. One was European and confirmed I should buy the receiver in Europe. This store had by far the most expensive products of all the stores I have visited (including these amazing looking turntables by Clearaudio and Transrotor. Really incredible looking things. This store was definitely the most professional.

They really listened to me and had only two solutions to offer (only one, really). I listened to some PSB Image B6 ($600) and some Tannoy Revolution ($1000) speakers, both connected to a NAD 326 integrated amp and NAD CD player. These speakers both sounded fantastic, to me better than the Monitor Audio or NHT (but I'm not sure, because this store also had the best listening environment). I thought the Tannoys sounded really good, but those are too expensive. They also have PSB Imagine B speakers ($1000), but they were at the other store so I didn't hear them.

They actually printed out a proposal and can sell me the PSB Image B6, with 2 7' Kimber Kable 8 PR cables with Nordost Z plugs, already terminated, for $600, tax included.

They could do the same with the Tannoy Revolution or PSB Imagine B, but at $1,000 all-in.

They said the Kimber Kables are better than Monoprice (I had mentioned that I thought I would make my own) and really recommended them. They said that they thought for my budget and desires the PSB B6 package is a very good deal.

They also highly recommended the NAD receiver (or separate tuner + amp) but those are quite expensive in Italy. They did say they thought the Marantz SR4023 receiver would be fine with the Image B6, but that if I were to buy speakers like the Tannoy Revolution or PSB Imagine B, I would be better served by going with NAD or Arcam (they sell both as well as Marantz). They did say they thought the Arcam Solo Mini rec at Magnolia was not a good rec; that the Arcam FMJ series was the better choice.

But at that point they also said, "Look, you have your budget, and the Tannoy/Imagine are going to require also a more expensive amp/receiver to really use them at their best, so we really recommend the Image B6 and the NAD receiver if you can swing it, the Marantz if you can't. We're confidenjt in this recommendation." They weren't trying to jam a $2,000 set-up at me like the guy at Magnolia, and I respect that.

So, to sum up, I've probably driven you all crazy with my questions, but I have tried to learn for myself and do the research/listening.

Part of me thought that I shouldn't waste anyone's time with a long post and simply buy the PSB Image B6; part of me thought that I would appreciate some reaction and feedback before doing that.

Within my budget, there are the PSB Image B6, the Boston Acoustics VS260, the Monitor Audio RX1 (or BX2), maybe the NHT Classic Two.
Of these I have heard the PSB and Monitor Audio, and preferred the PSB. Both lines also have very good reviews online.

The issue I have with BA VS260 is I can't hear them, they have 0 reviews or presence online (which baffles me), and only zieglj01 here has recommended them. They intrigue me a lot, but if there were other reviews or other people also recommending them, I would feel more confident in buying them blind. They just feel like real mystery speakers to me, and I don't get it.

The other speakers that I have not heard (but get great reviews and the company intrigues me) in my budget are the Ascend CMT-340 SE.

A bit over our budget are the NHT Classic Three. The Tannoy Revolution/PSB Imagine are just too much right now. But at $800 for the NHT Three, I might be inclined to buy the Acend Sierra-1 at $50 more, which do get rave comments/reviews all over the place and really appeal to me the more I read.

I apologize for the very lengthy post. If you have been patient enough to read this far, any advice or comment would certainly be greatly appreciated.
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
Not saying the PSB Image B6 isn't a good choice... I like their Image B4 quite a bit, so I'm sure the B6 is a good speaker...

But my opinion is that the deal they offered isn't much of a deal at all. The B6 retail for $549, so the extra your paying covers tax and some speaker cables/banana plugs the dealer threw in to sweeten the deal.

Just my opinion - but I think exotic speaker wire is a waste, and I'd guess the markup is riduculous.

I'd much rather save on the speakers... and get wire elsewhere. If I wanted something beyond basic speaker wire, I'd buy some Belden wire and some banana plugs from Blue Jeans cable, and terminate the wire myself. I might even add a techflex to add a visual hi-end touch.

If that dealer won't work with you on pricing of the B6... check Saturday Audio. Good place to deal with, and they've worked with me in the past on pricing for PSB speakers.
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
Not saying the PSB Image B6 isn't a good choice... I like their Image B4 quite a bit, so I'm sure the B6 is a good speaker...

But my opinion is that the deal they offered isn't much of a deal at all. The B6 retail for $549, so the extra your paying covers tax and some speaker cables/banana plugs the dealer threw in to sweeten the deal.

Just my opinion - but I think exotic speaker wire is a waste, and I'd guess the markup is riduculous.

I'd much rather save on the speakers... and get wire elsewhere. If I wanted something beyond basic speaker wire, I'd buy some Belden wire and some banana plugs from Blue Jeans cable, and terminate the wire myself. I might even add a techflex to add a visual hi-end touch.

If that dealer won't work with you on pricing of the B6... check Saturday Audio. Good place to deal with, and they've worked with me in the past on pricing for PSB speakers.
Yes, I was just realizing that exact thing myself. I was now looking online and the B6 sells everywhere for $550, the same price as on their propsal, so you are completely correct. Plus, they listed a "termination fee" of $25, when in fact the cables were already complete, in a bag. In fact, on the proposal it says **demo wire only**, which I guess means the cables were used in the store.

I know nothing about cables/making them. but if I could do that and save money i certainly would. They were really touting these Kimber, but what do I know?

Essentially it looks like they are selling the speakers at list, taking $15 off the tax, and throwing in some demo cables which sure didn't cost them the $145 total as listed on the proposal.

Hmmmm....

I just checked Saturday Audio, thanks.
PSB GB-1 new for $500/pr., new w/warranty.
PSB Image B6 for $439/pr., refurb w/warranty.
PSB Imagine B for $879/pr., refurb w/warranty.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, I was just realizing that exact thing myself. I was now looking online and the B6 sells everywhere for $550, the same price as on their propsal, so you are completely correct. Plus, they listed a "termination fee" of $25, when in fact the cables were already complete, in a bag. In fact, on the proposal it says **demo wire only**, which I guess means the cables were used in the store.

I know nothing about cables/making them. but if I could do that and save money i certainly would. They were really touting these Kimber, but what do I know?

Essentially it looks like they are selling the speakers at list, taking $15 off the tax, and throwing in some demo cables which sure didn't cost them the $145 total as listed on the proposal.

Hmmmm....

I just checked Saturday Audio, thanks.
PSB GB-1 new for $500/pr., new w/warranty.
PSB Image B6 for $439/pr., refurb w/warranty.
PSB Imagine B for $879/pr., refurb w/warranty.
If you like the Tannoy, there is a dealer in Milan. There is a pro dealer in Venice and he also might be able to supply them.

The Bookshelf Revolution DC 4 is 300 Euro and the floor standing DC4T is 530 Euro.

If you are thinking of buying a European speaker, it will be much cheaper in Europe. Tannoy gear is very good by the way and always has been.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
with 2 7' Kimber Kable 8 PR cables with Nordost Z plugs, already terminated, for $600, tax included.

They said the Kimber Kables are better than Monoprice (I had mentioned that I thought I would make my own) and really recommended them. They said that they thought for my budget and desires the PSB B6 package is a very good deal.
It's not true. Neither is the need for separates. I recommend a receiver with pre-outs and an 3 channel external amp if you need it. You will get a better feature set that way and you can power your surrounds off the receiver. You'd be better off putting as much money as you can in the fronts and sub and cheaping out on cables, receivers and amps.
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
If you like the Tannoy, there is a dealer in Milan. There is a pro dealer in Venice and he also might be able to supply them.

The Bookshelf Revolution DC 4 is 300 Euro and the floor standing DC4T is 530 Euro.

If you are thinking of buying a European speaker, it will be much cheaper in Europe. Tannoy gear is very good by the way and always has been.
Thanks for those links. The Tannoy I listened to was the Revolution DC6 (larger woofer than the DC4) and it did sound very good. Strangely, though, looking now at those links and Google Italy, the DC6 looks very hard to find whereas the DC4 are sold in many places.

I really don't know what to do anymore; this all just gets more confusing to me.I was hoping to find good speakers here, for a good price (mint used would even be better) in order to avoid VAT, etc., since the receivers all seem to be more expensive in Italy. But now I don't know; I can't find even a minimal consensus on anything, either online or in real stores, so perhaps I should just wait and go to stores in Italy with my wife, and we pick something together. This research is truly exhausting and often demoralizing.
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
It's not true. Neither is the need for separates. I recommend a receiver with pre-outs and an 3 channel external amp if you need it. You will get a better feature set that way and you can power your surrounds off the receiver. You'd be better off putting as much money as you can in the fronts and sub and cheaping out on cables, receivers and amps.
I don't really understand this.
I understand that "standard" (whatever those are) cables may be just fine, but I don't understand "Neither is the need for separates." followed by "I recommend a receiver with pre-outs and a 3-channel external amp if you need it."
Aren't those separates?
Why would we need a 3-channel amp?
What surrounds?
The intent now is just to have 2 speakers, and possibly a sub.
Can't those be powered by the receiver speaker and sub outs?
Perhaps I'm not understanding something....
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for those links. The Tannoy I listened to was the Revolution DC6 (larger woofer than the DC4) and it did sound very good. Strangely, though, looking now at those links and Google Italy, the DC6 looks very hard to find whereas the DC4 are sold in many places.

I really don't know what to do anymore; this all just gets more confusing to me.I was hoping to find good speakers here, for a good price (mint used would even be better) in order to avoid VAT, etc., since the receivers all seem to be more expensive in Italy. But now I don't know; I can't find even a minimal consensus on anything, either online or in real stores, so perhaps I should just wait and go to stores in Italy with my wife, and we pick something together. This research is truly exhausting and often demoralizing.
The DC 6 is still available. I bet if you want it they can get it for you in Italy.

I think you should leave your speaker selection until you get to Italy.

Italy is a very civilized country and they don't like the rackets so prevalent here. The Italians also love the human voice.

In Italy you will have a much better choice in the class of speaker that will meet your wife's needs. It is just about impossible to find a nasty racket on any radio station in Italy.

When I was last in Italy, I was in Bologna a couple of days. There was a nice elderly gentleman who had a CD shop on the square opposite the cathedral. He store was packed with gorgeous CDs, that I could tell had been selected with great care.

I told the gentleman I could not find a CD I would not like to own.

He replied: - "It only gives me pleasure to sell beautiful music."
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
But now I don't know; I can't find even a minimal consensus on anything, either online or in real stores, so perhaps I should just wait and go to stores in Italy with my wife, and we pick something together. This research is truly exhausting and often demoralizing.
Now your circle is starting to get bigger.
Do not get caught up in the speaker wire craze - I have a suitcase of
old expensive speaker wire laughing at me - everytime that I open the
closet door.
Just get a receiver with pre-outs, for future reference. A good way to
start, is 2.1 or 2.0 to begin with. Then grow from there, if you so desire
after you get settled. I believe you said, that this is mainly for music to
begin with.
Slow down!
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
The DC 6 is still available. I bet if you want it they can get it for you in Italy.

I think you should leave your speaker selection until you get to Italy.

Italy is a very civilized country and they don't like the rackets so prevalent here. The Italians also love the human voice.

In Italy you will have a much better choice in the class of speaker that will meet your wife's needs. It is just about impossible to find a nasty racket on any radio station in Italy.

When I was last in Italy, I was in Bologna a couple of days. There was a nice elderly gentleman who had a CD shop on the square opposite the cathedral. He store was packed with gorgeous CDs, that I could tell had been selected with great care.

I told the gentleman I could not find a CD I would not like to own.

He replied: - "It only gives me pleasure to sell beautiful music."
Yes, I know, thanks. I am Italian.

But whether I buy the speakers here or there the issue is I don't even know what to look for anymore. Every store, every poster, give a different recommendation and that will likely not change in Italy. I was hoping to at least settle on a speaker here, in order to have them and then know which receiver/sub might be the most compatible.

That store was opposite San Petronio then, beautiful. I love Bologna; it may be the most liveable city in Italy.
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
Now your circle is starting to get bigger.
Do not get caught up in the speaker wire craze - I have a suitcase of
old expensive speaker wire laughing at me - everytime that I open the
closet door.
Just get a receiver with pre-outs, for future reference. A good way to
start, is 2.1 or 2.0 to begin with. Then grow from there, if you so desire
after you get settled. I believe you said, that this is mainly for music to
begin with.
Slow down!
Slow down? Heck, I would like to STOP! By that I mean decide, commit to something good, move on with life.

Yes, I agree with you: rec w/pre-outs; 2.0 first; then 2.1; probably stop there and be fine with that. And that seems like a simple list. And yet....

I just feel more lost now, though. It seems that with that simple a list of objectives it would be easy enough to find some kind of consensus on some recommendations. It literally astounds me that, even with those criteria, every single store, every poster, every online review, etc. all offer different "recommendations". It's mind-boggling to a novice like me.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I just feel more lost now, though. It seems that with that simple a list of objectives it would be easy enough to find some kind of consensus on some recommendations. It literally astounds me that, even with those criteria, every single store, every poster, every online review, etc. all offer different "recommendations". It's mind-boggling to a novice like me.
We all have our preferences - such is life. You were so close on a decision.
There are a lot of speakers out there - It will not take much to beat your
old system. Life is short - sometimes you just have to make a decision. If
you can not - then hold off, till you move out of the U S.
You were given some good options to choose from - and they were high
quality. For a novice - listen to what you can - however, do not get caught
up with salesmen, trying to make a commission.
 
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V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
We all have our preferences - such is life. You were so close on a decision.
There are a lot of speakers out there - It will not take much to beat your
old system. Life is short - sometimes you just have to make a decision. If
you can not - then hold off, till you move out of the U S.
You were given some good options to choose from - and they were high
quality. For a novice - listen to what you can - however, do not get caught
up with salesmen, trying to make a commission.
Yeah, I know. I simply wish I had more data and experience by which to make a decision, on the speakers. On the other hand, you are correct: anything suggested by all of you will be better than what we have. So, thanks for all the advice.

Interestingly, I was curious so I googled "110v/220v stereo receivers" and found some stores that sell primarily to US military personnel, etc. moving overseas. Mainly Denon and Yamaha, some Pioneer. Some are 220v/50Hz only; others are actually 110v/60Hz-220v/50Hz switchable. Either type would be fine for us, so that seems like good news.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, I know. I simply wish I had more data and experience by which to make a decision, on the speakers. On the other hand, you are correct: anything suggested by all of you will be better than what we have. So, thanks for all the advice.

Interestingly, I was curious so I googled "110v/220v stereo receivers" and found some stores that sell primarily to US military personnel, etc. moving overseas. Mainly Denon and Yamaha, some Pioneer. Some are 220v/50Hz only; others are actually 110v/60Hz-220v/50Hz switchable. Either type would be fine for us, so that seems like good news.
Those receivers are for the Far East. Europe is 240 volts single phase with one live and a neutral. The far East is 220 volts and no neutral, with the the 220 volts between the two AC wires. Also the Far east has the same FM de emphasis as the US and Europe does not.

My advice still stands, get a receiver designed for Europe.

Make sure you take you wife shopping with lots of opera arias to demo. She likely will be the most discerning listener.
 
V

venessian

Audioholic Intern
Those receivers are for the Far East. Europe is 240 volts single phase with one live and a neutral. The far East is 220 volts and no neutral, with the the 220 volts between the two AC wires. Also the Far east has the same FM de emphasis as the US and Europe does not.

My advice still stands, get a receiver designed for Europe.

Make sure you take you wife shopping with lots of opera arias to demo. She likely will be the most discerning listener.
Really?
A lot of them specify 220-240.

For instance, this one specifies "220-240 volts 50 Hertz AV Receiver"; "Graphical User Interface (GUI) - Language Support: English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Swedish"; "Supported TV standards: PAL, NTSC"; "AC outlets (switched): 1"; etc.

It seems this is made for use in Europe, but maybe I'm missing something.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Really?
A lot of them specify 220-240.

For instance, this one specifies "220-240 volts 50 Hertz AV Receiver"; "Graphical User Interface (GUI) - Language Support: English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Swedish"; "Supported TV standards: PAL, NTSC"; "AC outlets (switched): 1"; etc.

It seems this is made for use in Europe, but maybe I'm missing something.
That receiver may be a European model. You need to check whether the FM de emphasis is for Europe or the US. Also you need to find out if the digital radio is IBOC or DAB. It has to be DAB to work in Europe at all, they have no IBOC. Digital radio is far ahead in Europe compared to the US and their system is much better.
 
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