Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[DenPureSound]

I would like to post some pics but don't know how. I read the how to, but there is no pictures & albums link that I can find, in my control panel. ???

Just upload your pics to something like photobucket, etc. a site that will give you a little space for your pics for free, then use that Image URL address when you post in AH forum.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your Upgradis will kick in again soon, and then we will have to Intervene!!

You heard it here first. Must be the pressure from your other half after seeing all those Big Towers, and cute sweet little Ref's there all lined up, like Penguins on an Iceberg.

The question is not when, but what ones go first?

After selling my DefTech BP7000 & BP7001, I don't want to sell another speaker. I get attached to them. I associate them with certain things in life. Each speaker tells a different story in life.

If I ever buy more speakers, they must be extremely accurate speakers.

 

[cpp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
I was exaggerating Building a nice house these days is in the territory of around 600k+
You better come South across that Border, where you can get a Really Nice home for around $250K !!

Also, it is a shade Warmer, and we have Engr. jobs for you as well. )


got that right, I'm a retired engineer and the house is on a rather nice lake of course it cost alot more than $250k but you pay for lake front, PS and it's warmer to, very little snow or ice.


a

I don't want to sell another speaker. I get attached to them.

you know you could put those Salons to good use and use them as support for a load bearing wall

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You better come South across that Border, where you can get a Really Nice home for around $250K !!

Also, it is a shade Warmer, and we have Engr. jobs for you as well. )

What's the process for that anyway?

Immigrations?

Wouldn't he need a degree in the US to work in the US?

 

[cpp]

What's the process for that anyway?

Immigrations?

Wouldn't he need a degree in the US to work in the US

Have his shots

could be, he would be classified as an alien

Any out of state degree would work, somewhere down here. I hear Walmart is hiring

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hear Walmart is hiring

You know I was at Walmart when I was ordering my KEF 201/2 on the phone.

 

[DenPureSound]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
I was exaggerating Building a nice house these days is in the territory of around 600k+
You better come South across that Border, where you can get a Really Nice home for around $250K !!

Also, it is a shade Warmer, and we have Engr. jobs for you as well. )


got that right, I'm a retired engineer and the house is on a rather nice lake of course it cost alot more than $250k but you pay for lake front, PS and it's warmer to, very little snow or ice.


a you know you could put those Salons to good use and use them as support for a load bearing wall

Been on the lake w/ the house already.. been there done that, loud boat engines, and way to many Mosquitos for us, and don't want boats at my Front Door, either. Now at 100dB the fishermen can relax, since we are far away.

The lake is at the end of the street, and far fewer bugs that way, plus house is a lot more for a lot less $, and also an Engr. that retired at 52yrs. of youth just to tout my Klipsch Horns, or were they KEF Reference or Phil 3's, hahaha...

 

[DenPureSound]

You know I was at Walmart when I was ordering my KEF 201/2 on the phone.

Remember, I was the Greeter at the door, showing you where your KEF Isle was located at, but you kept asking where the Philharmonic Audio Isle was located?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hmmmm. Mine don't. That still doesn't seem right. In any event, I'm switching to a slightly thicker pad.

How long will these pads last?

Should we get some extra pads just in case?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So how do they sound you say? I find there is more inner detail with better imaging with this set up. This is just my early first impressions, more critical listening to follow. These decoupling devices seem to be a better choice over the foam pad which comes with the speakers. Is the foam bad? No, not at all. It is just a little better with the big fat dots. The speaker is just as stable with this set up as well. The cost for 16 dots was $164.97 shipped. I'll try and get some photos posted up.

So again the main reason you got these was because the original foam pad was not holding the top cabinet evenly?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

So again the main reason you got these was because the original foam pad was not holding the top cabinet evenly?

The stock pad will hold the speakers evenly if the back clears the banana plugs. But it's proving too tight a tolerance, so I'm switching to a slightly thicker (and more expensive) isloation pad. Blackhole 5 Enclosure Damping

 

[smwick]

So again the main reason you got these was because the original foam pad was not holding the top cabinet evenly?

That was only part of it. I spoke with Steve Herbelin from Herbies Audio Lab, and he recommended I try his db-nuetralizers. He believes this is the best material for decoupling. It was designed specifically for that use. As I have mentioned, it has made some nice improvements in my system. He mentioned that BlackHole is better suited for air born vibrations with in a cabinet. As far as the material Dennis is using, I think it works fine. He has mentioned that he is now using an up graded material (blackhole 5) which is thicker as well, so there should be no issues with the plugs touching the upper module.

 

[GranteedEV]

I like Canada thank ya very much. If I moved anywhere outside this country, it would be Tokyo or Paris <3

How long will these pads last?

Should we get some extra pads just in case?

Taken out of context... this made me lol.

 

[GranteedEV]

He mentioned that BlackHole is better suited for air born vibrations with in a cabinet.

Not sure about that... it sounds like misinformation though i can't say conclusively. The goal of these dampers is to turn vibrations into heat. Generally when constrain layer damping a cabinet, you build a thin layer box, use about 1.5" of vibration damping on the outside, and then build a box on the outside of that, right? So the suggestion that it's to damp 'airborn' vibrations seems off to me. Generally for something in contact with air, you want a sound absorption material like 4" Ultratouch rather than a viscoelastic material like black hole.

Then again, I dunno.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Not sure about that... it sounds like misinformation though i can't say conclusively. The goal of these dampers is to turn vibrations into heat. Generally when constrain layer damping a cabinet, you build a thin layer box, use about 1.5" of vibration damping on the outside, and then build a box on the outside of that, right? So the suggestion that it's to damp 'airborn' vibrations seems off to me. Generally for something in contact with air, you want a sound absorption material like 4" Ultratouch rather than a viscoelastic material like black hole.

Then again, I dunno.

I'm just going on personal experience using Black Hole in other box-on-box constructions. It's not difficult to test. You plop two of the speakers next to each other, one with nothing between the boxes and one with Black Hole. Then you put your left hand on the nude boxes, and the right on the treated. You can feel a big difference. It even works if you switch hands. Of couse, other approches might work as well or even better. I'm not aware of any that I could afford to offer as a standard feature, however.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm just going on personal experience using Black Hole in other box-on-box constructions. It's not difficult to test. You plop two of the speakers next to each other, one with nothing between the boxes and one with Black Hole. Then you put your left hand on the nude boxes, and the right on the treated. You can feel a big difference. It even works if you switch hands. Of couse, other approches might work as well or even better. I'm not aware of any that I could afford to offer as a standard feature, however.

sounds like the black hole is perfectly well and effective. like I said, sounds like misinformation that you can't squish it between two layers; when that's exactly what people use it for.

An alternative you might want still to mess around with, is the Latex, Evlon, or High Resiliance foam i mentioned earlier for decoupling from floor. Those should definitely maintain their compliance over extended periods of time, while decoupling effectively.

 

[smwick]

Not sure about that... it sounds like misinformation though i can't say conclusively. The goal of these dampers is to turn vibrations into heat. Generally when constrain layer damping a cabinet, you build a thin layer box, use about 1.5" of vibration damping on the outside, and then build a box on the outside of that, right? So the suggestion that it's to damp 'airborn' vibrations seems off to me. Generally for something in contact with air, you want a sound absorption material like 4" Ultratouch rather than a viscoelastic material like black hole.

Then again, I dunno.

This is not my area of expertise, so I can only go on the info provided. But I can tell you there is an improvement when using the dots in my system, but maybe the next person may find no improvement at all. Don't get me wrong the material that Dennis provides works just fine. I changed it out for two reasons; first, the upper module did not sit level on the supplied foam. It was too soft and compressed more in the front end of the speaker. Secondly, I wanted to try a material designed for decoupling.

Here is some info on this material, for what ever it may be worth.
What it is:
dBNeutralizer(tm) is a proprietary composite of platinum-cured silicones with barium sulfate and silica fillers.
Big Fat Dot blocks transfer of mechanical sound energy by the following amounts (in compliance with ASTM E 90 Test Standards):
Freq: Transmission loss, dB:
<20 6 ~ 18
20 16
40 19
50 22
100 23
150 20
250 24
300 23
400 26
500 27
650 29
800 31
1000 33
1250 36
1600 37
2000 39
2500 41
3200 43
4000 44
5000 43
>5000 ≥43

 

[DenPureSound]

Not sure about that... it sounds like misinformation though i can't say conclusively. The goal of these dampers is to turn vibrations into heat. Generally when constrain layer damping a cabinet, you build a thin layer box, use about 1.5" of vibration damping on the outside, and then build a box on the outside of that, right? So the suggestion that it's to damp 'airborn' vibrations seems off to me. Generally for something in contact with air, you want a sound absorption material like 4" Ultratouch rather than a viscoelastic material like black hole.

Then again, I dunno.

You want this isolation material to have a spring rate (k) to support the dead load weight (~10#'s) of the upper encl. w/ some degree of compression of the material, and it should also have a damping constant shunted around the spring to ideally critically dampen out all displacements that are occuring on the top encl. imposed by the forcing frequencies of the woofer causing displacements of the lower encl.

The most important parameter here is the Damping Constant of the Material to facilitate Critical Damping, in so that there is no Overshoot and the shortest time constant is ideal. This can be all tested but you would need some accelerometers, strip chart recorder, and a freq. generator.

I looked up the Blackhole 5 material, but I could not find any data supporting the Spring Rate, Damping Constant, Memory, etc. For material this expensive they should have some Engr. Test data supporting the aforementioned parameters.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Before we get too caught up in the physics of the pad, please remember that in your standard tower 3-way, there is no isolation whatever between the woofer compartment and the midrange-tweeter, other than bracing, which simply shifts the frequency of the vibration. So I can assure you Black Hole is a big improvement over that.

 

[DenPureSound]

Before we get too caught up in the physics of the pad, please remember that in your standard tower 3-way, there is no isolation whatever between the woofer compartment and the midrange-tweeter, other than bracing, which simply shifts the frequency of the vibration. So I can assure you Black Hole is a big improvement over that.

I totally agree, although many 3-Way designs or 2-Way will use another 3/4"-1" thick piece of Plywood or Hardwood as the Baffle to mount the drivers to. This certainly stiffens up the front of the enclosure to minimize any coupling of vibration from one driver to the others.

Do the Phil 3's have this extra stiff Baffle added to the front 3/4" MDF of the enclosures?

Now, with these types of Questions I need some more "Posting Thanks"...