Paradigm S6v3/Revel F52/PSB Synchrony One

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PSB Synchrony One:
SoundStage! Measurements - PSB Synchrony One Loudspeakers (7/2008)

Paradigm S8:
[ur l=http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/]SoundStage! Measurements - Paradigm Reference Signature S8 Loudspeakers (9/2004)[/url]

Soundstage does not have the Revel F52, but has F12 measurements:
SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Concerta F12 Loudspeakers (3/2006)

Welcome to www.SoundStageAV.com
Did you look at the distortion graph of the P162? If the 362 has similar distortions in the 2 to 4k range it may explain why the violin doesn't sound smooth to me.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes...I know where to find their library. I know the site well.


But not all the speakers being discussed have measurements there. Do you see them?
You are right, not all, but 2 out of 4.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
These are my 3 finalists for my front towers. I've been able to find deals that I can get a pair on any of them for under $4k.
Are you talking about new ones with full manufacturer's warranty?

I am not sure about the Ravel but in Canada I cannot find a pair of new S6 for under 5K before tax. The Synchrony One will likely go for less.

Base on published measurements the Synchrony seems to be yield the best sound for the $, if you can get pass the fact that they are made in China. I assume the Paradigm S6s are made in Canada. If I could get a pair of new S6 V3 for under 4K they would be in my HT room by now.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The S6's are on his list, not the S8. Also, I think the S8 is v2.
S6 is on the OP's list but you asked Docks for a link in post#12. Since your quoted Dock's I assume you were interested in the models in his list that included the S8 not S6. Again, if you refer to the S6 I do not see it listed in Soundstage either. Unfortunately, it is also the S6 that I am considering as there is no way I would spend the extra dollars to get the S8 just for a little deeper bass.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Did you look at the distortion graph of the P162? If the 362 has similar distortions in the 2 to 4k range it may explain why the violin doesn't sound smooth to me.
Possible. Another question is at what point is distortion actually audible?

Also we don't know if the P362 has the same distortion as the P162, as you pointed out.

Looks this PSB also has the 2K distortion:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/speakers/psb_image_t45/


But check out the distortion on my KEF::D

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Possible. Another question is at what point is distortion actually audible?

Also we don't know if the P362 has the same distortion as the P162, as you pointed out.

Looks this PSB also has the 2K distortion:
SoundStage! Measurements - PSB Image T45 Loudspeakers (7/2006)


But check out the distortion on my KEF::D

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)
I notice how great your KEF looks and I wish I could afford a pair instead of having to settle on a pair of S6. Base on the Veritas 2.4i, my 2.3i most likely (not sure) won't be too bad either as it has the same mid/high module as the 2.4i.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/energy_veritas_v24i/

There was a little bump at 2.5K but probably not too noticeable and I do like the way the violins sound on my 2.3i vs the 362. The S8 definitely looks better so again it may be reasonable to assume the S6 that has the same mid and high drivers, would be similarly good.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Possible. Another question is at what point is distortion actually audible?

Also we don't know if the P362 has the same distortion as the P162, as you pointed out.

Looks this PSB also has the 2K distortion:
SoundStage! Measurements - PSB Image T45 Loudspeakers (7/2006)
I never noticed that distortion at all and I have these. Keep in mind that 90 or 95db is intensely loud and I never play them that loud for sustained periods of time. The T45s do really well in classical musical and I don't think I can find a new speaker in its price range that would beat them.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I never noticed that distortion at all and I have these. Keep in mind that 90 or 95db is intensely loud and I never play them that loud for sustained periods of time. The T45s do really well in classical musical and I don't think I can find a new speaker in its price range that would beat them.
I'm thinking these THD are "similar" or "relative" to the THD we see in amps. Sure, the THD are there and some are higher than others, but as you have experienced, are they truly audible?

I mean unless the THD is like 3 times what we see here, are they actually audible?

Harman International (Toole, Olive) always talks about on-axis & off-axis FR, but did they or The Audio Critic ever emphasize speakers THD?
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I'm thinking these THD are "similar" or "relative" to the THD we see in amps. Sure, the THD are there and some are higher than others, but as you have experienced, are they truly audible?
Of course THD in speakers is audible. In amps we're talking about 0.05% type THD at ultra high levels.

Distortion is most certainly audible.. in many speakers it's generally at least 1% and probably closer to 5 to 10% on dynamic transients. It's useless to measure THD+Noise though. Because of masking effects in music, we don't notice 2nd order THD or even 3rd order even though we hear it. But if it's there in the form of 4th/5th or higher order THD we not only hear it but it's noticible in one way or another.

It's all part of power compression. Look at the change in FREQUENCY RESPONSE FLATNESS at 95db of some of these speakers.

A good motor design with smart use of demodulation flat out sounds better, and of course a smart crossover design.

Looking at that zu audio graph, I saw a huge sharp THD peak near 5khz. I'm willing to bet it's much more offensive than it looks. And I'd bet that it's ringing in the time domain at that frequency.

The other thing you need to realize is the driver producing the THD.

Let's say it's 100% clean from 100hz to 3khz but at 6khz it has a resonance. Not a big deal with a 2.5khz crossover right? Well.. if the motor is distorting, that means that if the 3rd harmonic at 2khz is played through the driver, the 3rd harmonic will be played through the same driver, even if the crossover is filtering that out. So you could actually hear some metal ringing or what have you. So you need a motor that won't accidentally trigger that harmonic. These get filtered out from amps by crossovers, but not by motors themselves.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
GranteedEV

I would think that distortion is more audable in the odd order harmonics than the even order ones. A tube amp springs to mind here where a tube amp doesn't sound nearly as harsh as a SS when over driven. or amps, I thought that figure was 0.5%, not 0.05%.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It's useless to measure THD+Noise
So the THD + N done on NRC/Soundstage is useless?

Who measures speakers THD meaningfully?

So on the FR changes @ 90/95dB, a change of > 3dB is significant anywhere from 200hZ-9kHz?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm thinking these THD are "similar" or "relative" to the THD we see in amps. Sure, the THD are there and some are higher than others, but as you have experienced, are they truly audible?

I mean unless the THD is like 3 times what we see here, are they actually audible?

Harman International (Toole, Olive) always talks about on-axis & off-axis FR, but did they or The Audio Critic ever emphasize speakers THD?
I honestly think you have to take them with a grain of salt. As you said they mostly talk about on/off axis freq response that their products seem to excel in. What they said are not gospel. Distortions in speakers are much higher than what you would encounter in most decent amplifiers. We can tolerate much higher distortion in the low frequencies but at 2 to 4K we are sensitive too, even for people with hearing loss. You can do something about freq response but you can't fix distortion. KEF ref speakers always sound good to me and their extremely low distortion in the mid freq range surely has something to do with it. Of course your Ravel are as good or better in that department as well.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I would think that distortion is more audable in the odd order harmonics than the even order ones. A tube amp springs to mind here where a tube amp doesn't sound nearly as harsh as a SS when over driven. or amps, I thought that figure was 0.5%, not 0.05%.
Odd / Even order doesn't really matter. It's all about how isolated the distortion harmonic becomes from the fundamental frequency. In most 'natural tones' 2nd/3rd order harmonics tend to dominate so if a speaker is producing distortion at those frequencies, it just tends to be masked by the fact that there's a natural harmonic at the same frequency. Thus for a 1khz tone we'd probably be a lot more sensitive to a simulataneous 4khz tone than a 2khz tone - although it mostly depends on the harmonic signature of the instrument or voice.

Now 2nd order is technichally even order so i can see why you think that. but i think if 2nd order is higher than 3rd order and that is well higher than 4th order, it's generally preferable. over a 4th order HD creeping up into audibility.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I honestly think you have to take them with a grain of salt. As you said they mostly talk about on/off axis freq response that their products seem to excel in. What they said are not gospel. Distortions in speakers are much higher than what you would encounter in most decent amplifiers. We can tolerate much higher distortion in the low frequencies but at 2 to 4K we are sensitive too, even for people with hearing loss. You can do something about freq response but you can't fix distortion. KEF ref speakers always sound good to me and their extremely low distortion in the mid freq range surely has something to do with it. Of course your Ravel are as good or better in that department as well.
I think these THD measurements are useful because it indicates where the speaker begins to fall appart when being pushed. I realize 90 and 95db is very loud indeed and most of us won't push our speakers there for sustained periods of time. Maybe they should meausre the THD at a lower output say around 80 and 85 db. Maybe most speakers eaily clear that hurdle. I'm not sure. But based on the Soundstage graphs (which appear to be the best sort of measurements out there in teh industry save maybe stereophile magazine), I would choose the PSB over the digms beucae they exhibit no distortion at that critical 2k-4k frequency area.
 
B

Beatmatcher247

Full Audioholic
I'm partial to Synchrony Ones. While I was impressed by some of Focal's speakers, I really liked how these performed off-axis in comparison. Definitely worth putting in some time auditioning.

While hard for a newbies like me to describe I will say what I love about them. They stay very well composed at 0dB reference level when crossed over properly being driven by higher than rated power @ 385W. I like to really rock out the instrumental guitar solo sections of songs from All That Remains, Lynard Skynard... the guitar notes sound so sweet. They hang in the air so thick and deep you feel like you can reach out and touch them. I can hear their fingers sliding across the strings and never thought that sort of detail was even possible. I like them so much I even find myself listening to music way out of my comfort zone just to hear how beautifully they reproduce the sound of instruments. String quartets, opera, saxophone, cellos, organs, piano concertos, are all examples of music I would never listen to before that I now find myself really enjoying.

Even with an unlimited budget I wouldn't change my mains. I knew when I auditioned them with a few of my favorite songs that these were the speaker for me. I went and listened to a bunch of different speakers from Paradigm, Focal, Klipsch, and KEF and was pretty underwhelmed. The more speakers I listened to, the more clear it became that the PSB's were exactly what I needed.

I can probably put you in touch with another fellow AH'er that got me really great pricing on my amplifier and PSB set. Send me a private message if you would like his contact information.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can probably put you in touch with another fellow AH'er that got me really great pricing on my amplifier and PSB set. Send me a private message if you would like his contact information.
He seems extremely busy lately though.;)

Maybe due to everyone gearing up for the Holiday season? :D

I still don't have my last pair of KEF 201/2 yet. :D
 
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