new svs PC12-NSD... underwhelmed.

J

jmvdude

Audiophyte
Hello.

As the title says, I just got in a new SVS PC12-NSD to go with my Denon 2311 receiver and Klipsch RF-62 II L+R. This is my first time having a sub for my home stereo. My room is large, opening up to a kitchen and a sloping roof to a second story game room. I primarily bought the sub for music, although it will be used with movies as well.

There are definitely qualities of the sub that I like, it seems to reproduce a wide range of frequencies and does deliver clean sound... but basically its not enough. When listening to A Perfect Circle's "Thomas", I have my normal listening volume and adjust the sub to where I feel I want it and it does okay... and then 2/3rds of the way through the song a repeating low bass punch kicks in, and while I hear it, it doesn't give the impact I was expecting. (This expectation was mostly set by listening in my car (a modest 8" sub) and from listening on a friends yamaha system.) Unless I lower the gain from my previous setting at this point the limiter light is on any time the low note occurs.

My crossover is set to 80hz on the receiver, the sub's crossover is disabled. I used 6 positions with Audessy MultiEQ to set up parameters, and then set my speakers to 'small' in the menu. I experimented with several different positions for the sub, and wound up with it on its side about 4 inches from the back of my couch (listening position).

I'm trying to decide what to do now. I don't want to keep something I spent $800 on (a lot to me) when its not what I want... Should I consider upgrading to a PC12-Plus (which costs a WHOLE lot to me)? Or a different brand altogether? Or maybe my expectations for a sub are unrealistic and I should try and be content with my klipsch speakers (which I like a lot).

Any input is welcome, thanks.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Man that sucks! But, lets make sure it is truly insufficient before upgrading the puppy.

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My room is large, opening up to a kitchen and a sloping roof to a second story game room.
Exactly what would you say is the volume of space you are trying to fill. It could very well be underpowered for proper pressurization of this space.

(This expectation was mostly set by listening in my car (a modest 8" sub) and from listening on a friends yamaha system.) Unless I lower the gain from my previous setting at this point the limiter light is on any time the low note occurs.
Bass heads have a tendancy to run their subs hot. I know my car sub is way hotter than my home sub. Could it be that you have become used to inaccurate but "punchy" bass (car and friends system) and therefore the accurate bass in you home feels inadequate?
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Looking at the SVS website, the NSD is a sealed design. By physics of box design this sub is not meant for earth shattering bass. But, it will be accurate, as you have noted. The plot shows the NSD is no slouch, it is most likely insufficient for your listening space's size.




Talk to the SVS guys! They are very helpful and will not needlessly push you into a higher dollar value sub.
 
J

jmvdude

Audiophyte
agarwalro - yes it is possible that I have become used to 'punchy but inaccurate' bass. I guess what I'm hoping for is punchy and accurate... I don't know if that's feasible for me or not.

I really have no idea how to calculate the volume of the room... its big though.

The PC-12 NSD is not a sealed design... it has a sizeable port (4" i think) on the top of the cylinder.

I talked with SVS both yesterday and today, and ended up with the conclusion that the NSD is just not capable of delivering the levels i'm looking for. The person I spoke with today did suggest that the PC-12 Plus would offer a lot more in the way of SPLs, but he did not push me in that direction.

I suppose I'm a bit afraid to order another sub without hearing it first now. Based on all my reading I expected to be blown away by the NSD, but as it is I don't really want to listen to music now because I just end up disappointed with my purchase.



EDIT: did some measuring. Front wall is 11', right side wall is 18', and back wall is 23' before turning into an open kitchen. Ceiling starts at 8' on the right side wall and immediately begins sloping upward for the 2nd story.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Hi. I can relate to how badly it sucks to get something that you have high expectations about, and then have it fall short. The NSD might not be enough for your room, but perhaps it is - hopefully the knowledgeable people here see this thread and chip in.

Do you have an SPL meter? If so, I recommend running a frequency sweep (you can download them online if you don't have one) from ~20 Hz up to maybe 100 Hz. I have a CD that outputs frequencies at small intervals (each track is a different frequency), so I can play each one and measure the output level. I can then plot them up to look at how flat the response is at my listening position. You may notice peaks and dips in the response that are most likely caused by room interactions, and some of those dips might be the cause of your dissatisfaction. Placement and/or equalization can help with those.

The first thread that I ever started has a picture of my first measurements here. I've done new ones since I bought my SVS back in 2007 (and, boy, have the prices gone up!), but it's just to show what I was talking about above.

I agree that moving up to a $1300 sub is a big financial step. Hopefully we can help you get that NSD set up so that it makes you happy, or find you a better solution in your price range.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
There are a couple of very likely possibilities here:

1) It sounds as though you have a very large volume of space that you're trying to pressurize. The sub doesn't "know" where your listening room ends and your kitchen begins. It doesn't "adjust" for an open ceiling or a sloped roof. So far as the sub is concerned, it is trying to pressurize the entire open space, and it sounds entirely likely that the 400 Watt 12" PC-12NSD simply doesn't have enough output to pressurize your entire open space. And to be honest, from the sounds of it, I think you might have been expecting a bit too much. I'm not saying you're wrong at all to have expected a lot. SVSound's subs are extremely impressive - especially at the price - but they are not magic. They can't overcome physics. People ooh and ahh about them and deservedly give them praise, but most people also have a much smaller volume of space that they are trying to fill.

So it's about managing expectations. I can totally understand how you were expecting more based on what you might have read. But it is also too much to expect a 400 Watt 12" subwoofer to fill a huge volume of space with high SPL bass.

2) It's also entirely possible that you are simply sitting in a bass null at the particular frequency where you are expecting to really get hit in the chest based on what you've heard in your car. You say that you've tried several positions, so this might not be the reason for your disappointment. But at the same time, it is only certain, specific frequencies that will form a standing wave with nulls and very large peaks. If you happen to be sitting in the null of that particular frequency, no amount of additional output is going to solve that problem! The only solution is to move (either the sub or your seat) out of the null, or to use a second subwoofer to create more even frequency response throughout your room at multiple seating locations.

I would recommend before you lose all hope and before you declare the PC12-NSD to be a failure for your usage that you try "crawling for bass".

Put the subwoofer in the spot where you normally sit (push your seat out of the way first, obviously :p ). Now play a repeating bass sweep. I like to recommend using a THX DVD or Blu-ray and using the last Audio test in the THX Optimizer, which is a sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz. Just put that chapter on repeat so that the sweep plays over and over continuously.

Now crouch down so that you are at seated height. In this crouched position, go and listen in the spots where you are reasonably able to put the subwoofer. Try moving around a little bit - even just a few inches can make a difference. Listen for a spot where the entire THX bass sweep sounds smooth and even in loudness all the way from the top to the bottom. With just one subwoofer, this might not be possible, but try to find the spot where the majority of the sweep is evenly loud from top to bottom. Mark that spot, put your subwoofer there and then push your seat back into position and have a listen. With your positions reversed, you should hear the same even, smooth sweep at your seat now!

3) You might also want to try decoupling your subwoofer. In most cases, people find that the bass actually seems a bit quieter when they decouple their subwoofer because they are used to the subwoofer physically shaking the floor, which adds noise and distortion to the room, but makes the bass seem louder - even though it's less accurate and full of noise. But in some cases, the physical shaking of the room adds enough distortion at just the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) frequencies to interfere with the bass coming from the sub and works to cancel out some of the bass energy, much like the null of a standing wave. Decoupling greatly decreases the physical shaking of the room due to the movement of the sub when it is placed directly on the floor. By eliminating the physical shaking, you get "tighter", cleaner, more accurate bass that has less distortion. Like I say, this might actually make it seem quieter. But yours might also be a case where the added distortion is making things seem quieter, in which case, decoupling will help. I recommend the Auralex SubDude for SVSound's PC cylinder subs. The feet of the cylinder subs fit perfectly onto the corners of the 15" square SubDude ;)

Again, to be completely honest, I think this is a case of simply having too large a space to fill for the capabilities of the sub. But try the other potential solutions first because they cost very little or nothing (except time), so why not, right?

If you discover that the PC12-NSD simply cannot produce enough output for your liking, then it's time to get another sub. You could simply add a second PC12-NSD, but you would need to co-locate them (ie. put them directly side-by-side) in order to really gain anything in the way of increased output. If the PC12-Plus costs too much, you might want to consider one of the HP (High Output) subs from Rythmik. The FV15HP in particular offers very similar output and performance to the SVSound PC12-Plus at a lower price.

To be blunt, if it were me, I'd want a pair of PC13-Ultra subs in a room that size, but obviously, the price for that goes WAY up from your $800 mark. The simple fact is that you might not be able to achieve the sort of output that you are looking for within your budget. Sadly, there's no magic. When you've got a large volume of air, it takes a ton of energy and surface area to make it move! I'm sorry that the PC12-NSD wasn't up to your expectations, but I hope that you'll be able to get past the emotional disappointment and realize that having limitations doesn't mean that the product or the brand are crap. It's just a matter of physics. And you wouldn't blame a Honda Civic's engine for not having the power to make an M1 tank go 100 mph ;)
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
First Reflection is on the right path here. You are trying to pressurize a large volume of air and simply are not moving enough air to meet your expectations.

I would recommend adding more subs rather than upgrading with a higher priced one. To pressurize the space like you want, I would recommend 4 sub woofers properly placed. Knowing your budget, though, you may want to look at DIY. :)
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Quote:
My room is large, opening up to a kitchen and a sloping roof to a second story game room.
[/QUOTE]Exactly what would you say is the volume of space you are trying to fill. It could very well be underpowered for proper pressurization of this space.[/QUOTE]

If your room is really large, you might require a 2nd sub can you provide some measurements
 
J

jmvdude

Audiophyte
There are a couple of very likely possibilities here:

1) It sounds as though you have a very large volume of space that you're trying to pressurize. The sub doesn't "know" where your listening room ends and your kitchen begins. It doesn't "adjust" for an open ceiling or a sloped roof. So far as the sub is concerned, it is trying to pressurize the entire open space, and it sounds entirely likely that the 400 Watt 12" PC-12NSD simply doesn't have enough output to pressurize your entire open space. And to be honest, from the sounds of it, I think you might have been expecting a bit too much. I'm not saying you're wrong at all to have expected a lot. SVSound's subs are extremely impressive - especially at the price - but they are not magic. They can't overcome physics. People ooh and ahh about them and deservedly give them praise, but most people also have a much smaller volume of space that they are trying to fill.

So it's about managing expectations. I can totally understand how you were expecting more based on what you might have read. But it is also too much to expect a 400 Watt 12" subwoofer to fill a huge volume of space with high SPL bass.

2) It's also entirely possible that you are simply sitting in a bass null at the particular frequency where you are expecting to really get hit in the chest based on what you've heard in your car. You say that you've tried several positions, so this might not be the reason for your disappointment. But at the same time, it is only certain, specific frequencies that will form a standing wave with nulls and very large peaks. If you happen to be sitting in the null of that particular frequency, no amount of additional output is going to solve that problem! The only solution is to move (either the sub or your seat) out of the null, or to use a second subwoofer to create more even frequency response throughout your room at multiple seating locations.

I would recommend before you lose all hope and before you declare the PC12-NSD to be a failure for your usage that you try "crawling for bass".

Put the subwoofer in the spot where you normally sit (push your seat out of the way first, obviously :p ). Now play a repeating bass sweep. I like to recommend using a THX DVD or Blu-ray and using the last Audio test in the THX Optimizer, which is a sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz. Just put that chapter on repeat so that the sweep plays over and over continuously.

Now crouch down so that you are at seated height. In this crouched position, go and listen in the spots where you are reasonably able to put the subwoofer. Try moving around a little bit - even just a few inches can make a difference. Listen for a spot where the entire THX bass sweep sounds smooth and even in loudness all the way from the top to the bottom. With just one subwoofer, this might not be possible, but try to find the spot where the majority of the sweep is evenly loud from top to bottom. Mark that spot, put your subwoofer there and then push your seat back into position and have a listen. With your positions reversed, you should hear the same even, smooth sweep at your seat now!

3) You might also want to try decoupling your subwoofer. In most cases, people find that the bass actually seems a bit quieter when they decouple their subwoofer because they are used to the subwoofer physically shaking the floor, which adds noise and distortion to the room, but makes the bass seem louder - even though it's less accurate and full of noise. But in some cases, the physical shaking of the room adds enough distortion at just the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) frequencies to interfere with the bass coming from the sub and works to cancel out some of the bass energy, much like the null of a standing wave. Decoupling greatly decreases the physical shaking of the room due to the movement of the sub when it is placed directly on the floor. By eliminating the physical shaking, you get "tighter", cleaner, more accurate bass that has less distortion. Like I say, this might actually make it seem quieter. But yours might also be a case where the added distortion is making things seem quieter, in which case, decoupling will help. I recommend the Auralex SubDude for SVSound's PC cylinder subs. The feet of the cylinder subs fit perfectly onto the corners of the 15" square SubDude ;)

Again, to be completely honest, I think this is a case of simply having too large a space to fill for the capabilities of the sub. But try the other potential solutions first because they cost very little or nothing (except time), so why not, right?

If you discover that the PC12-NSD simply cannot produce enough output for your liking, then it's time to get another sub. You could simply add a second PC12-NSD, but you would need to co-locate them (ie. put them directly side-by-side) in order to really gain anything in the way of increased output. If the PC12-Plus costs too much, you might want to consider one of the HP (High Output) subs from Rythmik. The FV15HP in particular offers very similar output and performance to the SVSound PC12-Plus at a lower price.

To be blunt, if it were me, I'd want a pair of PC13-Ultra subs in a room that size, but obviously, the price for that goes WAY up from your $800 mark. The simple fact is that you might not be able to achieve the sort of output that you are looking for within your budget. Sadly, there's no magic. When you've got a large volume of air, it takes a ton of energy and surface area to make it move! I'm sorry that the PC12-NSD wasn't up to your expectations, but I hope that you'll be able to get past the emotional disappointment and realize that having limitations doesn't mean that the product or the brand are crap. It's just a matter of physics. And you wouldn't blame a Honda Civic's engine for not having the power to make an M1 tank go 100 mph ;)

I did try bass crawling last night, however I was using some music rather than the THX test. I'm not sure I know how to get to the chapter you're talking about. Anywho, I did decide on a new position. At first, I felt like it was a big change, but upon returning to it later I was still kind of underwhelmed.

In terms of upgrading... a PC12-Plus would be cheaper than adding another PC12-NSD. I'm not sure which would be best for me.
 
tattoo_Dan

tattoo_Dan

Banned
Hello.

it doesn't give the impact I was expecting. (This expectation was mostly set by listening in my car (a modest 8" sub)
Any input is welcome, thanks.
my input is don't compare a car subwoofer sound to any home audio/home theater sub sound,in any way.

it's apples and oranges.
 
R

robc1976

Audioholic
Exactly what would you say is the volume of space you are trying to fill. It could very well be underpowered for proper pressurization of this space.[/QUOTE]

If your room is really large, you might require a 2nd sub can you provide some measurements[/QUOTE]I agree, I would add another sub and also maybe some bass traps and try to close off the hallway if possible. Also is your listening area 50% of the length of the room mark?? If it is try geting it closer to 38% because at 50% it will have nulls. For $800.00 you could get a elemental design 15" A5-350...I have one and it fills a 30 X 27 foot room with ease, but I am still adding another one so the bass equals out in the room.
 
R

robc1976

Audioholic
should try and be content with my klipsch speakers (which I like a lot).

Any input is welcome, thanks.
Rf-62II wouldn't be good as a full range speaker at all.....I have a entire 9.2 Klipsch reference series and wouldn't try that...But I agreee....LOVE my klipsch speakers.
 
selkec

selkec

Audioholic
I also reccomend the Elemental designs A5-350. I have one in a 14x28x9' room and it can do some serious pressurizing. I also was use to car bass. So when I got this I was very happy. This thing is a beast. Im a bass head and this sub is great. With just one I have hit 124db.
 
R

robc1976

Audioholic
I also reccomend the Elemental designs A5-350. I have one in a 14x28x9' room and it can do some serious pressurizing. I also was use to car bass. So when I got this I was very happy. This thing is a beast. Im a bass head and this sub is great. With just one I have hit 124db.
I agreee...this thing can almost hurt you LOL!!! I have 2 in a 30 X 30 room. With one though I had the gain control at about 30% and it was at 85-86DB
 
J

jmvdude

Audiophyte
I've been thinking more about upgrading to a higher spec'ed SVS sub...

the plus is almost twice the price of the NSD, but then the ultra is not that much more than the plus... at the $1700 price point, is there anything out there 'better' than the PC13-Ultra? It seems like if I am willing to bite the bullet to go for the plus might as well just go all in and go for the ultra, but I need to make as sure as possible that its something i'll be happy with.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I've been thinking more about upgrading to a higher spec'ed SVS sub...

the plus is almost twice the price of the NSD, but then the ultra is not that much more than the plus... at the $1700 price point, is there anything out there 'better' than the PC13-Ultra?
If you can handle the size and weight, check out the Elemental Designs A7-450. There is no way a PC13 is going to keep up with that beast. I think it would have a hard time keeping up with the A7-350, which is significantly less expensive. For 1700 you could also get dual Epik Empires, which will have bigtime mid bass and upper bass output, easily more than the PC13 Ultra.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
If you can handle the size and weight, check out the Elemental Designs A7-450. There is no way a PC13 is going to keep up with that beast. I think it would have a hard time keeping up with the A7-350, which is significantly less expensive. For 1700 you could also get dual Epik Empires, which will have bigtime mid bass and upper bass output, easily more than the PC13 Ultra.
except that the ED sub is of lesser quality on everything but SPL. it's not all about SPL. i should know, because i was the one who commissioned the A7-450 in the first place. i thought it would be my ultra killer. i was wrong.

i also fell for the hype. "it's best sub i've ever heard" i read. i forgot to ask, "what other subwoofers have you heard?"
hype that's exactly what you are typing, have you had an ultra? an A7-450? or the other subwoofers in your post to compare?
last i checked, ED didn't have 3rd party ground plane measurements of their subs ala recent Audioholics tests, so everything about their subs is based on?

i've had TWO A7-450's and SIX PB13Ultras.
 
Last edited:
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I'm with mike c on this one. I was extremely impressed with the PB13-Ultra DSP that I heard. And there's little reason to think there'd be any sort of large difference between the PB and the PC cylinder version.

There is indeed a lot more to the performance of a subwoofer than just SPL. So far as I am concerned, the Ultra SVSound subwoofers outperform pretty much everything at or below their price point, and they put to shame a lot of subs that are above their price point as well.

What is particularly wonderful in a case such as the OP's is that the new Sledge amps are essentially indestructible. If you reach the output limit, the DSP processing will prevent any damage and limit distortion to very reasonable limits.

There's still a chance that in a large enough room, you might reach the output limits of the PC13-Ultra DSP. But I can assure you that if you do so, you're not going to find a subwoofer that costs less that can perform any better. There might be a sub that can play a bit louder, but it would be doing so with seriously compromised quality.

If you're willing to pay the cost of the PC13-Ultra DSP, I can wholeheartedly recommend it! After hearing the quality and output capabilities of the PB13-Ultra myself, I can attest that it's basically impossible to settle for anything less!
 
J

jmvdude

Audiophyte
I'm with mike c on this one. I was extremely impressed with the PB13-Ultra DSP that I heard. And there's little reason to think there'd be any sort of large difference between the PB and the PC cylinder version.

There is indeed a lot more to the performance of a subwoofer than just SPL. So far as I am concerned, the Ultra SVSound subwoofers outperform pretty much everything at or below their price point, and they put to shame a lot of subs that are above their price point as well.

What is particularly wonderful in a case such as the OP's is that the new Sledge amps are essentially indestructible. If you reach the output limit, the DSP processing will prevent any damage and limit distortion to very reasonable limits.

There's still a chance that in a large enough room, you might reach the output limits of the PC13-Ultra DSP. But I can assure you that if you do so, you're not going to find a subwoofer that costs less that can perform any better. There might be a sub that can play a bit louder, but it would be doing so with seriously compromised quality.

If you're willing to pay the cost of the PC13-Ultra DSP, I can wholeheartedly recommend it! After hearing the quality and output capabilities of the PB13-Ultra myself, I can attest that it's basically impossible to settle for anything less!
thanks for the input (and from Mike C as well)... i think this may be the best way for me to go. I was very pleased with the NSD's sound qualities, it just couldn't deliver at the volumes I was looking for. I may have to wait until I get my next paycheck though....
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I think you'll be very, very pleased with the PC13-Ultra DSP. What I got - just my own experience - was the sense that there really wasn't better bass to be had for anything that could be considered a "reasonable" amount of more money. It's that great sense of satisfaction that you really are getting "the best". And while there's certainly still debate to be had about other very capable subs that are out there, I don't think you're ever going to feel as though you took a wrong step with the PC13-Ultra DSP.

You'll understand once you hear it :)

My own thinking while I was listening was, "OK. This is pretty much as good as it gets. The only place left to go from here is even more output. And for that, I'd just get a second Ultra."

It IS expensive. But it's also worth the money. Value isn't just a low price. It's getting your money's worth. And once you have the PC13-Ultra DSP in your home, I don't think you'll be questioning at all whether you got what you paid for.

I can wholeheartedly recommend it. And I think you're going to be very glad that you paid the extra few hundred dollars. There's just something priceless about getting that sense that you really got the absolute best that there is. And I think that satisfaction is well worth an extra paycheck ;)

Enjoy! I think you're gonna have a perma-smile on your face for a while after it arrives :D
 

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