What is Best for Me? 2 x UPA-1 or one XPA-2?

[walter duque]

Yes. Forgive the grilles. My son is two and a half and carries a tornado in his back pocket.

These are some awesome looking speakers. What a great job you did. I wish I had a gift like that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We all have our opinions, but if I would own your speakers I would not use any other amp then an amp made in USA, I would not feel comfortable using a chinese made product. 90% on speakers and 10% on amplification is just not right for me. Check out ATI, they make great amps and are an OEM for a few boutique brands.

I do love my ATI amps.

My Salon2s are driven by ATI AT3002, KEF 201/2s are driven by AT3005, Orions driven by AT6012.

Made in USA
7 Yrs Warranty
Authorized ATI dealer
ATI make some amps for Lexicon, Mark Levinson, JBL, Outlaw Audio, and Earthquake Sound, probably otghers.
ATI amps are "fuseless". You won't have to replace the fuses.
ATI amps are conservatively rated, meaning they will output more than what they specify.

AudiogoN Seller items: Classic_audio_parts

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I only want help from someone who knows more than me. You are talking down to me and it is not required.
AGAIN Again do you even know the speakers I have? They are not 10% THD at 100w!

GranteedEV just has a lot more knowledge of speakers and amps than most of us, but he forgets that sometimes.

I only know a fraction of what Grant knows of this hobby, but based on what I've read in the past, most speakers are at least 10% THD @ 100 watts.

I also know that most of the time, my speakers will not get 100 watts of power from my amps. They probably only get 20 watts, but they produce 90dBC.

 

[Warpdrv]

Yes. Forgive the grilles. My son is two and a half and carries a tornado in his back pocket.

LOL

Outta site outta mind - Id gather...

Love the Clearwaves -- you did an outstanding build there. I would love to see those redesigned with a RAAL ribbon tweeter - I might consider a build....

Nice to hear your willing to outlay the case on a pro amp and do some A/B comparisons, I think that is the best way to know yourself if you prefer one amp over another...

IMO I think that amps can and do have a sonic difference - albeit very slight in some instances. I know everyone will pull out the "show me the differences in measurements" card but some things just can't be explained or heard in measurements.... Science is one thing, trial and error is another.... I just don't give a cr@p what these people say... Spend enough time with enough different equipment and you'll know yourself... I won't be one to tell you what to buy...

Best of luck on your choice

 

[walter duque]

IMO I think that amps can and do have a sonic difference - albeit very slight in some instances. I know everyone will pull out the "show me the differences in measurements" card but some things just can't be explained or heard in measurements.... Science is one thing, trial and error is another.... I just don't give a cr@p what these people say... Spend enough time with enough different equipment and you'll know yourself...

I agree with you on that 100%.

 

[Pyrrho]

I'm actually not the OP. See first post on the last page. I have different speakers, but the same question.

Sorry. In that case, the higher power of the XPA-2 may be useful.

 

[Pyrrho]

...

IMO I think that amps can and do have a sonic difference - albeit very slight in some instances. I know everyone will pull out the "show me the differences in measurements" card but some things just can't be explained or heard in measurements.... Science is one thing, trial and error is another.... I just don't give a cr@p what these people say... Spend enough time with enough different equipment and you'll know yourself... I won't be one to tell you what to buy...
...

They can sound different when they are not level matched for precisely the same volume (which is enough by itself to explain why so many people believe they hear differences between different amplifiers) or when one is out of spec (i.e., malfunctioning) or when one is used beyond its design capabilities (which happens more often than some people realize, as some speaker manufacturers do not properly rate their speakers for nominal impedance) or when one is driven beyond its limits (e.g., clipping).

Now, if there is a real audible difference, people can hear it in a properly conducted double blind test reliably. There is usually a measurable difference, even between different examples of the same model or between the right and left channels of the same amplifier, and if people had the magical abilities that they pretend to have, they would constantly be complaining that their right and left channels sound different, and that they can never get them to sound the same. This is particularly true when one considers a system in a real room, where the sounds coming from one speaker will never be precisely the same as from the other, even if they were both driven from the same channel of an amplifier (i.e., even if given an absolutely identical input signal). The fact that one rarely hears audiophiles complaining about the difference between their different channels proves absolutely that they hear far fewer differences than they typically imagine.

It is worth remembering that people often believe they hear a difference when they are told that something has been changed that they believe matters to the sound, even when nothing was changed at all. It is a very curious thing about human perception. So, without a proper test, someone believing they hear a difference is meaningless.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know everyone will pull out the "show me the differences in measurements" card...

I won't pull out those cards.

See my poker face?

As my 8 yr old daughter would say, "Not I!"

I see the points made by both sides, and since this is just a fun hobby, it's cool to agree to disagree.

If we can tell the difference ---- that's great.

And if we can't tell the difference ---- that's cool too.

No harm done whatsoever.

 

[lsiberian]

Before you buy an amp make very sure your placement is proper. Moving your speakers around will probably make a bigger difference than adding an amp. While manufacturers have recommendations you are the one who has to hear it.

Obviously pro audio is able to deliver more wattage to the end user because they are built for that purpose. The best Pro amp series for home use IMO is the Yamaha P Series because they require no fan mods, have good build quality and are efficient. That said there are drawbacks to using pro amps. The first is no 12v triggers. The second is sometimes(not always) a more complicated setup. A pro amp will likely have less customer service than say an Emotiva. Small business is the backbone of our economy because sometimes service is worth the extra price.

If you really want power every amp will have similar characteristics pro or not.

If you really do need gobs of power you aren't gonna beat a pro amp. There is nothing better for the task. Remember it takes doubling your amps power for a noticeable difference in performance.

Before you do any of this check your placement.

 

[PENG]

I agree with you on that 100%.

Walter you must know by now I respect your opinions but I also don't give a crap about what some people say, e.g. the one you quoted. They keep forgetting amps are designed and built based on science and engineering knowledge and they are designed and built to amplify the input signal faithfully. And yes everything that affect what we can hear (20 to 20,000 hz for most people with no hearing loss) are measurable by today's advanced instruments such as scopes and meters. They got us to the moon and back years ago. If people choose to believe in hearsays and subject themselves freely to Placebo effect that's their perogative. There are still people who believe the earth is square and that you can't just base on satellite photos because not everything can be measured or photographed.

 

[GranteedEV]

IMO I think that amps can and do have a sonic difference - albeit very slight in some instances.

I agree with you 100%

To me the key word is slight (closer to irrelevant for many of us) and at that point it's just a matter of priorities

I do however think the most notable differences between good electronics is in digital signal processing alogithms IE audyssey / ARC. These have very different curves they aim for so of course they impact the sound very significantly compared to source direct.

To me the biggest difference between amps is still nonlinearities from being driven outside their limits so I'm all about high wattage, but as I stated earlier, while amps can and do introduce nonlinearities, speakers do so much more quickly and readibly audibly. I think what a lot of people think is amp clipping is more close to an overdriven tweeter gasping for breath or overdriven woofers.

Your S8s, for example, have around the same bass radiating surface area as OP's T8s. You've said a few times now, that crossing them over to superior subs at around 100+hz makes a big difference in how they sound at high levels. To me that's the speaker nonlinearity you're hearing that I think, by addressing, helps improve sound quality. I don't think amps solve speaker nonlinearities.

Anyways I think all of us in this thread agree that we just want OP to get the best bang for his buck with a good, noticible difference.

 

[PENG]

I also know that most of the time, my speakers will not get 100 watts of power from my amps. They probably only get 20 watts, but they produce 90dBC.

I shared similar experience but I thought it may be worth pointing out the fact that certain media, depend on the music contents, may have transients that require 500W or more to produce >110 dB in a larger room, say 20X30 ft.

That said, I couldn't stand those baseless claims (I consider those unintentional/honest BS) about how their amps were making a huge difference even at low listening level. May be by "low" they actually meant >85 dB or so but then that would be a little ridiculous. The funny too is that quite often those posters have speakers that really couldn't do much better than 100 dB for long even if the amp is not the limiting factor.

I use amps only because I enjoy classical music. Even a high power AVR will struggle at times, such as some symphonies that use bass drums a lot. I don't want to hear distortion during those moments.

 

[walter duque]

Walter you must know by now I respect your opinions but I also don't give a crap about what some people say, e.g. the one you quoted. They keep forgetting amps are designed and built based on science and engineering knowledge and they are designed and built to amplify the input signal faithfully. And yes everything that affect what we can hear (20 to 20,000 hz for most people with no hearing loss) are measurable by today's advanced instruments such as scopes and meters. They got us to the moon and back years ago. If people choose to believe in hearsays and subject themselves freely to Placebo effect that's their perogative. There are still people who believe the earth is square and that you can't just base on satellite photos because not everything can be measured or photographed.

PENG
There is no need to get hostile. Just because I prefer the sound of Cinepro, Threshold and Belles amps over most other amps. Maybe these amps have design flaws, who knows. Specs to me don't mean much. The best sounding speakers I have ever owned where the Fulton Premier and they where build by ear.

 

[PENG]

PENG
There is no need to get hostile. Just because I prefer the sound of Cinepro, Threshold and Belles amps over most other amps. Maybe these amps have design flaws, who knows. Specs to me don't mean much. The best sounding speakers I have ever owned where the Fulton Premier and they where build by ear.

You misunderstood, I was not being hostile to you at all. I was referring to the comments in your quote, not your own. Even then I did not mean to be hostile to that person either. I simply used similar words he used, i.e. "don't give a ......." etc.

You, I always respect, and I fully agree with you to have lots of power, but perhaps for different reason. My only reason is classical music that I listen to a lot. For you, I know you need power all the time.

 

[walter duque]

My only reason is classical music that I listen to a lot. For you, I know you need power all the time.

[/QUOTE]
We're good. I just like that extra power at times (not always), now and then I do need them 15 minutes of glory.

 

[lsiberian]

GranteedEV just has a lot more knowledge of speakers and amps than most of us, but he forgets that sometimes.

I only know a fraction of what Grant knows of this hobby, but based on what I've read in the past, most speakers are at least 10% THD @ 100 watts.

I also know that most of the time, my speakers will not get 100 watts of power from my amps. They probably only get 20 watts, but they produce 90dBC.

I could probably find out how much power they take if I cared to match the driver, but 100 watts is usually more of a peak sound than an RMS. The average person listens at 60 db. THX is 75 db. Meaning the max at he listening position is 90 db for the average person or 105 for the THX. Now you have to consider your distance from the speaker, but generally speaking. every meter is 3 db less than the speakers rating. so if you sit 20 feet away it's about 6 meter. meaning you would need 108 for average volume and 118 for THX. On a standard tower that means you need around 100 watts to reach average peak volume and 1000 watts(not really gonna happen) to reach THX. If you want THX level volume your options are pretty much pro audio stuff. Of course if you sit closer things get easier, but at poorer bass performance.

I hope this helps explain why 120 db is a benchmark in performance.

This is why unless you are using pro-audio level drivers real 100 watt amps are normally all that is needed because if you are going above that too much you are going to be saying goodbye to the speakers. I suggest the OP at least get an SPL level for their preferred listening level.

 

[Warpdrv]

Walter you must know by now I respect your opinions but I also don't give a crap about what some people say, e.g. the one you quoted.

I'll take that as you don't give a cr@p what I say.... OK

I'm not an engineer and haven't been to the moon, but as G-EV noted I completely implied the word slight - and I meant exactly that... on that note I would love to see the different measurements between a tube amp, class d and a solid state amp just to see what the potential differences are in perhaps a square wave measurement or something along those lines - just to see what the measured differences are and how that translates to the signal put out to the speakers... Being completely open minded and honest here, no mal intent towards the discussion.. I would truly like to see the differences in the measurement - something I have never seen on any forum ever - I am truly very interested at this point...

FYI - I'm in absolutely NO WAY a snake oil purchaser - no would I ever buy into that idea ever in my life. I can only know what I hear in the differences.

I agree with you 100%

To me the key word is slight (closer to irrelevant for many of us) and at that point it's just a matter of priorities

I do however think the most notable differences between good electronics is in digital signal processing alogithms IE audyssey / ARC. These have very different curves they aim for so of course they impact the sound very significantly compared to source direct.


Anyways I think all of us in this thread agree that we just want OP to get the best bang for his buck with a good, noticible difference.

I find that the more you invest in the utmost in revealing speakers it truly starts to translate up the river of electronics involved in the chain... Some people will also state unequivocally that electronics are all the same, and from my experience it couldn't be farther from the truth...

I can feed my Pioneer receiver a 2 ch HDMI FLAC signal and toss it out to my amps to my Salk M7's (totally lifeless flat collapsed soundstage) - or I can extract that same 2 ch audio from the HDMI signal toss it out to my Parasound 2100 with HT bypass and it portrays a completely different soundstage with the push of a button, level matched with meter. Throw a really good quality DAC in the mix and its a whole new presentation... I in all honesty am not sure how you would measure that - but there is no question from the countless people that I have had listen to the same thing - it was world of difference.

Seriously push of a button -
I'd be more then happy to A/B that scenario for anyone that is interested.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Can you be more specific? Ive been on this site enough to know some swear by pro amps, but some do not. I willing to save and get what would work best for my speakers. But if I can use a processor and amps that are not a fortune that works for me....

Sure.
Nothing wrong with pro amps at all if one has a need for them. But, to worry about amps before speaker capability if foolish in my opinion. Can you really utilize the full power of an amp while not worrying about the speaker itself distorting well before the amp reaches its potential?
Do you really need all that power or just a nice thing to have?
How loud is loud enough?

 

[GranteedEV]

I can feed my Pioneer receiver a 2 ch HDMI FLAC signal and toss it out to my amps to my Salk M7's (totally lifeless flat collapsed soundstage) - or I can extract that same 2 ch audio from the HDMI signal toss it out to my Parasound 2100 with HT bypass and it portrays a completely different soundstage with the push of a button, level matched with meter.

It's only conjecture, but it sounds to me like your amps are low sensitivity while your receiver has weak "throw away" preouts. I honestly don't have a clue what exactly is happening, but it sounds like this is one of those case of operating outside its limitations. I'm not convinced it's just "2 channel preamp" magic. Obviously if there's a major audible difference, it's something.

the other possibility, is that your receiver is doing something funky to the phase relationship between the speakers, warping your soundstage. Did you set speaker trims and distances manually by any chance?

I think at the end of the day, any comparision done at home is always subject to countless unknown, unidentified sources of error.

Throw a really good quality DAC in the mix and its a whole new presentation...

I'm not gonna lie, this one's a pretty dubious claim, unless the DAC is the audiophile sort that has built in EQ to appeal to people.

 

[PENG]

I'll take that as you don't give a cr@p what I say.... OK

Hello Warp, I had no idea it was you being quoted by Walter. I just read your post and realize I made a big mistake by not reading the fine print.

Of course you have "slight" in it. My issue is with claims that used expressions like "huge", "day and night", "even in low volume" etc.

No excuse but I was multitaking, trying to help someone set up an Android tablet at the same time....


Sorry!